Overemphasis on caliber? Expect too much from a handgun?

[digsigs226]

Yes, we do place to much emphasis on caliber. In truth, all handgun calibers suck for incapacitation because none of them fragment on impact. I typically find that people that argue 9mm to be a "woman's caliber" are really ignorant people to being with. To me, getting good with your weapon is more important than anything else.

 

[Justin Holder]

A handgun simply can't produce the same amount of damage as a rifle.

I have shot trapped coyotes in the lungs with hot 10mm 180gr. gold dots. (a very effective pistol chambering)

At the shot they jump to the end of the trap chain and try to run, but after a few seconds their blood pressure begins to drop from internal hemorrhaging, they go stiff and die.

This is how hollow point handgun bullets kill, from simple blood lose.

More like a broad head tipped arrow than a high velocity rifle bullet.

 

[Weedy]

Qwert65: +1. A lot of suffering and death was inflicted with no significant results. And goats ARE tasty!

 

[Prosser]

http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html

- Even those who've read the "The Strasbourg Tests" often miss this part, or fail to understand its significance. As with the readers of the Marshall/Sanow "stopping power" volumes, they race straight to the charts which display relative performance, invariably missing the import of the opening sentence of the first chapter of their very first book: "Stopping power is an illusion."

 

[CDW4ME]

I mentioned comparing 2nd shot times, here is what I did, I compared a Glock 19 and 23.
I would place a B27 target at about 6 yards and see how quickly the 2nd shot could be kept inside the 10 ring (4''x6'').
If the 2nd shot failed to stay in the 10 ring the time didn't count. Both shots had to be in the 10 ring.
If I felt "slow" I didn't count the time either.
I tried to have 4 or 5 "qualifying" times for each then averaged.
I ran this comparison test several times and on different days, obtained consistent results.
Not surprisingly, the 9mm (even when loaded with +P+ ammo) was typically faster.
How much faster? Don't critique my times (remember the time only counted if both shots hit inside the 10 ring).
The 19 averaged .42 sec. while the 23 was at .47 sec.

Earthshaking difference? No. (hundredths of a second)

However, the 9mm model 19 seemed easier to keep on target, the timer confirmed it.

Apparently, even though I'm slow my brain can recognize a .05 difference, because I thought I was quicker with the 9mm before I ever got the timer. I'm surprised at how small the difference is and that I can actually distinguish it. (It’s actually an 11% difference.) My “test” is subjective, has human element.

This comparison is not subjective:
127 +P+ out of a model 19: 1,212 fps = "power factor" of 154
180 JHP out of a model 23: 977 fps = "power factor" of 176
The "power factor" is a way to compare recoil, it's bullet weight x speed / 1,000

The 9mm produces less recoil. It should be a little quicker on follow up shots.

I had always carried the model 23 (40) since it had a bigger bullet, 9mm model 19 was left in the safe (for years) as a permenant 2nd choice. In the side by side shooting, I "rediscovered" 19 and it's ease of keeping the sight on target. After the side by side shooting, I've started carrying the 9mm, G19.

Subsequent testing showed a further improvement in speed by using a 19c which averaged .40 sec. (very little disruption to the sight picture) and delivers 380# KE with each shot.

Save the comments on using a .22, how fast the follow up shots would be with a .22 ect… this is comparing 9mm and up.

My logic / thinking was / is if it takes 8-9 seconds to "incapacitate" a 150# goat that's not attempting to shoot back, not high on drugs ect... then it's reasonable to expect the same delay in effect if we were defending against a 200# guy that is attempting to shoot, stab, or otherwise kill / severely injure us.

That got me thinking about speed of follow up shots. Seems logical that follow up shots may be needed regardless of caliber and we would want to be able to place them quickly and accurately.

 

[dom1104]

All I can tell ya is, killed a few chickens this morning, and 22lr does the job.

Maybe I should call up Marshall and Sanow.

