O/U vs SxS; when was the tipping point?

[Geneseo1911]

At my local club; O/Us rule. Most guys have a combo with an un-single for trap. I have never seen a SxS there (or anywhere else besides the store for that matter), and pumps & autos are exceptions to the rule.

It seems, though, that the SxS was the "standard" shotgun in the first half of the 20th century, and very old O/Us are not very common (unless this is a mistaken notion on my part).

So the question is, when did the change occur, and why? Why were O/Us uncommon early on? I know they existed at least as early as the 30's (and I suspect earlier). Why did side-by-side's fall out of favor? Was the O/U always the preferred design, but more costly in the days of exposed hammers?

Anybody have any answers? Anybody here remember when over and under's took over American trap & skeet ranges?

 

[Virginian]

After WWII, lots of returned GIs wanted repeaters, and that, plus the higher cost of building them, hurt SxSs. Then as people prospered in the latter 50s and especially the '60s, the gun writers waxed poetic about the virtues of the O/U for its single sighting plane, and all the sheep headed for the corral. I didn't really see them taking over the target ranges until the latter 70s. The Remington 1100s absolutely ruled in skeet for a long while.

 

[MCgunner]

There are affordable SxSs in the country, now, foreign made, of course. Seems to keep the costs down. They're probably more popular with hunters than clay shooter. I love 'em as field guns, myself, don't mess with clay birds, ain't figured out how to cook 'em, I guess. So, I'm not that trendy as a result of isolation, I suppose. I hunt mostly alone or with a friend who lives 4 hours from me. Got no one to impress, but myself. I really do my own thing. I got my first SxS in 1971. I've always liked 'em. I do hunt with a pump and an auto for ducks, but I've been giving thought to getting a Yildiz O/U since I've never owned one, and in 12 gauge for ducks. My 20 gauge Spartan works fine on ducks and better on doves, but I'd like the O/U in 12. I don't really have biases, like variety. I just feel I'm missing out not ever having owned an O/U. I might hold off until I have a little more spendable cash in a few years, though, and go for something a little more up-scale like a Citori or Red Label or Orion. I'd love to have a stainless Red Label, but I don't think they make it in stainless anymore. Might be a little too shiny, though. I guess I could get it camo dipped.

 

[PJR]

Interesting topic. I agree with Virginian that it wasn't the o/u that rang the death knell for the sxs but the pumps and semis, both were more reasonably priced and made clay shooting more available to people other than the well heeled.

What also helped was John Browning's last design, the Superposed. Compared to the few o/u produced at the time it brought the price down significantly and showed other makers, particularly the Italians, that the o/u could be made at a reasonable price.

From a manfacturing standpoint the o/u is easier to make. Consider the pains that Ruger went through making the Gold Label. Even though they had decades of experience making o/u they found out that making a sxs was more than simply flipping it's established design 90 degrees.

The transition to the o/u from the semis in the 60's and 70's was due to markerting and because the single sight plane of the o/u was similar to what shooters already knew from their other guns. It is much easier to go from a semi to an o/u than from a semi to a sxs.

 

[MCgunner]

The transition to the o/u from the semis in the 60's and 70's was due to markerting and because the single sight plane of the o/u was similar to what shooters already knew from their other guns. It is much easier to go from a semi to an o/u than from a semi to a sxs.

I really don't recall having any problems at all going from an 870 to the SxS when I got one fall '71. I mean, it had a rib and bead. The Wingmaster didn't even have a rib. I thought it easier to acquire with that rib. What's the hard part of this, anyway? I even got used to the double triggers pretty quick.

 

[chas08]

I can't remember seing an O/U before the late 60's early 70's. I remember SxS's from much further back. As a child, I thought all real shotguns were supposed to look like my Dad's and Grandpa's pumps. Between my wife and I we have three SxS's, all Russian, we love them. I've heard all the arguments about why they are a piece of crap, so spare me. I suspect they will probably last us our lifetime. I don't care about, if they last anothers. When we lost our home in the flood of 98 we lost the majority of our firearms. Among them was a 20 ga Browning Citori that I still miss today. But I cant say that I enjoyed shooting it any more than the SxS 28ga Baikal, that I now have, or my wifes 20ga. I gravitated away from O/U's once exposed to SxS's. If I had a choice between a SxS or an O/U of equal value, say $3-5K. I think I'd go with the SxS.

