One .22LR in a dire situation: bolt or semi-auto?

[AStone]

In dense woods, snapshooting and follow up shots can save the day.
Thats where a quick handling semiauto shines, imo.

Or a quick handling bolt with a short barrel.

That's what the Ruger Frontier (centerfire) rifle
and the Truck Gun are all about:
snap shooting & follow up shots.

Short, sharp, shock.

It's that feeling,
first experienced
with the short 870,
that motivated this thread.

Short, sharp, shock...

 

[gazpacho]

I have 4 22lr rifles:

1) CZ 452 Special. This goes to the range most often. The only changes I've made is to replace the rear sight blade (The part of the tangent with the notch) with a peep sight blade, and to replace the plastic magazine well with a steel magazine well. At 100m I have a reasonably good chance of getting a head shot on a large jack rabbit. At 150m ditto for a body shot. This makes it my best foraging rifle.

2) Ruger 10/22. Barrel upgrade, trigger upgrade, peep sights, Tactical Innovations 30rd magazine. This rifle is combat accurate out to about 100m. Presicion isn't really there.

3) Taurus M62 Youth Carbine. Simple and reliable, no modifications. Extremely short over all. A good compromise between the Ruger and CZ.

4) Springfield Armory M6 Scout. 22lr upper barrel, .410 lower barrel. Rear sight was milled off and replace with a short weaver rail. Rear peep sight attached. Sights set at 25m for both barrels. This is one of my SHTF/TEOTWAWKI rifles. As a foraging rifle, I can take anything up through medium game, and might do in a pinch for large game.

I know the M6 is sort of cheating as far as this topic goes. For a long term primitive camping trip, The CZ452 would go along, because it is my best small game forager. But for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI I think it's just too bulky.

 

[AStone]

For a long term primitive camping trip, The CZ452 would go along, because it is my best small game forager. But for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI I think it's just too bulky.

Ditto that.

 

[RiverwinoIA]

Or a quick handling bolt with a short barrel.

That's what the Ruger Frontier (centerfire) rifle
and the Truck Gun are all about:
snap shooting & follow up shots.

bolt actions and follow up shots dont go together too well, at least when compared to a semi auto.

 

[rangerruck]

if it is this situation, then here is what I would do, go to a pawn shop, get a used marlin mod 60 for 50 to 80 bucks. then cut and recrown it yourself, or go to a gunsmith, have him cut it to 16 inches and recrown. cost is 20 to 40 bucks. try to get one with the longer tube, they hold 17 rounds.
The mod 60 is more acc and more reliable than a ruger.

 

[AStone]

For a long term primitive camping trip, The CZ452 would go along, because it is my best small game forager. But for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI I think it's just too bulky.

Ditto that.

Follow-up: slower follow-up or not, I still resonate with the idea of a 452 with an inch removed and a nice crown job...if we can resolve this "choke" issue.

If there's a choke in there, then, well, maybe cutting and crowning ain't so wise.

I know shotguns employ chokes.
But rifles? Something doesn't ring quite right about that.

But I'm open. We may have to start a new thread for this one...

But right now, it's sleepy time....

<snore...>

 

[R.W.Dale]

edit- forgot to add, in a .22lr using regular high-velocity ammo, the optimal barrel length is around 16", for maximum velocity. any short or longer and you will lose speed. so using anything longer is purely for sight radius or balance.

In my case with a 28.5" barreled CZ I've just not found this rule to be true. All of the loads I've chronied have been either just a few FPS faster or slower than the ammo mfg's puplished velicities.

I'll bet that the barrel is choked. If you cut and recrown the barrel without rechoking it too, you will probably see an accuracy degradation.

I only found one refrence to a "choked" 22lr barrel, and that refers to the larger diameter at the muzzle

 

[tenisiejer]

1--2---3

I too love Carbines.. BUT. I find that they are hard to keep clean.. Bolt action, is too common. I recommend, a PUMP, with Scope.. Preferbly, a HENRY, still made in NY. Loved my HENRY 22 lever action. but gave it to my sON, when I dumped NY, for this beautiful State of TENNESSEE.....

