Norway killer describes shootings

[ACP]

From the mouth of a homicidal maniac... learning how to kill from domestic and internaitonal terrorists, and young victims too paralyzed with fear to attack him while he was reloading.

Lessons?

1) madmen plan. count on it. he even brought water knowing the killing would make him thirsty.

2) don't freeze. I'm sure everyone on this site already knows that.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/anders-behring-breivik-trial_n_1440166.html?ref=world


"...He couldn't remember large chunks of the 90 minutes he spent on the island before surrendering to police commandos. But he recalled some shootings in great detail, including inside a cafe where he mowed down young victims as they pleaded for their lives.

Some teenagers were frozen in panic, unable to move even when Breivik ran out of ammunition. He changed clips. They didn't move. He shot them in the head.

"They cannot run. They stand totally still. This is something they never show on TV," Breivik said. "It was very strange..."


"...One man tried to attack him. "I push him away with one hand, and shoot him with the other," Breivik said.

Another man tried to "dodge the bullets by moving in zigzag, so that I couldn't shoot him in the head," he said. "So I shot him in the body instead, quite a few times."

Breivik said he deliberately used "technical" language in order to keep his composure.

"These are gruesome acts, barbaric acts," he said. "If I had tried to use a more normal language I don't think I would have been able to talk about it at all."

Earlier, Breivik said he took to the Internet to glean information, studying attacks by al-Qaida militants, Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

He paid particular attention to the World Trade Center bombing in New York and McVeigh's 1995 attack on an Oklahoma City government building, which killed 168 people and injured over 600.

Breivik said he also read more than 600 bomb-making guides.

He called al-Qaida "the most successful revolutionary movement in the world" and said it should serve as an inspiration to far-right militants, even though their goals are different..."

 

[Mp7]

(a true religious, nationalist, racist, xenophobic nutjob.)

Take into account he was high on amphetamins
when doing this.

sadly i believe there is no way for a society to brace against
terrorism like this. He was a suicide attacker, who survived.

And since the "what if there were armed people there" crowd will chime in in a sec,
i believe he would have chosen a different, softer target instead.
Imagine he had driven his carbomb into a school during lunch break......

Sad as it is, this event made norwegian society stand together even closer.
He failed at everything, except killing those innocent people.

 

[Deanimator]

In places like Norway... and New York and Chicago, people are taught that they don't need to be able to defend themselves (much less carry a firearm) because the police will "protect" them.

The fundamental lesson to take away from this atrocity (and most other violent crimes) is that police "protection" of individuals is a LIE.

If your life is in danger RIGHT NOW, you'd better either have a FOOLPROOF escape plan, or be willing to do ANYTHING it takes to neutralize the threat, with a firearm or whatever is at hand, be it a pair of scissors or a bottle of acid.

Instead, here as at Virginia Tech and elsewhere, we see people being nothing more than reactive targets.

I may not be able to stop somebody from murdering me, but damned if I'm going to make it easy.

 

[rem44m]

I'll second the "what if there were armed people there"

Because if there were I'm sure that the death toll would have been much smaller. Sure it won't stop someone from opening fire but it may stop them faster if people start shootin back!

I agree with Deanimator.

 

[Hacker15E]

The standout part was simply those who froze with fear.

Unfortunately, none of us knows how we'll react when faced with a life-or-death situation, but I'd like to think I'd do something other than just stand there.

 

[Doghandler]

The standout part was simply those who froze with fear.

Unfortunately, none of us knows how we'll react when faced with a life-or-death situation, but I'd like to think I'd do something other than just stand there.

Play it smart. Use the slowed down time, concentrated vision, and quiet to your advantage.

 

[Hacker15E]

Play it smart. Use the slowed down time, concentrated vision, and quiet to your advantage.

Great in theory...but in practice, you really never know how you're going to react.

During the first week of the Iraq war, there was a considerable amount of anti-aircraft fire. It was a positively terrifying experience to fly into...and it was interesting to see how my squadronmates reacted when they had to face real danger.

What was strange was that previous personality was rarely a good predictor of someone's actions in the face of danger. Some of the people who were aggressive chest-thumpers when flying back stateside had their personalities considerably muted by the exposure. Similarly, I saw some of the quietest, most meek flyers become absolute ruthless killers when the iron started flying.

