NRA exploiting Heller?

[Jdude]

The OP pissed me off enough that I am sending 100 dollars to the NRA today. Then on payday, I'll send the other 100 dollars I originally planned.

 

[Waitone]

Heller was a gamble with the court as it is currently constituted. One bad pizza by one justice and the 2nd amendment would be in trouble. We needed a showdown case to break the legal logjam. It was a huge risk to force a showdown with the current court lineup. Thankfully the court broke its most recent patterns and voted in favor of constitutionally constrained government IN THIS CASE. The previous week experienced a cascade of dubious decisions. Now that we have a favorable decision the NRA is quite right in pressing the attack. The NRA was also right in trying to obstruct Heller. Heller was a gamble.

 

[siglite]

The NRA was also right in trying to obstruct Heller. Heller was a gamble.

Astonishing. Simply astonishing. We finally get a second amendment case that isn't some crack dealer trying to beat a weapons charge, and ... wow.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Tough Love RH.

Reality, SuperNaut, and an attempt to communicate with alien beings in the fading hope that there is intelligent life amongst them.

Does no one else recognize that the constant, incessant, meanspirited picking at the NRA weakens and eventually will destroy the only chance we have unless other wealthy lawyers like Robert Levy and Alan Gura come to our rescue at their own expense?

People who won't spend $35 a year to save their own necks, and who create the lamest excuses possible to justify that behavior, are certainly not going to be of any use. Neither are people who think that taking a friend shooting or sending a few e-mails accomplishes anything like what the NRA does.

Nevertheless they pick, criticize, whine, complain, and demand. Pathetic.

 

[Titus]

Good use of irony!

 

[Tribal]

The OP pissed me off enough that I am sending 100 dollars to the NRA today. Then on payday, I'll send the other 100 dollars I originally planned.

Is there any way I could insult you, perchance? I like how you deal with hostility!

 

[leadcounsel]

Frankly despite the fact that the 2A got a big 'W' in the win column, the NRA was wise not to push this based on the VERY narrow margin of victory and the Kennedy swing vote factor. While it turned out good for the 2A, we HAD a win in DC and it could have turned out terribly badly for the 2A.

If this were a slam dunk I would agree with the OP, but it wasn't and I cannot blame the NRA for their caution in endorsing a challenge to the DC verdict.

 

[hso]

The Heller ruling would have probably gone against Heller if the SCOTUS had the same judges at the time it was heard as when the lawsuit was filed. NRA's stated purpose in opposing it was to prevent it from reaching the SCOTUS as it was composed at the time because of the perceived risk of a negative outcome for gun owners (remember Chicago and NYC and SF all begging DC to take the hit and drop the issue before it could get to SCOTUS just a couple of months ago because of their fear of an individual right decision). Once the composition of the SCOTUS shifted the risk was reduced and the NRA supported the effort.

In other words, the NRA changed tactics when the conditions on the field changed like any reasonable contestant.

I haven't heard the begging call yet, but you can bet I'll get it. They'll be too late though, because I've already cut them a check and mailed it in.

 

[tinygnat219]

Well,

I just sent 50 bucks to the NRA-ILA AND 50 bucks to the CATO Institute for getting this thing rolling.

 

[CajunBass]

The OP pissed me off enough that I am sending 100 dollars to the NRA today. Then on payday, I'll send the other 100 dollars I originally planned.

While I can't match you dollar for dollar, my wife and I are going to send something to the NRA this week.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Okay, the OP obviously opened a can of worms and stands contrite.

For the record, I am, and was before Heller vs. DC began, an NRA member. I just didn't appreciate the call at dinner time in an obvious ploy to cash in on my elation over Heller on the very day of the verdict by an organization that originally opposed Heller going forward, no matter how calculating we now all say they were.

In the meantime, if I'm going to send more funds, it'll be to the Illinois State association already filing suit in Chicago (or to whatever Gura and Levy takes on next). The NRA gets more of my support when they actually file rather than talk. Now that may be tomorrow, but let's wait and see.

