Over 60 years later, is the "Assault Rifle" concept still viable in modern combat?

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armed85

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By "Assault Rifle," I mean a select fire rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge in either semiautomatic, burst, or fully automatic. The select fire enables the weapon to be used as a submachine gun while the intermediate cartridge has more power than the pistol ammunition of the submachine gun. The assault rifle is a cross between the submachine gun and rifle used in World War II.

The M14 and FAL were both full auto, but the United States and UK chose to modify these weapons to fire semiautomatic only for the most part.

The M16 was full auto as well, but the US again decided to remove full auto capability, but this time modify the rifle to fire semiautomatic or 3 shot burst. The M4 carbine, however, can be fired full auto.

The AK-47 is no doubt a spray and pray weapon. Our experience in Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan readily demonstrate the spray and pray tactics of our opponents. This, obviously, is due to lack of training more so than the effectiveness of these tactics.

So my question is thus, is the concept of an assault rifle perhaps obsolete in modern combat?

At least for the United States, it appears we use the M16A2 and M16A4 as a semiautomatic rifle and not as an assault rifle. In other words, we've come full circle back to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. Just with a lighter weight rifle and less powerful cartridge.
 
Considering that a significant percentage of the world's armed forces, regular or irregular, are armed primarily with derivatives of either the M16 or AK, I'm thinking that your question makes about as much sense as asking whether the "rifle" concept is still viable in modern combat.

Now, asking whether selective-fire capability is of any use is a different issue, but still somewhat pointless considering that burst and full are still commonly encountered most everywhere. There's a great deal of force behind the argument that semi is all the average soldier should be using, but it should be pointed out that many armies still issue rifles with burst or full capability..so it's certainly not obsolete yet.
 
Talking about military calibers....

The thing I know is that once in a while the western military high command get a "itch" about changing calibers...we went from a 30-06 to a 308 to have a more compact, portable round, then that too was too powerful, then we downgraded to a 5,56 caliber and guess what...maybe it is too light and it seems we are talking about going up again in caliber....


The Russians use the 7,62 X 54R as their full power round since 1891 with no intention of changing it anytime soon and then they introduced the intermediate round (copying from the Germans) in the late 40's with the 7.62 X 39

They were very happy with it (and half of the world with them) when they catched for a while the change caliber western bug introducing the 5,45 to get back later on to their trusty 7.62 X 39 (at the moment they use both)

Practical people the Ruskies....when NASA spent few millions dollar to fund a project for the use of pen that could use ink in absence of gravity in space, the Russians used pencils....yes it is a true story...

I guess we have to find a way to spend our overinflated military budgets....
 
In my mind, when you modify an selective-fire assault rifle to a semiautomatic rifle, it is no longer an assault rifle. The selective fire capability is what makes a rifle an "assault rifle."

The United States seems to be using our rifles like we used the M1. The infantry tactics may have changed but the rifle is basically the same.

The M16 when never fired in burst is like an M1 Carbine. Probably about the same power too.
 
saturno_v, the 7.62x51mm NATO or .308 Win. is a heck of a round, but it's a full power cartridge and not an intermediate cartridge. The 7.62x39mm Russian has far less power and is closer to the 5.56mm NATO than it is the 7.62x51mm NATO.

Somewhere between 6mm to 6.8mm is probably ideal. More power than the 5.56mm and less weight than the 7.62mm.

I can't resist: "Seven... point... six... two... millimeter... full... metal... jacket" You know what I'm talking about!
 
Yes I know the 308 is a full powered round but it was already a trimming (case size and a bit of power) from the 30-06 (in the 50's) and it lasted only 10 years before the US army donsized again to 5.56 caliber because the 308 was considered difficult to control in full auto mode and too big to carry around.

Not all western countries wet to the 5.56 round immediately though...

For example, in Italy, where I originally come from, we used the .308 as standard round from the 50s till mid 90's (when I was in the service over there in 1988, the Beretta BM59 in .308, also called "the italian FAL" was still my standard issue)

What I'm tryign to say is that we did a lot of changes in caliber compared to the Russians....
 