In some cases, pilots were able to fall back on training to overcome their fears and it did not impact their performance of their duties. For others, it did impact their duty performance.

 

[Doghandler]

Great in theory...but in practice, you really never know how you're going to react.

...

How big was that cafe? I can launch a chair across the room with fair accuracy and if there are enough empty chairs consider it semiautomatic. Now it the time to make your move, Hacker!

 

[wagon.driver]

Interesting to note that passengers during the 9/11 hijackings also froze, except for the plane that went down in PA -- those people fought back. Next time something like this happens in Norway I wonder if people will freeze or if they will fight back.

Having recently been in a situation where I really thought I might be seriously injured by an angry would-be assailant, I admit I froze. I totally froze and shook like a leaf. Thankfully, he just needed to scream his lungs out for a minute, threaten to kill me and then he split. I do not carry.

 

[Sky]

Similarly, I saw some of the quietest, most meek flyers become absolute ruthless killers when the iron started flying.

Same, same, here. One of the biggest moma's babies I ever met ended up (after being shot down) one mean SOB you could depend on when it got hot and ugly.

 

[mgmorden]

In places like Norway... and New York and Chicago, people are taught that they don't need to be able to defend themselves (much less carry a firearm) because the police will "protect" them.

Having debated with them many times, its not so much this, as it is the following:

They have a misguided, but genuine belief that more guns in the hands of the people increases the frequency of this sort of thing happening. In their mind, they prefer fewer incidents even if they have absolutely no recourse if it DOES happen, as opposed to more frequent incidents where they DO have the means to do something about it (again, I don't believe that more guns increasing the frequency, but often times what people BELIEVE is more important that the actual truth).

Part of the problem too as that many have a very odd notion of what I've come to call the "magical uniform". Once you strap on a police or military uniform you are a trained professional capable of dispatching trouble with ease. Mere mortals without such attire a bumbling children who will shoot up innocent bystanders or will have their guns taken from them and used against them.

Having shot with both police and military before, I'd say that most are no better marksmen than the public at large. You have your specific people in there that make a point of getting good at it, but most (particularly law enforcment) seem to do just enough to qualify and no more. The exceptions are typically the firearms enthusiasts amongst the groups who would be shooters with or without the uniform. Most recreational shooters that I know get FAR more trigger time, but they lack that magic uniform, so they're deemed incompetent.

 

[Doghandler]

Interesting to note that passengers during the 9/11 hijackings also froze, except for the plane that went down in PA -- those people fought back. Next time something like this happens in Norway I wonder if people will freeze or if they will fight back.

Having recently been in a situation where I really thought I might be seriously injured by an angry would-be assailant, I admit I froze. I totally froze and shook like a leaf. Thankfully, he just needed to scream his lungs out for a minute, threaten to kill me and then he split. I do not carry.

Sometimes becoming still and quiet is the right and effective thing to do. Now is the time to breath in your situational awareness even if it's only for a single breath. The shaking like a leaf business will never go away but it can be controlled --- check that, 9mmEpiphany will not like that --- the shaking like a leaf part can be redirected and focused - harnessed if you will.

Will Norwegians fight back next time? I hope they are training their children how to throw chairs as we speak.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's a big mistake to assume that only disarmed Europeans or east coasters are going to freeze up in these circumstances. Freezing up is entirely NATURAL and virtually everyone will do it absent training. The mind is racing to try to deal with this impossible and horrible thing happening in front of the eyes. It no longer knows what to do with the body. I've caught myself doing it before, even when there's just sudden yelling or a sharp crack. The answer appears to be training, to rewire your mind and body. Absent that, whether you have a firearm or not there is a pretty good chance of being totally ineffectual facing this kind of worst case scenario.

And frankly trying anything to counter a armored foe who has a long gun and knows how to use it is dicey. A mere concealed handgun against that is a bit like throwing rocks at a tiger. You really have to be both lucky and self-aware enough to get in a good shot from the back of the head, remembering of course to give no warning. That tends to cut against the grain not only of human nature but of a lot of actual self defense training where you're taught to yell "stop" and avoid "shooting to kill." All that is out the window in these spree killer cases.

