Open sights at 100yds with older eyes

[Squeaky Wheel]

I made it out the range after having been away for about a year. I was doing recreational bench shooting with open sights with targets 100 yards out. I'm in the 45-50 age category and my eyes are a far cry from what they once were. The target is quite fuzzy/blurry for my eyes at that distance. In case it's relevant, I was shooting a 1903-A3 (aperture sight). The best I can do for my eyesight (using open sights) is to try to center the top of my front sight blade on the fuzzy/blurry target.

After pulling my target at the end of my shooting, I started wondering what would the 'normal' grouping be for open sights at that range with an older pair of eyes? In other words, I have no idea if my grouping is good, bad, middle-of-the-road, or something else.

Any guidance on how to know? By the way, I don't know anything about target scoring, so I can't say I shot a 'x'. I'm just asking out of curiosity. As I said, I don't shoot competitively (and don't plan on it). Just wondering.

Thanks in advance.

 

[sappyg]

For me it helps to let the target sit on top of the front sight post. Otherwise the blade gets lost in the target.

No idea of what a normal grouping would be with the rifle and ammo used. I'm just happy to hit a 6" target at 100 yards with irons. For me that's an accomplishment.

 

[ford8nr]

I just looked back at my last years Vintage Military match scores. Shot from a bench with a front bag I averaged low to mid 90 out of 100 scores with both my Garand and 91/30 on a MR 21 target which is a reduced 300yd national match target scaled to be shot at 100 yds. Black bull is 6" (8 ring), x is .8", 10 ring 2.1". Matches are five 10 shot relays, last match I had a 95 and 96 both 3x. At 55 my eyes don't adjust like they use to, the Garand is a little easier with the rear peep. Otherwise concentrate on the front sight, target will blur, sight in and shoot with the bull positioned as a pumpkin sitting on the front sight post.

 

[Hardtarget]

First...open sights or "Irons" are different from peep sights. Open sights are much harder to see and shoot with than peep sights.

I'm 65 and I've gotten several .75" three shot "mini groups" with peep sights shooting my AR. Before I put peeps on my Win.'94 I couldn't hit anything. It was awful! Peeps changed everything. I really like shooting my .30-30 again. I have peep sights on my .303 Enfield, and the .30 carbine, also the M1 Garand. So, five have peep sights and five have open sights. The "peep" sighted rifles get more range time. Its more fun to hit the target! I generally shoot at 100 yards.

Mark

 

[ford8nr]

My Mosin 91/30 has 'open' sights. A trick I found is using a tiny round file, I opened and deepened the rear sight notch. This allows more front sight blade to be seen. Made a world of difference!

 

[Pete D.]

Apertures

My first one inch group at 100 yards was shot with a 1903 Springfield using the aperture on the ladder sight. That was back in my forties.
I found that the ammo was at least as important as the sight and my eyes.
Now I am 68 and apertures still suit me. I have changed guns at this point and shoot an AR more often than not....prone more often than any other position.
I also shoot a Garand upon occasion.
With the right ammo, the bullets go where they are supposed to.
Here is a picture of two targets that I shot with the AR prone. They are one click of windage different. Ten shots in the right hand target. Eight shots in the left (the missing shots were my first and went high and left.) Really good shooters would have a much more centered and tighter group....these were good for my skills such as they are.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

First...open sights or "Irons" are different from peep sights. Open sights are much harder to see and shoot with than peep sights.

I'm 65 and I've gotten several .75" three shot "mini groups" with peep sights shooting my AR. Before I put peeps on my Win.'94 I couldn't hit anything. It was awful! Peeps changed everything. I really like shooting my .30-30 again. I have peep sights on my .303 Enfield, and the .30 carbine, also the M1 Garand. So, five have peep sights and five have open sights. The "peep" sighted rifles get more range time. Its more fun to hit the target! I generally shoot at 100 yards.

Mark

Sorry. I meant aperture (peep) sights. The main idea I was trying to convey when I said open sights or iron sights was 'without a scope'.

 

[BCRider]

I've tried different target options but found that a 6 inch ShootN'C stuck to an 11x17 sheet of white printer paper gives me the easiest to see "fuzzy blob" of all the options I've tried.

So don't discount the value of a good target shape, size and high contrast. It's just as important as the sort of sights you're using when you're trying to make the most from an all too rapidly dwindling amount of eyesight.....

With this easy to see for my eyes target setup I found that a hard to focus on front pin front and shallow "v" rear notch my 60 year old eyes can generate roughly 6 to 7 inch groups at 100 yards from a rest. But the low visibility of the shallow and almost vestigal rear "v" makes much of the sighting more of a guessing game.

Moving to a deep "U" shaped rear notch with my eyes allows the rear notch to act a little like a rear peep aperture. This sharpens up the front post well enough that my groups drop to something more like 3 to 4 inches not including the inevitable fliers that are out to around 5 and 6 inches

Moving on up from a barrel mounted rear sight to a receiver mounted aperture sight I find that the opening does sharpen my view a trifle. And the smaller the size of the rear aperture the more sharpening I see. But most military rifle rear aperture sizes are too large to do much for this aspect. The times I've shot with such sights I found that I mostly get around the same size groups as I do with a deep "U" barrel mounted rear sight.