 

[fastbolt]

That got me thinking about speed of follow up shots. Seems logical that follow up shots may be needed regardless of caliber and we would want to be able to place them quickly and accurately.

FWIW, I've told our folks much the same thing regarding when they're using their shotguns & rifles, too.

 

[Prosser]

There are handgun calibers that kill like high powered rifles here's one:
This bullet went through the chrono @ 1566 fps, opened up to 1.32", that's a 2 bore rifle,
and makes a shotgun slug look small.

Heres another shot:


I have a bunch of guys that tell me I don't need this. That a .475" or .510" hole, with a cast bullet, at 1350 fps kills as effectively as a 375 H&H rifle. Kind of wonder how the arm chair experts reconcile these actual game observations on game from deer to cape buffalo.

So, there are a bunch of world class handgun hunters that actually use their pistols to kill game, and swear that the effect between the heavy calibers and the 375 H&H is negligible.
Therefore, the statement that ALL pistols are poor stoppers is not true, and yes, you can carry a .475 Linebaugh in a carry type package.
For the experts, how would that change your tactics, if you have 5 shots, capable of rifle type damage?

 

[Quickstrike]

There are handgun calibers that kill like high powered rifles here's one:
This bullet went through the chrono @ 1566 fps, opened up to 1.32", that's a 2 bore rifle,
and makes a shotgun slug look small.

Heres another shot:


I have a bunch of guys that tell me I don't need this. That a .475" or .510" hole, with a cast bullet, at 1350 fps kills as effectively as a 375 H&H rifle. Kind of wonder how the arm chair experts reconcile these actual game observations on game from deer to cape buffalo.

So, there are a bunch of world class handgun hunters that actually use their pistols to kill game, and swear that the effect between the heavy calibers and the 375 H&H is negligible.
Therefore, the statement that ALL pistols are poor stoppers is not true, and yes, you can carry a .475 Linebaugh in a carry type package.
For the experts, how would that change your tactics, if you have 5 shots, capable of rifle type damage?

You'd chose a really really heavy recoiling revolver with five shots.

Vs. Probably 10+ capacity of lighter caliber semi-autos that can be fired quickly.

Possibly fired by multiple goons, with 10+ each...

And everybody is running around behind things...

Dirty Harry ain't winnin' that!

The fight is over when you run out of ammo. Nobody goes after people with dangerous game rifles/revolvers for a reason.

Great for animals, suicidal for people. How would such a heavy pill expand in relatively light, thin skinned humans anyway?

 

[logical]

My 9mm may not ever win the dead goat derby, but it puts me ahead of the 99+ percent of the population that has no gun at all.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Meh.

 

[Justin Holder]

"My 9mm may not ever win the dead goat derby, but it puts me ahead of the 99+ percent of the population that has no gun at all."

I disagree, my sharpened stick will give your little 9mm a run for it's money.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Yes we do.

 

[Prosser]

Firearms history:

Martin Fackler considered, and proved the 18th Century Swiss rifle round, .41 caliber, soft lead, 1300 fps to be more effective then the current .223 rifles, on humans, due to the explosive expansion, and penetration in his wound cavity tests.

The .45 Colt, which was the standard the .45 ACP was designed to equal, was a 260 grain soft lead bullet, at around 1000 fps.

The above HP is 275 grains, has the explosive expansion of soft lead, and, recoils relatively little. The loads are in the 1450-1575 fps velocity range, simply because any less powder is hazardous. The load is minimum pressure, minimum powder capacity for the case. Recoil in a full sized revolver is relatively mild.

By far the most gunshot encounters are under 5 rounds.

Also, barrier penetration is a consideration, turning cover into concealment as the caliber goes up.

In goats or deer this is not a good round. It tends to expand violently, damage a lot of meat, and create a huge exit hole. Doesn't really work if your goal is to eat what you shoot.