It is an exceptional person who can instantly shift gears from shopping for socks to blowing the back of a man's head off. The best soldiers can do it, not many others. The most I'd hope I'd be able to do is get to cover or at least MOVE fast enough to avoid getting hit.

Thankfully though these situations remain extremely rare. We're much more likely to be dealing with the usual miscreants, muggers and nogoodnicks who are highly likely to high tail it when you draw.

 

[Sky]

If declared sane, Breivik could face a maximum 21-year prison sentence or an alternate custody arrangement that would keep him locked up as long as he is considered a menace to society. If found insane, he would be committed to psychiatric care for as long as he's considered ill.

thought that interesting; very civilized.

 

[Jim NE]

(a true religious, nationalist, racist, xenophobic nutjob.)

You only got one word that matters - "nutjob".

People's politics and theology don't turn them into murderers. There are 12,000 or so murders in the US every year that rarely have anything to do with those things you mentioned.

 

[Crusader103]

Unfortunately, none of us knows how we'll react when faced with a life-or-death situation

Why do so many people say this?

Granted, I have faced a life or death situation (several, actually), but even before I faced my first I knew how I was going to react. Everyone can. The experience of a life or death situation is not what determines how an individual will respond, but how they prepared or failed to prepare for it. Despite the fact that I have faced the real possibility of death, I am not of the mindset that those who have not are incapable of designing, and fully knowing, their response beforehand.

In this tragic situation very few apparently fought back. At least one had the courage to do so though it is unknown if he ever had reason to fear for his life before. The culture in Norway is such that prepared defense is rare. If it was not, whether or not the citizens were armed, the devastation might not have been as great. I guess the same is true in America. Despite those on this board, few have ever contemplated their actions in such a situation. If they were to do so, and back up that forethought with training and practice, they would know exactly how they would respond.

We don't say, "Experience, Skillset, Toolset." We say, "Mindset, Skillset, Toolset."

Experience proves the above but is not a substitute for it.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Very sad event. A while back I took a force on force training class. I didn't do as well as I would have liked to. My though is that by taking something like this you can train a bit more realistically and hopefully minimize freezing should you be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[ArthurDent]

All of this is out of character for Norway

What I would like to add to this discussion is that many people here and in the US media seem to completely misunderstand the culture in Norway.

I am half Norwegian, but All American. As a boy from the USA, I do not fully understand Norwegian culture, but my exposure through my family has taught me a few things.

First of all, let's get it out of the way. Norway is VERY left. Farther left than any Democrat in the US would ever dream of supporting. They are very proud of their social safety net and welfare system, and they pay stupid levels of tax to help support it. They send me happy notes when a Democrat gets elected here. This does NOT matter in the current discussion.

Next, if you can believe Wikipedia, they have a fairly high rate of gun ownership by civilians... 11th highest in the world, so they are not nearly so anti-gun as folks have supposed.

The main point I'd like to make is that as a people, Norwegians are incredibly non-violent.

Things may have changed some since I was over there, but it seems to me that this entire incident is completely out of character for the country. In the US, we shrug when another gunman goes mad in a crowded place. In Norway, violent crime of this sort is unheard of. I'm not saying that there is no crime, but I don't think there has ever been anything like this before.

Life is very good there. It is possibly the most child-friendly place I have ever been... they dote on their children and obsess on the well-being of all young people. Many do seem to have a fascination with death metal music, but I am not aware of much acting-out on those themes.

So... Yes, I imagine no one would react. They probably couldn't believe what was happening... it is so far from anything they had probably ever thought about. Why would anyone be prepared for something that couldn't conceivably happen?

To me, this whole incident is horrific in at least three ways.

Obviously, the violence is deplorable in its own right.

The thing that has my mind reeling is how someone who was raised in that environment could do this. Drugs? Theft? Vagrancy? Sure. Mass murder? It really does not fit.

Finally, I imagine the whole incident was as unsettling to the country as a whole as it would be for the US if a meteorite took out several states. I really don't think they have ever had to develop the mental apparatus to deal with something like this.

I grieve for all who have been impacted.

 

[LAK]

Some teenagers were frozen in panic, unable to move even when Breivik ran out of ammunition. He changed clips. They didn't move. He shot them in the head.