What I'm tryign to say is that we did a lot of changes in caliber compared to the Russians....

? NATO has adopted two new rifle/MG cartridges since WW2 (7.62x51 and 5.56x45), USSR/Russia also adopted two (7.62x39 and 5.45x39).
 
Yes, the concept still is viable. The rounds and platforms are the main things in question. Though we might primarily use the rifles in semi-auto, I'm sure that there are instances where dumping as much ammo at something as mechanically possible in the shortest amount of time still comes in handy. Depends on the situation, but I wouldn't personally know.
 
Practical people the Ruskies....when NASA spent few millions dollar to fund a project for the use of pen that could use ink in absence of gravity in space, the Russians used pencils....yes it is a true story...

Not totally true. The U.S. also used pencils on earlier flights but found that they were prone to cracking and bouncing bits of shrapnel throughout the cockpit. Fischer independantly developed a pressurized pen cartridge (without government funding) that they sold to NASA.

Ironically, Russian space flights now also use pressurized pens for the same reasons.

Source:
http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
 
I've read that the Israelis have been quite effective using spray and pray tactics. Apparently their doctrine calls for overwhelming the enemy with firepower during an attack.
 
Rag, your proposition is flawed. Trying to compare civilian ownership of semi-automatic versions of their military counterparts is without merit. Your title to this thread is, well, umm, ok, at the best: Odd (politically speaking).

But to answer your ruminating, convoluted question: No. The "assault weapon" will become more and more the driving force of modern day warfare.
 
I'm not comparing civilian ownership of semiautomatic weapons to military weapons. I never mentioned civilian ownership. I am using "assault rifle" in it's correct context.

My question is not convoluted at all.

As I said, we modified our first assault rifle, the M14, from a selective-fire fully automatic to a semiautomatic only. After which, we modified the M16 from a selective-fire fully automatic to a burst.

It is not outside the realm of reason to suggest we took an idea, the assault rifle, and found out it's not all it's cracked up to be. We fielded two assault rifles and modified both to the point the where they're no longer used as assault rifles.

The definition is a selective-fire weapon, capable of fully automatic fire, that fires an intermediate cartridge.

The M14 and M16 might technically fit the definition of assault rifles, but we don't use them as such, and have even modified them to not have the capability of fully automatic fire.
 
The M4 carbine, however, can be fired full auto.

The M4 is three-round burst, while the M4A1 is fully automatic.

The Powers That Be in the post-Vietnam era apparently concluded that US troops over used automatic fire from their assault rifles. There were two basic solutions they could have opted for -- spending money to train troops better on the use of semi and fully automatic fire, or opting for a technological fix that did not depend on troops using their weapons properly. They mostly went with plan B, outside of SOCOM, which traded in the M16A2 for the M4A1.

So my question is thus, is the concept of an assault rifle perhaps obsolete in modern combat?

At least for the United States, it appears we use the M16A2 and M16A4 as a semiautomatic rifle and not as an assault rifle. In other words, we've come full circle back to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. Just with a lighter weight rifle and less powerful cartridge.

We stress the use of semi-auto fire with rifles and carbines, but there are situations where automatic or burst firing is the preferred mode. In those situations where you need the higher volume of fire, it's a nice thing to have.

The other issue with the assault rifle is even on semi it is faster handling than a full-power rifle. Receivers and other components to handle intermediate rounds can be lighter to begin with, and then recoil makes the weapons quicker back onto targets or onto the next target, etc. Add in the larger magazine capacity and larger basic load of ammunition carried on the individual soldier and you get a lot of pluses that justify the use of an assault rifle even before the ability to use it as a bullet hose come into the equation.
 
Look, as mentioned elseware, you could write your doctoral dissertation on this subject.

Learning from the past, and preparing to fight the last war.

We frequently build the army to fight the last war, which never seems to work, but yet or magical future seeing crystal balls don't work either.

