Number of rounds used in defense going up?

[trackskippy]

YouTube for one, has a pretty broad variety of actual CCTV clips of what actually goes on in the "real world", and what people actually encounter, and what you might realistically expect, no imagination needed.

Active Self Protection has a bunch of good ones, and does a pretty good job of giving an after action breakdown of things, good and bad.

I think you need to be realistic with yourself as to what your actual "real world" skills really are with what you choose to carry. In a lot of those clips, there are often a good number of rounds fired, and not always a lot of people falling down. Pistol rounds generally suck, accuracy under a lot stress helps, but pistol rounds still suck.

Do you have enough in the gun to deal with what you get, or what you're told you'll only ever need? Keep in mind too, those "3 rounds, at 3 feet, in 3 seconds" has two sides to it. It doesn't specify "who" the winner is. You do work hard to make sure your skills are up to things to help you there, right?

 

[Smaug]

Here in the Houston area we are seeing home invasions, thefts/carjackings while pumping gas at convenience stores, catalytic converter thefts, and just general armed robberies being done by 3-5 or more individuals as the norm. The more "organized" crimes are done by gangs of crooks and not lone assailants like was prevalent in the past. So you better be packing more rounds if you hope to make it out on the other side safely.

I have one of each type of carry gun: high capacity (P365) and low capacity. (LCR)

I prefer shooting the LCR, but now and then, like the OP, I see a YouTube video where it was a good thing the defender had more than 5 rounds. This one (LINK) comes to mind where a motorcyclist reasonably needed more than 5 rounds. (skip to 0:39 to get past the jibba-jabba and ads) He COULD have done it with five, but that's not a lot of misses in this scenario. Imagine trying to do a revolver reload in that situation. Even with a speed loader. God forbid I had to do it with speed strips...

The guy was not doing spray & pray, but not shooting slowly & deliberately, either. Aside from unnecessarily breaking cover, the guy was pretty tactically sound, considering that stress. I think I'd have squatted down behind the bike to engage the first guy with cover, then just stay there and send lead at the other two, but that's with the benefit of this video for hindsight.

One could argue that 0 shots were needed if he just gave up his bike and ran, not much risk of taking on ballast if he did that, I think. Police aside, (since they don't carry revolvers any more) are revolver concealed-carriers less likely to engage in a firefight?

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I have one of each type of carry gun: high capacity (P365) and low capacity. (LCR)

I prefer shooting the LCR, but now and then, like the OP, I see a YouTube video where it was a good thing the defender had more than 5 rounds. This one (LINK) comes to mind where a motorcyclist reasonably needed more than 5 rounds. (skip to 0:39 to get past the jibba-jabba and ads) He COULD have done it with five, but that's not a lot of misses in this scenario. Imagine trying to do a revolver reload in that situation. Even with a speed loader. God forbid I had to do it with speed strips...

The guy was not doing spray & pray, but not shooting slowly & deliberately, either. Aside from unnecessarily breaking cover, the guy was pretty tactically sound, considering that stress. I think I'd have squatted down behind the bike to engage the first guy with cover, then just stay there and send lead at the other two, but that's with the benefit of this video for hindsight.

One could argue that 0 shots were needed if he just gave up his bike and ran, not much risk of taking on ballast if he did that, I think. Police aside, (since they don't carry revolvers any more) are revolver concealed-carriers less likely to engage in a firefight?

First, I really wish we as a community would stop saying high or low capacity. If you think that those against us are not lurking and reading this to use against, think AGAIN. Both are standard capacity for what they were designed for. Using it that way defeats the capacity argument of the anti's. Play the long game, not the short game. Educate.

The rest, well that's internet quarterbacking that extrapolates. You do you, but that situation isn't the norm where I live. Did they or not teach you risk assessments in the Army even as a Reservist? Everything even when I was in, was done using risk assessments that the commander would then decide on. During Floyd and BLM, the situation escalated. But now? Not the norm here in my AO.

 

[Kleanbore]

During Floyd and BLM, the situation escalated.

How did that "escalation" affect civilian defensive incidents?

But now? Not the norm here in my AO.

"The norm" means as little as "the average".