 

[dom1104]

Prosser, are you actually saying you feel like you have the killing power of a 375 H&H in your holster?

 

[Prosser]

What I am saying is that with heavy bullets, cast, on deer or larger game, the .475, .500JRH, and .510 Linebaugh have been observed to hit very hard, and kill at the same rate the 375 H&H does.

This from guys that hunt game with these pistols, and game ranch owners who get to see MANY different weapons, on similar sized buffalo, etc.

 

[huntsman]

So, there are a bunch of world class handgun hunters that actually use their pistols to kill game, and swear that the effect between the heavy calibers and the 375 H&H is negligible.

Fred Bear did the same with a bow AND guide backups with a big caliber rifle, how about those world class handgun hunters?

 

[hemiram]

Quote-

Oldbear- There are some very serious questions about the goat test, like did it really happen. If these tests took place there is one important piece of data missing. The fact that the average animal is pound for pound tougher and stronger than a human; I’m in fairly good shape for someone who is almost 62, and I have a 15-year-old 15-pound tomcat who I can barely control when I have to.

I know what that's all about, except my cat was over 25 pounds and I was in my thirties to early 40's when I had the pleasure of taking him to the vet. I have scars all over my arms from those trips, along with a lot more from just "playing" with him. If he hadn't been declawed in front, I don't see how anyone could have ever done anything with him without just sedating him, which in itself was a real adventure. For years, he was the "worst" cat patient at my vet, but a few years ago, a new cat appeared, another big one, who makes my cat look like a "dream patient". He has all his claws, and knows how to use them. He ripped one of the techs arm open for the crime of passing by him. She didn't even look at him, she just walked past him as he

One good thing about my cat, he didn't hold a grudge. An hour after he had bitten the hell out of me for taking him to the vet, he was back to normal, and was actually pretty easy going, except when being taken to the vet.

 

[Prosser]

It is kind of funny when you think people start thinking they are as strong as animals.

My 14 pound bowling ball with claws is VERY fast. If she really wanted to get out of the house, we aren't stopping her. She jumps from the ground, to the top of the shower railing, with pretty much no effort. What's that? 8 times her height? When's the last time anyone jumped that, human? Lebron James going 50 feet vertical?

Likewise, the vets have a red sticker for her:
"Face front!"

Funny but the first thing they ask is if I want her claws clipped? I said no last time, and they clipped them anyway. Self-preservation I guess;-).

Watch an orange fir ball at the zoo, about 150 pounds, twist a giant truck tire into a figure 8 for fun.

I've had friends shoot bison with .510" caliber pistols. Blood is coming out like a fire hose, and the animal continues to stand up, like nothing happened. One guy
finally finished his with a 375 H&H to the brain, that after a very long time of bleeding, and still standing.

Ever tried corraling a frisky or mean cow, even a small one? Usually takes horses or a truck...

 

[Manco]

It is kind of funny when you think people start thinking they are as strong as animals.

But aren't we animals, too? The last time I was at the local zoo, I took a critical look at the gorilla enclosure, and frankly it didn't look like it could contain any adult human (of reasonable fitness) for more than a couple of minutes, tops (I didn't see any electrified wires or panels like there are in some other exhibits, either). Granted, this has nothing to do with brute strength, of which gorillas have plenty, but you'd think that they'd be able to do anything we could do physically, short of walking upright all day. But I guess they simply cannot. The next time I visit I'll try to find a zookeeper and ask them how it is that the gorillas can't climb down some rocks, cross a small, empty moat, and climb up some more rocks to escape.

Anyway, back to firearms, although human morphology is considered "gracile" rather than "robust," relative to size, plenty of determined people fighting for their lives have taken lots of bullets--even rifle bullets--and kept going, sometimes even surviving despite the number of wounds they suffered. That's why I think it's so important to balance per-round effectiveness with capacity and controllability (for shooting speed). You never know how tough a target is going to be to finally take down, whatever the species.