"They cannot run. They stand totally still. This is something they never show on TV," Breivik said. "It was very strange..."

This is the irrational fear that causes a mental paralysis, a freeze up. When you can not think rationally, you can not act rationally.

 

[Cosmoline]

Fear of a man about to kill you with a rifle is entirely rational. There's nothing irrational about it. Higher brain functions are far too slow for this situation. You have to move on "muscle memory" from training.

 

[BullfrogKen]

During the first week of the Iraq war, there was a considerable amount of anti-aircraft fire. It was a positively terrifying experience to fly into...and it was interesting to see how my squadronmates reacted when they had to face real danger.

What was strange was that previous personality was rarely a good predictor of someone's actions in the face of danger. Some of the people who were aggressive chest-thumpers when flying back stateside had their personalities considerably muted by the exposure. Similarly, I saw some of the quietest, most meek flyers become absolute ruthless killers when the iron started flying.

In some cases, pilots were able to fall back on training to overcome their fears and it did not impact their performance of their duties. For others, it did impact their duty performance.

An excerpt from Shots Fired in Anger, by Lt Col John George:

Whenever an outfit goes into battle for the first time its personnel will automatically reclassify themselves as to military competence and general reliability. Some, whom the Commander thought to be the finest men he had, will turn out worthless. Some whom he might have thought worthless are liable to become the heroes of the action. It is not a rare occurrence for the drunken, riotious element in a command to provide it with its very best fighting men.​

 

[rajb123]

Has norway learned that more armed citizens could have stopped this and minimized the damage and loss of life? Apparently not.

 

[LAK]

Cosmoline

Fear of a man about to kill you with a rifle is entirely rational. There's nothing irrational about it

True. That is a rational fear that any rational person would have. Rational fear is knowledge. It is not the mental and physical manifestations of paralysis.

If you live in a coastal town and you have word that a tsunami will hit the beach in an hour and you decide to leave right away you are exhibiting normal behavior. As a rational person you have a rational fear. Tsunami are often devastating and will likely kill you.

This is rational fear. If someone suggests that you are panicking, or somehow alittle nutty for leaving as soon as you can, you could suggest they have no rational fear present. Some might say stupid, idiotic etc, but it is really a lack of rational fear.

Higher brain functions are far too slow for this situation. You have to move on "muscle memory" from training

False. Or rather, not necessarily so. And I could recount a few personal experiences to the contrary.

But lets just say that if you are in the grip of complete mental and physical paralysis - irrational when you should act to save or attempt to save your life - you will do as these described persons did. Absolutely nothing.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There's a lot of talk about "fight or flight" in self defense circles, but in more nuanced discussions the responses listed are three: fight, flight or freeze. That's been discussed in the medical literature for several years now:

http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/45/5/448
Does "Fight or Flight" Need Updating?

H. Stefan Bracha, M.D., Tyler C. Ralston, M.A., Jennifer M. Matsukawa, M.A., National Center for PTSD, Department of Veterans Affairs, Pacific Islands Health Care System, Spark M. Matsunaga Medical Center, Honolulu, Hawaii, Andrew E. Williams, M.A., Department of Psychology, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, Hawaii, and Adam S. Bracha, B.A., Biomedical-Research Consultant, Honolulu, Hawaii

Psychosomatics 45:448-449, October 2004
© 2004 The Academy of Psychosomatic Medicine
==============================

And there are some who argue that there are four potential instinctive responses to sudden, unexpected stimulus - flight, fight, freeze or fright, as in the letter above.

One way we as serious students seek to learn how to deal appropriately with our instinctive responses is through training and practice, especially the kind of stress inoculation that comes through force on force training. It's human nature to be scared sometimes. But we overcome human nature pretty reliably in a lot of areas in our lives. For example, the late psychiatrist Dr. M. Scott Peck said that it was human nature for us to go to the bathroom in our pants ... but most of us don't do that regularly, because we trained ourselves not to.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

And since the "what if there were armed people there" crowd will chime in in a sec,
i believe he would have chosen a different, softer target instead.
Imagine he had driven his carbomb into a school during lunch break......

I think that the off duty cop that he shot was armed hence why he was the first target.