Offhand: why am I shooting low?

[06Shooter]

I'm becoming interested in competitive shooting and belong to a CMP affiliated club where I could actually earn some points, so I've been working on my greatest weakness, offhand shooting. I can consistently hit the 10 ring prone and the 9 ring kneeling.

I find that nearly every shot fired offhand is low, in the vicinity of the 7 ring between 4:30 and 7:30. I've been told that it's OK to use different dope for different positions, but that doesn't feel like the right answer to me as it's not addressing some fundamental problem.

My hope is that this a textbook problem for which there is a simple answer, namely some problem with my technique.

FWIW, I'm firing an M1, 147-150 gr. FMJBT, 48 gr. IMR4895.


Thanks,
Chris

 

[MarkDozier]

Without see you shoot I can only guess. Are your using the hasty sling or the hasty hasty sling method. if not i recommend the hasty sling it works pretty well.
My hunch is that you are fighting a desire to flinch and are pulling the stock up and into your shoulder to hold it tighter which would push the barrel down and out and put rounds where you describe.
It is also possible your cheeck weld is off and you are pulling the gun up at the butt

 

[rskent]

Shooter

Most people I know (or have asked) have a different head position for every shooting position. You will need to establish a zero (windage and elevation adjustment)
relative to your mechanical zero for every shooting position. They put those little round knobs on your rifle for a reason my friend.

Also, you didn’t mention what hold you were using. If you are using a six o clock hold you may want to try shooting center mass in off hand. It helps me a lot.

Good Shooting
Steve

 

[wanderinwalker]

I can think of a couple of things that might be the issue.

1) Yes, it is 100% okay to use a different sight setting at different positions at the same yard line. It's not a matter of not addressing a fundamental issue, it's just the way you hold the rifle and see the sights-head positioning. As a point, I have to come down 2-3 minutes to shoot prone at 200 yards, versus offhand with my AR-15.

2) You're probably grabbing the trigger. Low shots are the classic symptom of this. Trigger control is critical in offhand and it's normal for new shooters to snatch the trigger when the shot looks right to make it go RIGHT NOW. This will give you shots low from 5-7 o'clock every time, depending on the shooter from 6-8 ring.

3) If it's CMP rules, you're not allowed to use the sling offhand. That's OK, it doesn't really help you anyway because you don't have solid bone-to-bone support like you do in sitting or grounded elbows like in prone. Your left elbow (right handed shooter) should be tucked into your rib cage. Ideally you'd get it onto your left hip like some smallbore shooters do, but not all of us have body shapes that allow that position to work.

4) Stance, leg position. Your feet should be about shoulder width apart and stand so you don't need to use any muscle tension to point the rifle on the target (no twisting). Your back leg controls which direction you point, pivot around your front foot. If you need to raise or lower your natural point of aim, move your right leg closer or farther from your left leg.

Just remember, standing is the most natural thing in the world. We spend a lot of our lives moving and standing on two feet. All you have to do is stand there and shoot the rifle. Front sight and trigger squeeze, repeat as necessary.

 

[CarlosDJackal]

Sounds like your cheekweld is chaning between positions. This will affect the relationship between your eyeballs and the rear sight which changes your sight picture.

This is normal because shooting prone will bring your head closer to the sights in relationship to the the other positions (ie: kneeling, the bench, etc.). As mentioned before, you can have a different sight adjustment for each position or you can adjust your cheekweld so that it is more consistent between positions (not always a viable option).

Good luck!!

 

[Soupy44]

The shots will impact in different places depending on position. But is sounds like you're calling these shots low, so it's not the sights.

Here are my guesses as to what might be happening:

1 - You do not have your support elbow in the correct place. Are you trying to put it on your left hip (I'm assuming you're a righty)? If so, you might not be the right build to accomplish that. Try resting it higher on your left side to bring the rifle up to your face.

2 - Your hand position is not sufficient. I'm still building my standing position for service rifle, but I actually started with my hand inside the magazine, right under the trigger guard. My left palm faced my body and the trigger guard rested between my thumb and index finger in that mushy part of the hand. I did that until I was told I actually can put my hand on the magazine. Now I can replicate my smallbore position with the magazine resting on my left palm with my fingers on the left side of the rifle, thumb on the right side.

3 - You're holding too long. If you're just starting to learn standing, your position still is using way too much muscle, so you tire the longer your hold. Use the 8sec rule. From the moment you look through the sights, if the shot isn't gone in 8 sec, put it down and start over. Odds are any shot taken after 8sec will not be a shot you will be pleased with.

