Opinions--.308 class rifle or shotgun for bear defense?

[Shawnee]

No doubt the 12ga.

Brenneke slugs are a notably better than the "Forester" types.

Will add that Capstick favored #3 Buck when facing wounded/annoyed lions in deep grass but a big Brown is probably "two scoops" of lion.

An authoratative handgun would be a nice supplement.

 

[TCB in TN]

Have never shot a bear before but have seen 1st hand what a 12ga slug does to a big hog and it is impressive. Being charged at close range is NOT a good thing and it is very hard to make hits, so a quick repeater (lever, or pump preferred) is important IMHO. I would also say that practice with whatever you choose would be at least as important as what you choose.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Will add that Capstick favored #3 Buck when facing wounded/annoyed lions in deep grass but a big Brown is probably "two scoops" of lion.

Shawnee,

Capstick did a heck of a lot more witting than he did hunting. In fact I'd be shocked if he ever went after a wounded lion in real life at all. You would be hard pressed find a PH today whom recommends buckshot on lions. That is a really good way to get yourself killed. It has been proven time and again that buck shot and lions are a REALLY BAD idea. In fact using it on leopards is starting to be less common due to failures to stop. Of all the PH's I've hunted with and talked with to the man recommend an iron sighted heavy rifle preferably in a double when following wounded lion.

How exactly did this 5 year old thread come back to life anyhow?

I've met very few experienced bear guides as in none, who would consider carrying a shotgun with any type of ammo including slugs as a back up weapon on bears.

Most of them carry either a .338 or a .375H&H or larger. I've seen a few .458's and .416's and even heard of one who carries a .505Gibbs.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi H&H...


I don't know if Capstick ever saw a lion or not but I have no reason to doubt what you're saying. He wouldn't be the first "paper lion hunter". I've heard several times that Kenneth Anderson was a 24k fraud so anything is possible.

To be fair - I don't know how the SSG compares to buck made here but it still may be a moot point. I once "attacked" a junk car ( a 50's model with real steel) with a Remington 1100 and Brenneke slugs and I know it would have to be a very healthy animal to withstand that kind of punishment.

I would sure agree with the double rifle. Personally, I would much rather have a double rifle in... say... .300 Win Mag. or even a 7 Mag. than a bolt-gun in .338 or .375. Even Better yet - YOU go after the Brown and I'll watch from the plane.

 

[koja48]

I've carried a shottie with slugs for years & can attest to the fact that it works. A Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70 isn't a bad option, either. Up close & personal, quick handling/quick pointing authoritative power is the key defensive element.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've carried a shottie with slugs for years & can attest to the fact that it works.

Koja,

Are you a guide using a shotgun on dangerous game back up?

 

[Shawnee]

The 7/8oz (387gr (+/-) slug has about the same energy at 50yds. that the 325gr. "Leverlution" .45/70 load has at 200yds.

No doubt the .45/70 slug is sturdier and will give more penetration - but there is the wild card factor of caliber (specifically frontal surface area) - the slug being roughly .70 caliber as opposed to the .45 caliber of the rifle.

Be that as it may - it would seem penetration would be the better choice assuming the shooter could handle the .45/70 well.

 

[koja48]

Was a guide in Montana years ago. Unfortunately, had cause to use the shotgun on one Griz and several black bears, but it is an effective stopper & quick to bring on-target . . . never needed more than two shots (and <6-yards when confronting & finally stopping a hell-bent-on-destruction Griz is way TOO close & prompts a timely underwear change), but the repeatability factor is most comforting. Good slugs are effective. Don't know that I'd consider them as a viable option on some of the critters you are so fortunate to pursue, however, H.

 

[koja48]

The 7/8oz (387gr (+/-) slug has about the same energy at 50yds. that the 325gr. "Leverlution" .45/70 load has at 200yds.

And since "me or it" situations occur inside of skivvies-tightening range, that explains my preference for the shottie . . . big & slow arriving with authority. But then again, I carry a most-reliable 1911 with 230-grain insurance riders when 2-legged threats are a potential.

 

[H&Hhunter]

3.5" Brenekes out of a 12ga are some serious medicine. And a Marlin using 500gr Garret loads would be pretty tough to beat as well for a bear stopper. But I've got to tell you a short .375H&H or .458 win or Lott with good large ring aperture sights is pretty tough to get past as well especially when the guy using it knows how to run a bolt a gun. It all boils down to an adequate caliber and the ability to use it in your chosen platform. Training familiarity and comfort level have a lot more to do with this than caliber in the real world.

Koja how close were you to the park when you had your Grizzly trouble? It seems to me that I hear a lot about problems with Grizz in the south west corner down by Yellowstone.