 

[UncleEd]

Not the norm here in my AO.

Had to look up AO as an acronym. Literally found
more than a hundred answers. Back in the day,
my ME would frown on using AO. And the ladies
at church might also object.

 

[TomJ]

The problem with these types of threads is that we tend to view things through the lens of our past and current experiences. People living in a high crime, gang infested city, those living in a small town with a negligible violent crime rate and those hiking in areas where wildlife is a threat are all going to have different view points, concerns and needs. For example many people in the small SE Wisconsin town we moved to a year and a half ago have never dealt with gang problems or have had experiences like I've had such as walking out my front door into an armed robbery, where four thugs in a car were robbing someone. Carrying a revolver vs 4 thugs is not optimal just as carrying a 9mm with hollow points to defend yourself against grizzlies is not the best choice. What I don't understand in reading this thread is people who are rude towards others with different experiences. It's not as if someone else's choice of what they carry has any impact on what they carry.

 

[defjon]

The problem with these types of threads is that we tend to view things through the lens of our past and current experiences. People living in a high crime, gang infested city, those living in a small town with a negligible violent crime rate and those hiking in areas where wildlife is a threat are all going to have different view points, concerns and needs. For example many people in the small SE Wisconsin town we moved to a year and a half ago have never dealt with gang problems or have had experiences like I've had such as walking out my front door into an armed robbery, where four thugs in a car were robbing someone. Carrying a revolver vs 4 thugs is not optimal just as carrying a 9mm with hollow points to defend yourself against grizzlies is not the best choice. What I don't understand in reading this thread is people who are rude towards others with different experiences. It's not as if someone else's choice of what they carry has any impact on what they carry.

Realistically though, 4 armed thugs does a revolver vs 9mm really matter?

 

[TomJ]

Realistically though, 4 armed thugs does a revolver vs 9mm really matter?

Of course the odds against 4 armed thugs are not with you regardless of what you carry, but the reality is that this situation is not uncommon in high crime cities such as Chicago. The question then becomes what is the best of the bad options you have.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

The problem with these types of threads is that we tend to view things through the lens of our past and current experiences. People living in a high crime, gang infested city, those living in a small town with a negligible violent crime rate and those hiking in areas where wildlife is a threat are all going to have different view points, concerns and needs. For example many people in the small SE Wisconsin town we moved to a year and a half ago have never dealt with gang problems or have had experiences like I've had such as walking out my front door into an armed robbery, where four thugs in a car were robbing someone. Carrying a revolver vs 4 thugs is not optimal just as carrying a 9mm with hollow points to defend yourself against grizzlies is not the best choice. What I don't understand in reading this thread is people who are rude towards others with different experiences. It's not as if someone else's choice of what they carry has any impact on what they carry.

The problem with this is that those living in higher crime areas are the ones that want to push their world as the only narrative to exist. However I've always gone by the golden rule of live and let live, meaning you don't tell me what I should be doing defensive-wise, and in return I won't be telling you what you should be doing either.

It's a lack of mutual respect.

 

[TomJ]

The problem with this is that those living in higher crime areas are the ones that want to push their world as the only narrative to exist. However I've always gone by the golden rule of live and let live, meaning you don't tell me what I should be doing defensive-wise, and in return I won't be telling you what you should be doing either.

It's a lack of mutual respect.

Unless I'm wrong it looks like you're a new member here. If you're here for a length of time you'll see that those who believe you need a 15 round magazine and those who believe a revolver is enough can both be just as vocal. In regards to live and let live, that was my point.

 

[trackskippy]

This is a pretty good clip on a home invasion. You decide if what you normally do would have been any different.

The big question is, can you get through the whole thing without losing your smoke. This guy went through the whole gunfight with his in his mouth.

At least he had his gun on him. Bet he starts carrying a reload.




As Ive said before, where you live really has no bearing on what you might get. If and when you get it, it is what youve got, and you have to deal with it. Youre either prepared or you aren't. What I dont get is, if youre going to go to the trouble and bother to carry a gun at all, why wouldnt it be the one you shoot best with, and gives you the best chance at "anything" you might run into?

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Seems I remember you advocating that the EZ is the only weapon to carry for the older crowd. Backing it up with your own diatribe about it...