 

[Quickstrike]

It is kind of funny when you think people start thinking they are as strong as animals.

My 14 pound bowling ball with claws is VERY fast. If she really wanted to get out of the house, we aren't stopping her. She jumps from the ground, to the top of the shower railing, with pretty much no effort. What's that? 8 times her height? When's the last time anyone jumped that, human? Lebron James going 50 feet vertical?

Likewise, the vets have a red sticker for her:
"Face front!"

Funny but the first thing they ask is if I want her claws clipped? I said no last time, and they clipped them anyway. Self-preservation I guess;-).

Watch an orange fir ball at the zoo, about 150 pounds, twist a giant truck tire into a figure 8 for fun.

I've had friends shoot bison with .510" caliber pistols. Blood is coming out like a fire hose, and the animal continues to stand up, like nothing happened. One guy
finally finished his with a 375 H&H to the brain, that after a very long time of bleeding, and still standing.

Ever tried corraling a frisky or mean cow, even a small one? Usually takes horses or a truck...

lol, you can't even take on your own cat in a fight?


Speak for yourself.

Humans can be absolutely, and terrifyingly tough. Can't compare us to apex preds like cats or dogs of the same size, but there are people who've stabbed a lion to death while being dragged off, killed a leopard with his barehands, etc..

 

[Prosser]

My cat has a shread speed, and, at that speed, I end up like a sliced cucumber.
She doesn't use that unless startled or threatened.

Your cat is probably humoring you, since you feed her. Plus you out weigh her by 20 times. What if she weighed 50 pounds?

Zoo keepers at the SF zoo a long time ago told me the tigers and lions stay because they are well fed, and want to be there. The grottos are not really sufficent to contain them. Every once in a while, some drunk punk baits the tigers or lions, and they get mad, jump up, kill or maul the guy, and then they end paying.

Recently went there, and, they had let the hedge grow a bit. About 10 years ago, one of the tigers jumped out of the grotto, and walked inbetween the hedge and the iron fence, about a 4' high fence, with no wire, etc. The cat went the length of the fence, being PETTED by the spectators,back and forth, siberian tiger, and then she jumped back into the pit.

Last time I checked, most humans can't jump from a crouch over a 20 foot high moat, from a crouch, like it was nothing. Same with the walls on the grottos. Lions jump up to the top, and, they get them down with a fire hose.

My point in this is if you are going to take a defensive weapon against any animal, I want the biggest hole I can shoot, with the most shock possible.

There are now SA/DA pistol rounds that hit, and kill like the 375 H&H rifle.
When I asked a bunch of hand gun hunters about this, they come back with,
"ONLY a 375 H&H?"

For them, it's not even a debate, it's a proven fact. .475's and .500's are in a really different class.

 

[dom1104]

I am not sure what to say. This is the first "Handgun is more deadly than big game rifle" thread I have ever seen.

Flies in the face of convention... thats for sure.

 

[Prosser]

Ask Gary Reeder about his shortened .500 Linebaugh, the .510 GNR.
He's had guys kill elephants with it, and all the other big game animals in Africa, and,
the great bears.

Another guy, Otto Candies, and his friend Tom, have shot the Big 5 with the .500 Linebaugh, no problems.

Another group I know LOVES to shoot bison for food and sport. 430 grain .500" caliber
LFN bullet at 1350 fps (.500JRH). Hits very hard, and the guys that own the ranch swear it hits and kills as well or better then the 375 H&H.

Reason? Bigger handgun caliber actually are cutting bigger holes, and doing more damage, and, they don't tend to exit on car sized game animals. The 375 H&H tends to do less damage, punching all the way through.

But, as one very famous gun writer/hunter put it:
"DEAD IS DEAD!"

We really do live in a new age...

PS:
Just realized that my comments about the S&W snubbies are tempered by having large hands, and, I've never shot them well. Even a 63(22lr) was not accurate, or, I was not accurate with it.