 

[huntsman]

The American SXS died before WWII the depression killed it. In the 60's the o/u was trendy in Europe so it became trendy here.

 

[oneounceload]

Boss had their O/U debut in 1909, IIRC. I believe they were the first.

 

[Two Cold Soakers]

September, 1945

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It probably went from side by sides to semis to O/U

 

[JohnBT]

The tipping point? IMO, sometime right around the introduction of the Citori - 1973.

The near-end of the popular cheap double gun was around the time "In 1930 Davis merged again with Crescent Arms Co. becomming Crescent-Davis Arms Co. They were again purchased by J. Stevens Arms Co. in 1932. Stevens was absorbed by Savage Arms Co. of Westfield Mass. in 1936."

The 311 and Fox Model B eventually carried on, but had trouble competing with the Model 12 and Wingmaster.

Another example: The Fox Sterlingworth was discontinued in 1940.

Nobody in my family could ever afford a Superposed, so they didn't enter into it. Neither did Parkers.

John

 

[ArmedBear]

JImbo has it about right, I think.

Note that Ithaca last made it's really nice guns in 1948. Their trap singles and side-by-sides died after the war.

WW II ushered in a new era of industrial efficiency, and also an era when the refinement of a break-action was no longer valued by Americans who had lugged Garands all over Europe, and flown around in bombers slapped together in hours.

Now what one has to recognize is that the death of the American SxS did NOT mean the beginning of the O/U's popularity in the US. The 870, and all the other mass-production repeaters it spawned, came, in between.

 

[ArmedBear]

doubletap

 

[stiletto raggio]

My dad bought a 20 gauge side by with double triggers. It was an RBL Launch edition with all the goodies,a nd it cost a pretty penny. The first time he shot it was the first time he had shot a 20 gauge, a side-by, or anything with double triggers. It didn't take him too long to get used to it.

Here is my understanding of it: double guns required a lot more labor than pumps or autos. As labor got more expensive and machines got less expensive and more capable, the double gun was no longer the "everyman's gun" it had once been. In comes the Depression (where hardly anyone was buying new guns) and the more expensive ones die out almost completely. It wasn't until later that the technology was reated to make quality doubles relatively cheaply, and even then most were made in other countries. The American-made double has been a long time coming back, and the RBL is the latest and probably the finest one short of the few full-custom outfits out there.

 

[Rembrandt]

The real story is that semi-autos and pumps were taking over the hunting gun market during the first part of the century. There were outcries that these high capacity guns were decimating game and were unsportsmanlike for hunting.

John Browning became fearful legislation might put an end to the A-5 sales and proceeded to cover his bases with an alternative should that happen.

Browning was one of the famous "Four B's", Utah's premier live bird and later trap shooting squad. One of the other members, Gus Becker suggested to John he look at designing an over-and-under. He began working on this about 1920, got a patent in 1923, and went into production in 1927. It was to be a new shotgun that met an untapped market. An affordable O/U that had distinct advantages over the side by side. Unfortunately JMB died before it went into production and his son (Val) finished the prototype.

Gun writers and sportsmen of the day praised the O/U as being far superior to the side by side and an excellent choice for the clay target crowd. Since the Browning guns were all made in Belgium by FN, the depression and war cut short the O/U sales till after WWII. That's when American trap ranges began seeing O/U's in larger numbers.

(reference: Ned Schwing, "The Browning Superposed")

 

[JohnBT]

I wish I could have afforded a Superposed, but they were way too expensive for the typical working man or kid like me. Looking at the '67 Shooter's Bible:

All basic models...