You remembered it all wrong and that is another thread with an entirely different topic that doesn't equate to this thread. Diatribe indeed.

Fighting chance to operate a gun with debilitating arthritis or no chance at all versus round counts in defensive guns, good cognitive dissonance and a thread slide attempt. What good is a gazillion rounds if it jams and he can't clear it because of the pain in his joints? Which by chance isn't the topic of this thread, hint, hint.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Unless I'm wrong it looks like you're a new member here. If you're here for a length of time you'll see that those who believe you need a 15 round magazine and those who believe a revolver is enough can both be just as vocal. In regards to live and let live, that was my point.

Then my apologies. And where I live definitely makes a decision as to what and how I carry as far as round counts go. My risk assessments are very low and I stay away from problematic areas which is why it's so low.

 

[citizenconn]

Recently I watched a newscast of gang members having some kind of pow wow showing off their handguns and I noticed that many were waiving pistols with very noticeably extended magazines. I presume that most of those guys are not "trained" gunfighters but many probably have experience in some sort of shooting conflict plus being criminals they always have the element of surprise. My point is that I once thought that a skilled shooter with cool head and a 5-6 shot revolver could defend themselves from most situations but after watching that video I am not so sure anymore.

I know the Houston area where I live is probably an extreme example, but those extended mags on Glocks with a Glock switch making it fire full auto is definitely becoming the norm here for ripoff crews and gangbangers. There are news stories weekly about the Houston police confiscating guns or getting into gunfights with the Glock switches illegally brought in from China (that's what the news is claiming.)

The upside is these idiots have about zero handgun skills so many times the pistol jams or they are empty and hit no humans within the couple seconds it takes them to unload the 33 round mags. The downside is there is sometimes collateral damage and they seem to like to do drive-bys where they literally spray into crowds and manage to hit someone, often fatally and many times this years it has been children.

There have been 2-3 very high profile shootouts with the cops against thugs with the full auto Glocks this year, with video, and the cops are not fairing well in these situations.

I thwarted an attempted carjacking this last month with my 1911 against 3 thugs and luckily did not have to fire any shots because they did not anticipate their intended victim being armed and scattered like chickens when they saw the muzzle of the gun. With this increase in violence I have started taking my 1911 and a 13 round 9mm compact, 3 mags for each, with me whenever I go into Houston. I also have a bug out backpack with trauma kit and a folding AR pistol with several mags beside me in the car because I never know when things are going to go extra sideways here.

I am thankful not all the members here live in such a dangerous city and don't have to go to these extremes. I am confident we all adjust and carry to match the threat level where we live. Be safe out there and vote for candidates who will work to stop this violence and for judges who will stop letting these felons out on PR bonds to re-offend.

 

[LiveLife]

Has viewing these types of incidents caused anyone to switch from revolver to auto?

I am quite certain it has.

This frustrating video of robbery where mother and daughter desperately defending their lives with .38 revolver and small caliber semi-auto not having much effect on robber undoubtedly convinced many to switch to higher capacity, larger caliber semi-auto pistols.



In comparison, this video shows armed bank robber dropping after being shot by security guard

 

[tws3b2]

I have a 5 round revolver. A 12 round pistol and 17 round pistol. Most of the time I carry the 5 round revolver.
I pray that I never have to fire one round.
I hold MY SELF responsible for every round.
I can hear the prosecutor now.
How many rounds do you carry in your gun?
17.
17????? 17 rounds for self defense? Or were you out to start a war???
I've sit on several juries. You can get a fair and honest jury. Or, You can get one that's just out to hang a evil gun owner. That's the way it is today. Politics with combined with big dose of stupidity.
Even if you are found completely innocent it can cost you pretty much everything you have.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I have a 5 round revolver. A 12 round pistol and 17 round pistol. Most of the time I carry the 5 round revolver.
I pray that I never have to fire one round.
I hold MY SELF responsible for every round.
I can hear the prosecutor now.
How many rounds do you carry in your gun?
17.
17????? 17 rounds for self defense? Or were you out to start a war???
I've sit on several juries. You can get a fair and honest jury. Or, You can get one that's just out to hang a evil gun owner. That's the way it is today. Politics with combined with big dose of stupidity.
Even if you are found completely innocent it can cost you pretty much everything you have.