 

[NC Dave]

I understand that some people don't "get" the NRA and how EVERY legal fight and decision in the US is a calculated move.

That being said, I am upgrading my yearly membership to a NRA Life Member today. I'll remain a member of the NRA Second Amendment Task Force and will continue to be a regular contributor to the NRA-ILA and NRA-PVF. I will continue to be a sponsor for Friends of the NRA events in my area and will encourage everyone I meet who is not a member to join.

 

[Rachen]

So, first Ron Paul, now the NRA?

Seriously, when are folks going to stop bashing and going against the people who REALLY care about our civil rights? Now folks say there are no friendly faces for Campaign 2008. Well there was one really friendly face, but so many of you betrayed him that he is dropping out of the race now. Now, you are going to bash the NRA now. Another organization that cares about your gun rights more than anybody else.

Seriously, the only reason why the antigunners would prevail is because we are tearing our own infrastructure apart with all this bickering, suspicions and tin foil hat nonsense. The antigunners are probably laughing right now reading this thread, thinking to themselves "once they weakened their own NRA with their stupidity, we will reconquer, and Brady will prevail", and laughing. And I bet they hate this Rachen character for trying to bring all of you together and end this nonsense. This is reminding me of the great ugly feud between the Guomingdang and the Communist Party in 1930s China. And it weakened us to the point that the Japanese can invade us without fear of large resistance.

This "I am not supporting this candidate or organization" crap is going to do us ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD. The only ones you can blame for not having a good candidate to vote for this election is YOURSELVES. Because we had a great candidate, and we trashed him. And if thats not enough, you are going against the NRA now.

SERIOUSLY. CUT THIS NONSENSE ALREADY! WE ALL KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO NATIONS WITH FACTIONS WHO DO NOT GET ALONG. GO AHEAD AND GOOGLE "LUGUOCHIAO, SEPTEMBER 18TH, 1937".

 

[USSR]

While it is commendable that so many of you are supportive of the NRA (as am I), I would just like to remind everyone how vitally important the composition of the SCOTUS in the future is, as there will surely be further court cases to define what the "reasonable limitations" on our individual right are. One of the two presumptive nominees of the two major parties will be the next POTUS, so PLEASE consider whether you want a new president who will appoint justices like those who sided with the majority, or those who sided with the minority.

Don

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Sending Money

We be sending money.

I would send it to Robert Hairless, but he'd just forward it to the NRA.

*Sigh*

So I guess I'll just have to send it to them myself.

Oh, and I seriously hope the NRA & NRA-ILA are being opportunistic. Seize the moment. Strike while the iron's hot.

Robert, your beer credit is stacking up in my part of the world.

 

[ArmedBear]

I just didn't appreciate the call at dinner time in an obvious ploy to cash in on my elation over Heller on the very day of the verdict by an organization that originally opposed Heller going forward, no matter how calculating we now all say they were.

Here's the deal. NRA has already filed other suits because of the decision. They can use money.

Read this: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_06_22-2008_06_28.shtml#1214522143

The most IMPORTANT thing right now is to seize the moment and file more suits. The NRA is doing exactly that.

If nobody does it, then this decision will mean nothing more than the elimination of the total ban on defensive firearms in DC. That's great for those who live in DC and who can figure out how to buy a firearm given GCA68 and no gun stores in DC. But it matters none to anyone else unless it is used as precedent for more cases.

A winner will join with a winning strategy even if they may have disagreed initially. NRA is acting like a winner, here. Let's do the same, and support those who have a shot at winning.