In the napolionics, long arms began to dislodge cavalry but even then you blast a formation of infantry with your artillary then let your cavalry at em. By the time of the civil war cavalry was really mounted infantry, and that was using old for the period longarms. Repeaters were present but ignored due to lack of very long range capability. Even Custer's men turned in their spencer repeaters for sharps carbines under the concept of open warfare in europe the 45-70 could be volley fired at a clump/column of enemies.

WWI comes along and teaches us that nope, infantry units taking long distance shots at eachother is a thing of the past, because lets say your 45-70 can volley-fire a mile, and his 7mm mauser can only volley fire 1/2 mile. You sit around volley firing your 45-70, he calls in artillery. OR, you get closer, say 300 yards, then his flatter flying cartridge has an advantage.

Of course, machine guns ruled the front, you hid in trenches to avoid them, and tanks were invented to counter them.

But really, it was biplanes guiding artillery that mashed stuff up.

Then came WWII. Better bombers and artillery meant trenches didnt' do a whole lot of good. But then we spend more time on fighterplanes to protect bombers, AA guns to repel them, artillery-counter-artillery meaning you fire a few rounds from your howizter and now the enemy knows where you are, so they shoot their howizter there, so you better move.

So we build this huge war machine that is 3 or 4 degrees away from the actual infantry. It doesn't matter what gun the infantry has when the bomber hits them. It doesn't matter what bombs the bomber drops if the enemy fighters intercept it, and if those intercepter fighters are junk compared to escort fighters etc etc.

So the USA builds it's modern army around air craft carriers, tomohawk cruise missles, M1A abrams tanks, Apache Helos, etc. Yea, when those beasts are in theatre, it matters not what guns your infantry has, or what guns your enemy has...as long as we fight under their umbrella.

However, the enemy will of course go to long lenghts to avoid this. Also politics gets involved and messes stuff up. Vietnam, check out the movie and book 'we were soldiers' Our artillery and planes kept many many enemy at bay, or else they attacked at night, or tried to rush to get in too close to use artillery.

The other tactic is to attack at two spots, make them send all the planes and tanks there, then go attack somewhere else now that it is free of them. This also happened a lot, when there were no planes available for fire missions, and artillery was tied up elseware. Part of this is politics, and the other part is politics too!

The first part is simple and clear politics, they don't want to send in more troops or more gear, even if it is present. (example, no tanks in somalia, it would send a bad message! also said no to a lot of tanks in Iraq cities right after the actual Iraqi army was beaten in gulf war 2)

In WWII, the german tiger tank was much much better than the sherman. One Tiger vs 2 shemans was a fair fight, maybe. Good thing we could build 3 shermans for every 1 tiger.

Yet nowadays we invent a bigger badder whatever, and where we used to have 12, we now just get 8 of the new one, because that is the 'same amount of force'. You do that enough, you got a handfull of super killing machines, but they can only be at one place at a time.

Back to the Somalia example. No tanks for political reasons. Okay, lets say they change their minds, which is better there? A single M1A abrams, or 12 sherman. A single abrams could take out all 12 sherman no problem, but a single abrams can only be at one spot at a time. If the Abrams is there, the enemy doesn't even bother, it just attacks where the Abrams ISN'T. But a Sherman vs a bunch of guys with AKs, recoilless rifles, RPKs?

When the enemy comes at you in waves of men like it did in somalia, during some parts of the vietnam and korean war once the units in question had limited support, you sure as hell want your 4 man fire team to be 2 assault rifles, 1 assault rifle+grenade launcher, and 1 SAW/light machinegun. (or more light machineguns) all using compatable ammo, and then more shots per pound of ammo was a great thing.

Now, in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has flipped the other way. There are no spots where we are short on air/artillery support (or so it seems to me) so the enemy cannot attack in waves because our heavy ordinance would rip em apart. Instead a handful of guys shoot at you from the extreme range of their weapons. In that case, having some longer range M-14 type guns would be great. So do you redefine the fireteam to eliminate the SAW as 1.) ammo compatability isn't an issue, reinforcements and air power will come before you run out, and 2.) probably no human wave attacks, and in it's place have a single long range weapon? That would probably work right now in Iraq and Stan pretty well.