 

[dfaugh]

Well, I'll be the contrarion here. I'd go with a Marlin Model 60. Mine is about as accurate as a CZ, holds 13 or 14 rounds (forgotten which)...accurate (quarter sized groups at 100 yards, great for hunting), and enough capacity fo lay down a decent amount of fire. Not as quick to load as a magazine fed gun (like a 10/22) but you can get "speedloaders" that are pretty quick (and hold a coupla hundred rounds.

 

[BIGJACK]

My 2 cents, I am not much of a .22 man. I have an old Rem 550 and a Marlin and both have served me well in the plinking and squirrel woods.

However, The other day I had occasion to shoot a friends 10/22 and I was impressed to say the least. It was set up for precision shooting, heavy barrel, custom stock and high powered scope. I was shooting at 75 yards from a table with bags(no vice) and 8 of 9 bullet holes were touching. Now you can't beat that for accuracy with a CZ or anyother "production" weapon that I am aware of.

For this reason I would choose the 10/22 with out knowing how the lighter and shorter versions perform.

 

[R.W.Dale]

It was set up for precision shooting, heavy barrel, custom stock and high powered scope.

Now you can't beat that for accuracy with a CZ or anyother "production" weapon that I am aware of.

That's fine because you weren't shooting a "production" weapon either

 

[MartinS]

"dire". That covers a lot, including being in a fix where unpleasant things are happening very quickly. Given a reliable piece, an automatic allows you to concentrate only on the world and the shot. Simplicity in action if not mechanism.

 

[Ed Ames]

regarding "choked" barrels... As I understand it, some rifling processes (button rifling) leave the barrel under internal stress. If you remove material from the outside of the barrel (e.g. taper, flute, or anything else) then the internal stresses aren't counteracted as much and the bore expands a little bit. To relate this to the picture krochus posted... the tapered/turned down portion would expand to be very slightly oversized and muzzle end would be "correct" which means slightly smaller in diameter than the turned down portion. The result is similar to a shotgun choke but on a much smaller scale. AFAIK that's why fluted barrels end the fluting before the muzzle, BTW.

I have no idea how any of that relates to the CZ barrels, which seem (I've never looked at one in person) to be uniformly tapered....

Regarding the original question... I'd take the bolt gun hands down. Nothing against the 10/22, and carbines can be nice, but especially for the survival woods gun the long barrel (quieter), bolt-action (quieter), easy-feeding (more reliable), high accuracy (better for hunting) bolt gun is the winner in my book.

 

[rangerruck]

REMEMBER LUUUUKKKEE.... 50 to 80 bucks for a used pawner mod 60xtyyyyy.... more rounds and more acc than a rugerrrr...... cut back to 16 inches cuts off another pound of weightttttttt....., holds 14 to 17 rounds in the tuuuubbbeeeeee......

 

[hksw]

Some interesting criteria and posts.

I have a few 10/22s and a few 452s. Given the situation, if you plan on leaving the gun in stock form, with no question, the CZ. If you are up to modifying (replacing parts) a little, I would opt for the 10/22. Easy to work on an can be made as accurate as the CZ (with the right components) and reliable.

 

[atblis]

Bolt

I've never found 22 autos to be that reliable.

 

[toivo]

go to a pawn shop, get a used marlin mod 60 for 50 to 80 bucks. then cut and recrown it yourself, or go to a gunsmith, have him cut it to 16 inches and recrown. cost is 20 to 40 bucks. try to get one with the longer tube, they hold 17 rounds.

Just a caution: If you cut it down to 16 inches, the magazine tube is going to be way longer than the barrel. I'm not sure how well that would work. If you look at the newer ones with the shorter tube and barrel, the tube is the same length as the barrel: 19". I believe the old tubes were appox. 21" long.

 

[BIGJACK]

I beg your pardon krochus, it was a production weapon that he purchased and fit a production stock too.