I wish to offer this bit of ancient English wisdom, in the form of a dialogue from days of old when knights were bold:

King: This is Sir Lancelot from the Court of Camelot! He is a very brave and influential knight and my special guest today.
Wedding guest #1: He's killed my auntie!
King: No, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who. We are here to witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond of holy wedlock. Unfortunately, one of them, my son Herbert, has just fallen to his death. But I don't want to think I've lost a son, so much as gained a daughter! For, since the tragic death of her father--
Wedding guest #2: [Shout from back of hall] He's not quite dead!
King: Since the near-fatal wounding of her father--
Wedding guest #2: [Shout from back] He's getting better!
King: [Discreet nod to soldier] For, since her own father, who, when he seemed about to recover, suddenly felt the icy black hand of death upon him.
[Scuffle at the back]
Wedding guest #2: [Shout from back] Oh, he's died!
King: I want his only daughter to look upon me as her own dad, in a very real, and legally binding sense.

 

[Valkman]

I got an offer (as a Patron Life Member) to bestow a Legacy Life Membership on a family member for $300. I think a 7 year-old granddaughter is about to become a Life Member!

The NRA is going to really need our support now, and RH you rock!

 

[rainbowbob]

We squeaked by with a 5-4 ruling, and I think, FIVE YEARS AGO, when Heller was starting, O'Connor would have smacked this down, 4-5 against us.

And I saw some jackass talking head on "Tru TV" bemoaning that very fact and wondering how many "innocent lives will be sacrificed as a result" :banghead:

 

[Michael Thomson]

NRA Files Second Amendment Cases in Illinois, California

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=11220


Friday, June 27, 2008


Fairfax, Va., June 27-Following up on yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment protects a private right to possess firearms that is not limited to militia service, the National Rifle Association of America today filed five lawsuits challenging local gun bans in San Francisco, and in Chicago and several of its suburbs.

“The Supreme Court held yesterday that “the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans,” said NRA chief lobbyist Chris W. Cox. “These lawsuits will ensure that state and local governments hear those words.”

The San Francisco lawsuit challenges a local ordinance and lease provisions that prohibit possession of guns by residents of public housing in San Francisco. NRA is joined in that suit by the California Rifle and Pistol Association and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

The Illinois cases challenge local laws in Chicago, which has a handgun ban nearly identical to the law struck down yesterday in Washington, D.C. The other Illinois suits challenge handgun bans in the suburban towns of Evanston, Morton Grove and Oak Park.

All five suits raise the issue of the application of the Second Amendment against the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, known in constitutional law as “incorporation.” Because Washington, D.C. is not a state, incorporation was not specifically addressed in yesterday’s Supreme Court decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, but the decision did repeatedly equate the Second Amendment to the First and Fourth Amendments, which have applied to the states for 80 years.

“In Washington, D.C. or in any state, whether you live in the housing projects or a high end suburb, you have the right to defend yourself and your family at home,” Cox concluded. “These laws all deny that right, and NRA will not rest until they are all struck down.”

-NRA-

Established in 1871, the National Rifle Association is America’s oldest civil rights and sportsmen's group. Four million members strong, NRA continues its mission to uphold Second Amendment rights and to advocate enforcement of existing laws against violent offenders to reduce crime. The Association remains the nation's leader in firearm education and training for law-abiding gun owners, law enforcement and the military.

 

[MT GUNNY]

On Cam and Company last night, there is a segment called man on the street, he was talking to an anti gun individual that said "Have you seen the NRA's Main building its so big it scares the begebees out of me to think their so powerfull.

I for one as soon as money allows will become a 5 year member instead of 1 year at a time, Mainly to help with all the litigation they are about to embark on (Chicago and such) and hopefully make that building so big the Brady Campaign #$^* their foundation!!

I strongly Urge you to tune in to Cam and Company at www.nra.org
7pm mountain time.

or for Sirius subscribers Patriot channel 144 same time.

Cam Edwards is the host they have talk back which you can send in a text message or call in, Make your case with him!

 

[TexasRifleman]

I hope they are ALL opportunistic and use this case to gather money from as many sources as possible.

At this point I don't care if NRA and GOA take credit for inventing the Internet and Cheeseburgers if it will raise money for the many MANY legal fights coming.