The Kyle Rittenhouse trial has shown that if the Prosecutor wants you bad enough, they will try to find a way no matter what.

I personally arm myself accordingly to how I see fit. A G34X in ten rounds is my comfort zone. However if I had to go back to a Shield with seven rounds, I'd be just as good and not under gunned at all.

 

[CapnMac]

This is a pretty good clip on a home invasion.

Larry is a member here, if not very active in the last 3-4 years.

 

[trackskippy]

His stuff is usually well-presented and informative. Lots to learn and think about there too.

Reality is what it is, and you just get what you get, even if it doesn't fit your expectations. All we can do is try and keep up.

 

[sgt127]

I knew an old Dallas PD investigator working internal affairs. First question he asked was “How many rounds did the Officer fire?” From that, he deduced how long the Officer had been on the department.

2-4 rounds, senior Officer that either still carried a revolver or, initially trained and carried a revolver for years.

8-15 rounds, newer Officer that came on after the switch to semi autos.

He said he was very rarely wrong.

 

[Mosin77]

I feel undergunned with 5 or 6 rounds when I know I could be carrying something of equivalent or lesser size/weight that holds 15-18 rounds of approximately equal effectiveness. The same reason I’m pretty sure a single shot muzzleloading pistol will actually do the job fine but I choose to carry a repeating cartridge gun. When it’s not a couple of bullets, but literally 3x the firepower, that’s a performance advantage that is hard to overstate. Which is why cops carry those now and not the older guns.

The performance gap narrows a lot when you start discussing snubnose vs micro autos.

I am sure many people who find themselves in a shooting “spray and pray.” I am equally sure that they probably did the same with revolvers or single stack autos. If you know you have more than one shot you tend to take marksmanship risks you otherwise would not.

 

[balin]

From my understanding many/ to survive most shootings having some grappling, boxing or MMA skills would be more beneficial then a high round count. So to train to win in a gunfight some close quaters training could help save the day.

 

[sgt127]

A good friend of mine is a big boy in the gun world.

he loves getting some gun ho young guy with his tricked out AR-15 and casually mentioning a little shooting challenge.

My friend will take a 30-30.

8” steel plate. 150 yards.

Ready? Go!

He lets them hose off 5-6 rounds and, as they start to slow down, he drops the plate with one shot.

From that, he has coined the phrase:
“The rate of fire is inversely proportional to the number of rounds left in the magazine.” (RC 1984)

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I feel undergunned with 5 or 6 rounds when I know I could be carrying something of equivalent or lesser size/weight that holds 15-18 rounds of approximately equal effectiveness. The same reason I’m pretty sure a single shot muzzleloading pistol will actually do the job fine but I choose to carry a repeating cartridge gun. When it’s not a couple of bullets, but literally 3x the firepower, that’s a performance advantage that is hard to overstate. Which is why cops carry those now and not the older guns.

The performance gap narrows a lot when you start discussing snubnose vs micro autos.

I am sure many people who find themselves in a shooting “spray and pray.” I am equally sure that they probably did the same with revolvers or single stack autos. If you know you have more than one shot you tend to take marksmanship risks you otherwise would not.

Follow the four rules no matter what gun you're armed with.

Self defense for a cop is that has no other choice but to go answer a call while being paid and expected to do these things that upholds the law, is a bit different than a civilian who decided no, they are not going to a mall or any other gun free zone, or areas where crime is known to be at.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

A good friend of mine is a big boy in the gun world.

he loves getting some gun ho young guy with his tricked out AR-15 and casually mentioning a little shooting challenge.

My friend will take a 30-30.

8” steel plate. 150 yards.

Ready? Go!

He lets them hose off 5-6 rounds and, as they start to slow down, he drops the plate with one shot.

From that, he has coined the phrase:
“The rate of fire is inversely proportional to the number of rounds left in the magazine.” (RC 1984)

That's a very easy shot if the rifle is zeroed and the ammunition being used is what they zeroed with.

50/200 zero, easy peasy tricked out or not.