Fox Model B - $114.50
Beretta SxS - $199.95
Beretta O/U Silver Snipe - $195.95 w/ a plain bbl., non-selective trigger
Ithaca Model 37 - $104.95 w/ a plain bbl.
Remington Wingmaster - $99.95, or $124.95 with a vent rib bbl.
Remington 1100 - $154.95
Browning A5 - $164.95 w/ a plain bbl.

And the least expensive Superposed - $385.00

I was making $1.15 an hour at McDonalds. Figure a buck an hour net.


So I'm sticking with my theory about the Citori, even though I've never owned one and probably never will.

John

 

[JohnBT]

Nuts, forgot the Superposed trap models.

Lightning 12 Trap - $410.00
Broadway: Grade 1 - $430.00, Pigeon - $605, Diana - $805, Midas - $1140.

They just look so inexpensive, don't they.

JT

 

[JohnBT]

It's habitat loss that did in the quail, not hunting. They need a combination of open ground, hedgerows, fencerows, woods and such to thrive. It takes a lot of acreage to raise one bird. Modern farming tills fields from edge to edge and leaves nothing for the animals. They eat insects, so pesticides make it hard on them too.

80% of quail don't survive a winter and predators and it's 95% if you add on hunting.

http://home.flash.net/~falline/ocrQuail.htm

"Quail usually locate nests in residual vegetation from the previous growing season. This type of vegetation is found in areas not burned or disked for two years. Patches of sparse broomsedge or other warm-season grasses offer excellent cover for nesting. Quail will avoid nesting in areas where the ground is covered with thick vegetation. Preferably, patches of nesting habitat should be two to 10 acres. Small patches of nesting cover make nests more vulnerable to predators. Also, plan to locate nesting cover on upland sites, away from lowlands that harbor many nest predators. Preferably, nesting habitat should cover 15-30 percent of the landscape."

 

[Aka Zero]

I inherited an O/U browning. And I have to say, I am a fan of the design. Also The gun itself.

26" barrel is fast, since the barrel starts right past your hand, instead of at the end of a long receiver. Shooting two, and reloading is quick. Can put more round down range than an auto or pump, just because it takes no time to reload those two round, no long holding.

But as for SxS never shot one, not many people do shoot clay birds with them. Have shot a few of the single shots with a hammer, and those weigh as much as the browning o/u. And auto's and pumps just seem to long and heavy.

So a well made double gun, I like more than a auto or pump.

And I would like quail hunting too. Reaction speed and gun control.

 

[oneounceload]

Nice grade 1 Superposeds are selling for around $1500 on the internet- no fancy wood or rngraving, but you get those nice Belgian barrels

 

[huntsman]

The superposed are sweet just don't get the salt wood years.

 

[RetiredLawman]

Fire ants did in the quail here in NC. They are all over the eggs as they hatch.

The first O/U I ever saw, I bought it. It was a Churchill 20 gauge. I still have it. All my friends wanted to take a tool of some sort to it to set the barrels back aright. They had only seen SXSs and these old country boys were confused that they stacked the barrels.

Same such with front wheel drive cars. When the head of Chrysler suggested that cars have front wheel drives, I thought he was nutty as a fruitcake. Now, twenty years later, almost all cars are front wheel drive. Every time I open the hood, I want to turn the engine around so that it looks right. A sideways engine looks as foolish as the O/U did to my friends back in the 1950s.

 

[JohnBT]

The quail I've been around needed open space to go with the forest. Miles of woods won't do afaik. The edges of my grandfather's 1500 tree apple orchard were pretty good, but the birds didn't live way back in the surrounding forest or up on the ridges either.

I don't know, maybe the foxes and skunks ate the eggs.

John

 

[oneounceload]

Here in FL, according to a FDOW person I met, the main reasons for quail being almost gone are habitat destruction, predators such as coyotes, skunks, raccoons, fire ants, and herbicides/pesticides. Which is a shame - out west where I lived for a while we had several varieties of wild quail - fun to hunt and great to eat