 

[Cosmoline]

As a result, I've actually <gulp> considered selling the CZ452 and replacing it with a Ruger 10/22.

INFIDEL!! 10/22's are fun guns, no question. But they're not on the same level as the 452. They're nowhere near as accurate and they're not built half as tough. If you enjoy spending a bunch of money on aftermarket stuff and tricking out your .22, the Ruger is the better of the two by far. The CZ has almost no aftermarket stuff. But then again the CZ doesn't NEED any aftermarket stuff.

For a long term primitive camping trip, The CZ452 would go along, because it is my best small game forager. But for SHTF/TEOTWAWKI I think it's just too bulky.

If you have one with a big scope on it, maybe. But the iron sighted ZKM is light, handy and perfectly balanced. I have no problem carrying mine all over, including on my back to the range or around the woods. It isn't "bulky" in any sense of the word--it's just long.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I beg your pardon krochus, it was a production weapon that he purchased and fit a production stock too.

It was set up for precision shooting, heavy barrel, custom stock and high powered scope.

Which one is it?

Quote 2 doesn't sound too "production" to me

I've shot the Bull barrelled "production" 10-22's with the laminate target stocks they don't hold a candle to a CZ. Besides that they could hardly be conscrued into the idea of a "STHF" rifle

 

[R.W.Dale]

If you have one with a big scope on it, maybe. But the iron sighted ZKM is light, handy and perfectly balanced. I have no problem carrying mine all over, including on my back to the range or around the woods. It isn't "bulky" in any sense of the word--it's just long.

Give the man a cookie! Kinda makes you wonder how our ancestors made due using those long Kentucky rifles to forage for meat.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

While the Ruger 10/22 is one of my favorites, I would prefer the CZ for a long term SHTF. As a manually operated rifle it is much less sensitive to what ammo you'll be shooting, and will work with stuff like CB Longs or .22 Shorts.

Re sights: Get both. Mount a quality rimfire scope but retain zeroed iron sights. Scopes have largely superceded iron sights for a reason, i.e., they make hitting what you're aiming at a lot easier. (I say this as someone whose stable of rifles is mostly iron sighted.) For one thing, a good scope gathers light and thereby extends your shooting hours. Game is often active near dawn or dusk.

I highly recommend the Nikon ProStaff rimfire scopes. You can often get them from Natchez Shooters Supply in factory refurb form for not much more than cheap rimfire scopes, but you'll be getting a good piece of glass. The Weaver rimfire scopes would be my second choice.

I'm not sure why compactness is a big factor for SHTF rifles, especially a hunting gun like a .22.

Now, what I would consider as a good alternative to a .22 LR would be a .22 Magnum bolt gun with a supply of good ammo. The .22 Mag gives you an edge beyond 50 yards or on game 'coon size and up. You can use .22 WRF for quieter loads on edible game (get .22 WRF at Cabela's).

 

[22-rimfire]

I have a 10/22 Deluxe with the factory walnut stock. Had it since around '88. I like it, but I don't love it. I would keep the CZ and add a 22 auto. I feel in a SHTF situation that you are better off with a 22 auto with a tubular magazine as it is less apt to mess up on you and typically they hold more rounds. You can rig up essentially "speed loaders" for them with rigid plastic pipe/tubing. My favorite 22 auto with tube magazine is my Weatherby Mark XXII. Fine rifle! My favorite shooting 22 is my Remington 541-S. If I had to choose one for a woods scenario, I'd go with the 541 as long as I had extra mags incase I lost one or two. These days, the Marlin 60 gets good reviews and it's cheap. Keep in mind in a serious situation, that you should probably be with someone (wife, friend, child etc.) and they may not have a 22.

 

[rbernie]

which aperture rear sight do you use?

WGSR-54.

 

[AStone]

My Q: which aperture rear sight do you use?
RB: WGSR-54.

Thanks for that.

Alas, I'm not finding anything on that page for CZ.