 

[koja48]

Quite some distance NW (certainly beyond normal Griz territorial ramblings). Where I grew-up, hunted, & guided (east of the Bitterroot country), there was always a resident Griz population, plus, unbeknown to the locals, the Fed park service used to relocate problem bears in that general area on occasion. I feel fortunate to have seen my share of the big bears & feel bad that I had to stop one. She was welcome to the elk . . . I just wasn't inclined to be on either the menu or the fight card & she wasn't inclined to let me back out of the encounter. I actually had hairier encounters with black bears & more frequently, to boot. Some day I'll own a Lott or a .375 . . . don't have a real need for one, but the collection just isn't complete . . . yet. Should you ever hunt elk around the fringes of the park, be aware. There are hunter/bear encounters in that neck of the woods on an all-too-frequent basis. You are spot-on re: adequate caliber, ability, familiarity, and practice, however.

 

[ArmedBear]

I take it you're referring to the Grizzly/Brown/Kodiak class of bears, not Black Bears.

The CZ Safari rifles I've held are heavy suckers. That's nice for the recoil, but not for defense.

As others have said, if you have to shoot the bear, you're too close. Of course, that also means that you are handicapped by having a big, heavy rifle.

I'd lean towards a 12 Gauge slug gun with a shortish barrel and a good recoil pad. Not pleasant to shoot, but for defensive applications, it would seem to be ideal. Heavy slug, big hole, quick handling, plenty accurate enough for iron sights at 20 yards or less.

A .308 might just piss off the bear.

 

[H&Hhunter]

A Factory CZ 550 is a club. I specialize in fast handling short DG rifles and I own several of them. A heavy caliber rifle can and should be set to be fast handling rifle. The perfect balance in an accurate and lightening quick rifle is a piece of art but it isn't all that difficult to obtain with a bit of knowledge. After all the British gun makers have been doing it for quite some time now and they have proven themselves beyond a shadow of a doubt when it comes to capable DG rifles.

 

[caribou]

I'm a bit North of ya, sitting in Noorvik on Kobuk river, and I have shot dozens of Bears, both Black and Brown with my Mosin Nagants.
My M-39 is wonderfull with Czeck LPS.

Bears HATE dogs, I have never heard of a Bear in a dog yard, ever, and theres still plenty of dogteams up this way, inna Arctic.

Youe net, your cache, your house, but never a dog lot or a building near a doglot.

The dogs will let you know whan a Bear is around, and you will have time to use the Mosin at a distance...if your jumpe'd, youll have to use what you have.....

Leave a dog loose if your worried, though the others will bark and howl to be loosend too.:banghead:

The Big Su is a Beautifull River, Ive floated it for kicks and Beer before. Brrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

regards!
Chip

 

[Harve Curry]

No expert here either. At 3 in the moring I'd opt for the slugs in the shotgun, after shooting some for function and point of impact. Have fun, to cold up there for me.

 

[BigBuckMaster]

i gots experance with bears

i have been Kodiak, polar, grizzly, Silvertip, black, and brown bear hunting here in the USA/CSA and in Russia, so i know a thing or two bout bears.

my bear defense gun is a 870 12 ga loaded with either #000 or #1, due to flat land and thick brush, respectively. in the many times i was in bear country, i only had to use a kill shot once on a large Silvertip sow. i did kill a black bear here in La with a slug, but i was bear hunting at that time.

my vote is for the shotty. of course, if your are bear HUNTING, bring a large caliber handgun (ie .44, .45 LC, .460 S&W, .500 S&W) either in simi or double action revolver along with your rifle/bow/muzzel loader/crossbow.

if you do use a shotty, for loads, i reccomend either a expanding slug or #000, #00, or #1 shot. i like the #000 and #1 cause the #000 had 8 .36 balls, and the #1 has 12 .32 balls.

just my $1/50

 

[Harve Curry]

Ben Lilly used a knife of his own making, sharp on both sides. He'd reach around the bear and stab him, the bear would bite at what just poked him, but Lilly would be just out of the way. He considered it more sportting then just shooting the creature.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Kodiak, polar, grizzly, Silvertip, black, and brown bear

BigBuckMaster,

Could you please give me a little lesson here.

I was not aware that a Silvertip and Grizzly were a separate species. I always was under the impression that a Silver tip was simply a color phase of the Grizzly family. And that a Kodiak was a brown bear that happened to live on Kodiak Island. I was unaware that they were also a separate species?

Thanks

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'll be dag nabbed....

http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/notebook/biggame/brnbear.php

I guess you can learn something new every day. Kodiaks are in fact a separate sub species of Brown bear..

But I am still trying to figure out the difference between a silver tip and a "Grizz". Is there an actual sub species or is it a colloquial thing?

http://www.light-science.com/articles1013.html

 

[koja48]

Silver tip is a Griz . . . with highlights, H. And as for bear loads . . . good slugs, period (unless, of course your intent is to piss them off).