 

[rainbowbob]

All five suits raise the issue of the application of the Second Amendment against the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, known in constitutional law as “incorporation.” Because Washington, D.C. is not a state, incorporation was not specifically addressed in yesterday’s Supreme Court decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, but the decision did repeatedly equate the Second Amendment to the First and Fourth Amendments, which have applied to the states for 80 years.

Beautiful! Here is where it will get really interesting and DC v Heller will prove to be the much-needed foot in the door.

Predictably, Heller left many unanswered questions that may take decades to settle. I predict attorneys now graduating from law school will spend their entire careers on these questions and retire as old men before they are all answered. But it's a start.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

For that matter, the real fighting just started. I hope the NRA, GOA, SAF and other organizations have been opportunistic as heck; because they are about to really start blowing through the cash now.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Odd that you are still mad when the actual lawyers who had to fight the NRA (Levy and Gura) have not only made peace with the NRA; but have stated publicly that their help has been critical on Heller.

Now if you still want to be mad at the NRA, it is certainly within your rights. You won't be the first gun owner to cut off his nose to spite his face.

We didn't want to get involved in WWII, either. . . but when we did, we kicked ass--but we didn't do ALL the fighting ourselves. We had allies.

Before anyone steeply criticized the NRA for being hinky on Heller, initially, stop and ask yourself this simple question,

"How many anti-gun laws and restrictive gun laws have been written over the course of our history as opposed to pro-gun and non-restrictive measures in regards to the Second Amendment?

The answer is obvious. Legislators and judges have overwhelmingly ruled against the Second Amendment, one little brick at a time. Given the liberal makeup and majority of the Court at the time, why would ANY SANE organization that is pro-gun want to put it all on the line with a group that simply does not think like you?

Once the case went forward and the Court balance was in our favor, the NRA's support is more than likely what made the difference--especially with the lone swing voter (Kennedy).

And now the NRA wants to take Heller and stick up Daley's backside--along with many others.

It takes money.

Jeff

 

[strat81]

I said:

Alito replaced O'Connor who, towards the end of her tenure was barely a moderate on a good day. We squeaked by with a 5-4 ruling, and I think, FIVE YEARS AGO, when Heller was starting, O'Connor would have smacked this down, 4-5 against us.

Siglite then asked:

Wait, so Heller was a bad idea?

I left the Interwebz for a while but while I was gone, TX1911fan replied:

That's not how I read his point. The point made was that, yes, the NRA initially opposed Heller, and for some very good reasons that, had we not had a change on the court, would have looked brilliant in hindsight. So, while their opposing Heller now looks stupid, they DID NOT have a crystal ball, and, we can all admit, had O'Connor still been on the Court, may very well have been the correct action to take. It is very fortunate that they delayed it long enough for a more conservative Court to come along. Did they KNOW that would happen? Nope, it just worked out that way, but thank heavens it did.

And TX1911fan has interpreted my statement exactly the way I intended.

Don't get me wrong, I am please with the Heller decision. However, five years is a LOOOOONNNGGG time. The NRA erred on the side of caution with not getting involved back then.

Five years ago, GWB wasn't in for his second term and O'Connor was still on the court. Imagine if Kerry won in 2004. Imagine if the Senate was excessively liberal in 2006 when Alito was confirmed.

A win is still a win, even at 5-4. But 5-4 is close enough that plenty of folks had doubts about which side Justice Kennedy would take.

How close will it be when the next round of cases go in front of Circuit Courts? Others more intelligent than me have said that is part of the reason why nothing major has been challenged in the 9th Circuit - it's full of liberals.

Like everyone else, the NRA picks their battles. Five years ago, in their eyes, Heller was not a good battle because SCOTUS was a bit more to the left than it is today.

To be clear, I am not attacking the NRA with my position. I think they were right five years ago, and I think it's good they had a change of heart and weren't too stubborn by sticking with their original decision.
-strat81, NRA Life Member