 

[W.E.G.]

Turn the sight knobs, and focus your concerns on holding the rifle steady.

 

[MarkDozier]

it doesn't really help you anyway because you don't have solid bone-to-bone support like you do in sitting or grounded elbows like in prone

I totally disagree I was using the hasty sling for off hand and it really helped me.

 

[06Shooter]

Wow, so much good advice - thanks all.

As wanderinwalker states, the use of a sling is not allowed in offhand matches, so I don't use it in practice.

wanderinwalker also suggests that I'm grabbing in the trigger, which is probably right. I take my time with a slow squeeze when prone, but lack the stability for that luxury when offhand, which means that I also need to work on my stability.

Here's the problem I have with different sight settings for different positions. The geometry of the sight relative to the point of impact doesn't change with my position. If two clicks up from BZO is too high when I'm prone, why wouldn't it be too high in a different position? I'm not saying you all are wrong, only that I don't understand why a different sight adjustment works or even makes sense.


Thanks again,
Chris

 

[wanderinwalker]

Here's the problem I have with different sight settings for different positions. The geometry of the sight relative to the point of impact doesn't change with my position. If two clicks up from BZO is too high when I'm prone, why wouldn't it be too high in a different position? I'm not saying you all are wrong, only that I don't understand why a different sight adjustment works or even makes sense.

Cheek pressure, head position, how the rifle is allowed to recoil, these are the first things I can come up with on why there would be a difference in impact.

Keep a notebook to record the different sight settings between shooting ranges, different yard lines and different positions and ammunition. Shoot a bunch in a range of places and you will find "zero" is really just a close starting point many times. There will almost always be slight changes to your zero based on the day's lighting, wind direction and even temperature (ammunition performance).

Your offhand stability "issue" sounds like a textbook beginners anxiety to want the rifle to STOP MOVING before breaking the shot, which is why I suspect you are grabbing the trigger when everything looks perfectly lined up. Dry-fire practice will help you sort out if it's a full-blown flinch or just a control issue. Keep in mind, there will always be some movement in the sights and rifle.

Read Soupy44's advice about offhand shooting here and in the Improving Highpower score thread.

 

[Sunray]

Get some upper body toning exercise. You're trying to hold a muzzle heavy, 10 pound plus rifle up and steady. Dry fire practice helps too.

 

[Red Cent]

 

[Soupy44]

I want to stress that muscle toning and strength training will never be an answer for improving shooting in themselves. If you are having trouble holding the gun, it is due to insufficient bone support in the position. There needs to be a line from the gun to the hand, through the forearm to the elbow, to your ribs or hip down through your leg to the ground of bone on bone support.

No matter how you train your muscles, you will never be able to hold as steady with muscles as with proper bone support and balance.

If you are comfortable posting pictures of your position, I'd be happy to give you a few pointers.

 

[Red Cent]

The same bone support applies to competition archery.

 

[skidooman603]

Could also be a follow through problem..I had a problem for a bit that I was dropping the barrel to check my shot without proper recoil follow through...

 

[chrome_austex]

Most people I know (or have asked) have a different head position for every shooting position. You will need to establish a zero (windage and elevation adjustment)
relative to your mechanical zero for every shooting position. They put those little round knobs on your rifle for a reason my friend.

Also, you didn’t mention what hold you were using. If you are using a six o clock hold you may want to try shooting center mass in off hand. It helps me a lot.

Good Shooting
Steve

^ This.

Its ok. Different body position and hold = different recoil = different zero. Now, if you're calling your shots low, then that's another matter.

 

[Jim Watson]

You might be dipping the muzzle in an incipient flinch.
I do.

 

[bamawrx]

The question you need to answer is are your shots "on call" or not. Pay attention and see if your hits are where your front sight was when the rifle fires. If the hits match the front sight's location on the target then no need to adjust sight, just work out what potential issue you have.

Have your buddy load your rifle for you and see if you don't toss the rifle half way down range on a surprise dryfire. The M1 is a beast and its pretty easy to develop some bad habits.

How much of an ambush are your using to fire the rifle? The go off....NOW! type thing. With the wobble experienced standing this is a common problem. If you make the rifle shoot NOW you are setting yourself up for some serious flenching. And those would be low hits, maybe low to right if right handed.

Hope this helps and I hope you stick to the sport.

 

[dfugate]

I have a different zero for standing, sitting, and prone at the 200 yards. I hold center mass, so I agree with the others, that will take some of the guess work out of the sight picture for you.