But would it work well in the next conflict, against say North Korea, China, Iran, etc where again we might spread our handful of uber warmachines out too thin, and the enemy will attack with waves wherever our ubermachines AREN'T, and in that case you want the SAW back, more ammo per lb, and ammo cross compatability again.



As far as the enemy using assualt rifles. Hell, the enemy in somalia would probably have been better served with a PPSH-41 just as effectively (you know, soviet SMG, 71 round drum, 7.62x25) In Iraq now, you'd probably be better off firing your pot shots with an old mosin-nagant, it will go through more of the armor our troops wear, and it would outrange their 5.56 weaponry. Humm, maybe if you duct-taped a PPSh onto your Mosin....
 
The M14 is not an assault rifle.

The M14 is not an assault rifle.

The M14 is not an assault rifle.

And for that matter, calling the BM-59 the Italian FAL seems rather odd...like calling the AR-10 the American FAL. Err, wot?

Shoot an M14 with the fun switch, and then go dump a mag through an M16, and you'll understand the meaning of "intermediate cartridge" instantly.
 
An other rifle i used in the italian army during my service was the glorious M1 Garand but chambered in 7,62 X 51 NATO
 
According to that link, in the Italian army the BM-59 had the acronym FAL. Interesting...wonder why the heck they used a French acronym for their rifle?
 
Saturno, The first BMs were essentially M-1 Garands that were barreled
to 7.62x51, and converted to magazine fed Garands. I have a match
built 7.62x51 Garand so the action does handle the shorter cases
reliabily. Funny how Beretta serves a vital part of US arms and
developements. Seems like the M-9s their contract for replacements.
Makes me wonder how much joy was given with Garands sent back and
now 30 Carbines also part of the CMPs sales to civilians:neener:
 
Yes I remember noticing immediately that they were basically modified Garand actions to fire in full auto mode....we had models with folding stock and with regular wood stock

X Wes

Thinking about for one minute I think the reason for mantaining the FAL term is that FAL is the French acronym for Fusil Automatique Legere (Light Automatic Rifle) and you can use the same acronym in Italian "Fucile Automatico Leggero"...I think this is the reason.

To millions of Italian conscripts for almost 40 years the BM-59 was the FAL.....
 
According to that link, in the Italian army the BM-59 had the acronym FAL. Interesting...wonder why the heck they used a French acronym for their rifle?

They're both Latin languages. The acronym probably stands for the same thing and has the same letters in both languages. "Light automatic rifle" is what it stands for in French.
 
I don't buy the premise that removing the full auto from the M16 makes it an underpowered Garand. I don't buy the premise that we've outgrown the assault rifle and need to return to a full power battle rifle.

Both types of rifle still have their place. Neither gun will completely fill the other's role.
 
Léger, légère [adj.: "light, nimble, agile"]:

Probably the M16 and similar weapons will be relegated to the niche the M1 Carbine filled in WW2.

Powerful Battle Rifles using some new cartridge technology and reverting to the 7mm with all Steel core battle rounds will begin to show up, a sort of update .276 Pederson with higher velocities flattened trajectory and better choice of ammo types.

Recoil reducers and muzzle brakes capabile of increasing controlability, plus alternative light loads for use when full auto is more appropriate will bridge the gap between long range capability and CQB handiness.
 
I am using "assault rifle" in it's correct context.

There is no correct military context for assault rifle. "Assault rifle" is a term that was coined by Adolph Hitler after he saw the StG 44 for the first time. I'm not aware of any military that uses the term assault rifle. Be it an AK, M16, or M4, etc. it's just an infantry rifle to the militaries that use them.

Assault rifle (or assault weapon) is purely a political term used in a civilian political context. Since the term was first used with the StG44, the physical characteristics of the Sturmgewehr are usually used as the default definition. But the fact is that there is no commonly accepted definition of assault rifle. Here in VA, an assault weapon is legally defined as any weapon that uses a detachable magazine that holds more than 20 rounds.

IMHO, "assault rifle" is a term that badly needs to be relegated to the trash heap of history.
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