From there I move on to the match target rear peep style sights. I've got rifles set up with small size rear aperture sights and front globe style sights on a few rimfire rifles and a couple of single shot center fire rifles. In all cases and matched with that same easy to see high contrast 6 inch black on a sheet of white target I can manage to consistently obtain 2 inch groups when shooting from a rest And more often than not I get 1.5'ish inches. I'm still working with my ammo loads for these rifles and I'm plagued with spotty bullet supplies. So I get a batch of ammo that let's me shoot like this then I run out of the bullets and try another brand only to find that it doesn't work as well. But I was able to run enough of the good stuff to know that the ammo, rifle and I can obtain 2 inch and better at 100 when we're all matched up. And no small part of that is due to the ease and sharpness of the sight picture provided by the small little rear aperture acting like a pinhole lens to sharpen up my vision.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

When was the last time you had your eyes checked? At 40, 50, or 60 years of age you should be able to have corrected vision that will allow you to shoot as well as a 20 or 30 year old. I have worn glasses since I was 5 to correct my vision and at 61 I don't think aiming holds any larger of an issue as it did when I was 40, but I have my eyes checked every year since I only have one eye that is functioning.

I don't shoot a lot of paper but I am disappointed in myself if I cannot hit a 12 oz soda can from 100 yards on the first shot with my old war relics.

 

[Don McDowell]

I'm a good bit older than you are and shoot with folks that are older than I am. You can shoot just fine with irons , if you have a good prescription, and train yourself to shoot with irons. Many of us get "lazy" shooting scopes and forget how much easier they are to shoot.
4x4 target 1023 yds with a Sharps testing a new bullet.

 

[PapaG]

The only choice for me now (70s, bifocals but need tris) is aperture front and rear. Aperture in the front sight needs to show a ring of light around the black on the target. With these, the target is automatically centered by your eyes...you look "through" the apertures and you eye aligns with the target.
Now I'm only a 2 1/2" shooter but when I started the BPC game I regularly shot in the 1 to 1 1/2" realm with that sight arrangement.
Now, with open rear and post or bead front, I'm happy to be in the black.

 

[MartinS]

That's pretty shooting Wyoming.

 

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Martin, unfortunately we found later on that bullet is just a bit long for the rifles twist and if the wind kicks up , it does not do well past 800 yds.

 

[Hardtarget]

I wasn't trying to be picky...just making sure I was thinking right and on the same page.

I love shooting no matter the sight arrangement. If it goes bang, count me in! While I like the scope on the AR, I also like shooting with peeps. Most of the guys at my club have optics of some type so I get a few "looks" when they see me shooting peeps after I've removed the scope.

I do find the open sights like on my Mauser and K-31 a bit harder to use...but I still shoot 'em!

Mark

 

[Don McDowell]

Widening the rear sight notch can work wonders for eyesight that's not quite as good as it once was, and there's nothing wrong with rear aperatures with great big holes in em either.

 

[BCRider]

Even if I can't get match grade results from my open sight setups I prefer them for my fun shooting over scopes. Optics just seems a little too much like cheating somehow. Of course the trick is to work to even tighter group sizes with the scopes. But I just prefer plain or peep sight setups for now while I can still use them reasonably effectively.

 

[MEHavey]

I was shooting a 1903-A3 (aperture sight).

As long as your eyes`n aperture combo can resolve a sharp front sight at the 30" range, the bullseye at 10,800" is going to be more than a bit blurry.

This is why God invented the 6-o'clock hold -- which can be incredibly precise (far better than the rifle/ammo)

 

[carbine85]

I have a set of front and rear aperture sights on a Mosin Nagant. I use the smallest aperture on the front. It seems to work pretty good.
I also have a Smith front sight post on another and that helps.
I'm getting to the point where I can't use standard military iron sights any more. I can't focus through the rear sight any more and need help with the front sight to compensate.

 

[zb338]

I'm 81 and I use a seeing eye dog to line up the sights.

Zeke

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

So don't discount the value of a good target shape, size and high contrast. It's just as important as the sort of sights you're using when you're trying to make the most from an all too rapidly dwindling amount of eyesight.....

Thanks. I'll try them next time. The target I used was very poor in comparison.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

shoot with the bull positioned as a pumpkin sitting on the front sight post.

This is what's referred to as the 6-o'clock hold? I'll try this technique.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

This is why God invented the 6-o'clock hold -- which can be incredibly precise (far better than the rifle/ammo)

Is this because it's easier to consistently line up the bottom of the target with the top edge of the front blade?

I'll try this the next time I'm at the range.

 

[MrBorland]

Is this because it's easier to consistently line up the bottom of the target with the top edge of the front blade?

Yup. It's a more precise sight picture than a center hold.


Buy some NRA SR-1C targets, which are used expressly for aperture-sighted rifles at 100 yards, and have a 6.3" bull.

Use a 6 o'clock hold, and off a bench, you should be able to keep them all in the black (9-ring or better). You can also monitor your progress by simply recording your improving scores over time.

FWIW, a good High Power Rifle competitor will put them all in the 10-ring while slung-up and shooting from a seated position. Prone, they'll be able to put most of them in the x-ring with this target.

 

[loose noose]

My 67 year old eyes are still pretty good if I do say so myself, recently at Front Sight in Pahrump, Nevada I shot the two day rifle course, using a standard Bushmaster AR-15, 16" barrel with the open aperture sights. At 100 yards, 5 shots, I had a 3" group using the Bronze PMC .223 ammo (can only use factory ammo due to liability) all centered right on the black diamond in the center of the thoracic cavity, from the prone position.

 

[BCRider]

Is this because it's easier to consistently line up the bottom of the target with the top edge of the front blade?

I'll try this the next time I'm at the range.

The ONLY downside to the 6 o'clock hold is that it relies on the relationship of the distance to the target and the diameter of the black center spot. Change either and you're suddenly shooting high or low. So it's a great option for compeitition. Not so great for plinking at various size targets at various distances.

For this last idea the winner for non-magnified shooting are the globe style front sight and rear peep sight. This setup aids in centering the target so it doesn't matter if it's the wrong diameter or distance.

All of this assumes of course that you adjust your elevation for the distance being shot. The bit above is just to point out that the right relationship in the setup needs to exist for a 6o'clock hold to work.