No. They concluded adequate penetration was a requirement. They went on to issue 9 mm 147 grain non +P, until adopting the 10MM and later the .40.
+p+ 9mm ammo
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No. They concluded adequate penetration was a requirement. They went on to issue 9 mm 147 grain non +P, until adopting the 10MM and later the .40.
If it shoots well for you, then that would be more important than any slight difference in performance.
+p ammo
If your just going to leave it in the weapon for your wifes self defense why are you worried about wear. Any firearm designed for +P ammo can handle several thousand rounds without any troublesome wear. (If the firearm is not designed for +P it may only handle the first one). The reason people shoot standard ammunition in +P firearms is to save money. If you want your weapon for self defense load it with good ammuntion and practice with at least a few.
If your just going to leave it in the weapon for your wifes self defense why are you worried about wear. Any firearm designed for +P ammo can handle several thousand rounds without any troublesome wear. (If the firearm is not designed for +P it may only handle the first one). The reason people shoot standard ammunition in +P firearms is to save money. If you want your weapon for self defense load it with good ammuntion and practice with at least a few.
You're right. You should be worried about using ammunition you haven't practiced with.
I can buy +P ammo for the same price as non +P.
Some of us choose ammunition based on performance.
If you get handgun chambered for manly cartridge like .45ACP PmaxT will be about 21,000PSI for standard load and PmaxT about 23,000PSI for the +P load. Shooting "Looney Tune" 9x19 ammo might result in frame/slide separation during firing which will put lots of wear and tear on your skull. If I recall correctly this happened to PB guns issued to some "Ninja-type" US military unit that was using extra hot rounds in their guns.
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You guys that see no purpose in +P were not with us in the 80's and 90's when standard pressure 9mm's did not, far to often, do the trick.
Yes I know bullet technology has improved but +P and +P+ bullets made by winchester, Federal, Speer, Corbon or Remington, have improved too and in many cases are not just a little better than standard pressure rounds, and are not some "looney tune" 9mm ammo.
It is standard, mainstream police ammo for those still using the 9mm.
Yep, and some of us choose the +P+ by the same criteria and as I said before I wish I could shoot enough to batter a Glock 19 into submission...then I would know I am shooting enough
Yes I know bullet technology has improved but +P and +P+ bullets made by winchester, Federal, Speer, Corbon or Remington, have improved too and in many cases are not just a little better than standard pressure rounds, and are not some "looney tune" 9mm ammo.
It is standard, mainstream police ammo for those still using the 9mm.
Yep, and some of us choose the +P+ by the same criteria and as I said before I wish I could shoot enough to batter a Glock 19 into submission...then I would know I am shooting enough
Harley Quinn
Member
Regarding the +p+ design and ability to go through vests It is faster and mushrooms better at high performance speed, so the ability of it to penetrate a vest would not increase I would think
If it was a full metal tip and designed to penetrate
I could see it, but not when it swells up on contact
Regards
It is faster and mushrooms better at high performance speed, so the ability of it to penetrate a vest would not increase I would thinkIf it was a full metal tip and designed to penetrate
I could see it, but not when it swells up on contactRegards
KBintheSLC
Member
Do you really believe that +P+ will give you anywhere near 400 fps over regular 9mm+P? In a handgun, you would be lucky to get 50 fps added. I would further question your "reason" that merely increasing velocity means better performance. After all, it comes at the expense of decreased penetration, bullet fragmentation, increased recoil, increased muzzle blast, increased follow up speed, etc. You really have to look at the bigger picture, beyond the simple increase of bullet energy.
Yeah, sounds like they are still trying to make up their minds...
After firing thousands of rounds into testing media, Winchester's (2009) Ranger LE Catalog shows the following data on 9mm Ranger T's in 147-gr. and 127-gr. +P+ (page 19):
Gelatin
147-gr. = 13.9 / .65
127-gr. = 12.3 / .64
4-Ply Denim
147-gr. = 14.5 / .66
127-gr. = 12.5 / .68
Heavy Cloth
147-gr. = 14.0 / .66
127-gr. = 12.2 / .68
Wallboard
147-gr. = 15.0 / .67
127-gr. = 12.1 / .66
Plywood
147-gr. = 14.8 / .62
127-gr. = 12.0 / .68
Auto Glass
147-gr = 10.8 / .52
127-gr. = 9.4 / .48
Looks like results are about the same between the two loads.
yawn...
Since I own both of the above loads, I choose the one that shoots best in ALL my 9mm pistols..that'd be the 127 +P+.
The 147s run well through my carbines.
M
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I was there in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, working as a street cop in a large agency, getting in gunfights, testing ammunition, studying wound ballistics, writing firearms policies, and teaching firearms. I've looked at lots of dead bodies, and knew, worked with, and learned from men like Fackler, Wolberg, Van Horn, Fincel, etc., that looked at lots more bodies than I did.
Don't play your "you guys weren't there with us" card......
Standard pressure 9mm's, along with high pressure rounds, with projectiles designed to fragment and underpenetrate, "failed to do the trick". Most of the agencies that legitimately studied wound ballistics, including the FBI, LAPD, LASD, etc., aren't using +P+ rounds for their 9mm's. And that's a fact.
You're correct. In most cases they are not even equal to the same company's standard pressure rounds.
Call the LE department at Winchester, Federal, Speer, or Remington, (PM me if you need direct lines and names), and ask one of their specialists, (who are mostly ex cops with loads of experience), what is their best terminal performance 9mm load.
Hint: it won't be their +P+ round.
Great. Let us know where you got that criteria from. Which wound ballistic experts are you relying upon that tells you the +P+ rounds have better terminal performance?
I'm always looking to learn new things.
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Have another cup of coffee and read the data again.
The 147 grain round out penetrates the 127 in every category. Substantially in most cases. The expansion is pretty much a dead heat.
And as I said, that would be the best reason for your selection.
Wow.
Couple inches?The 127 expands as well as the 147 and penetrates the FBI requisite 12 inches through various materials. I don't see "substantial" performance differences.
M
Regarding the +p+ design and ability to go through vests
If it was a full metal tip and designed to penetrate
Regards
The SXT 127 +P+ did penetrate some vests even better than ball at similar speeds, mainly those made with laminate type materials as opposed to those containing woven fabrics such as Kevlar or Twaron. The theory at the time was the sharp edges of the SXT tended to break their way through those materials, where they caught in those with woven fabrics and were easily stopped. Most of the manufacturers addressed it at the time by adding some woven materials to their vests that didn't contain any. Last I had heard, all the majors stopped it in their current vests.
I was not talking to you and I will play whatever card I feel like playing.
Sort of like playing the "expert" card.Now that said, to the OP the 9mm +P+ is just fine in the 9, if your wife can handle it and won't batter your gun...so there it is
This is a pointless argument
wannasupra
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MLJDeckard said:
allow me to repeat, i have ZERO plans to take them with me downrange. strictly for home defense, at home.
I was not talking to you and I will play whatever card I feel like playing.
Classic.
KBintheSLC
Member
One last thought before I head out of this rapidly descending thread... it is always a good idea to practice with the ammo you use for self defense. So, if you have no intention of practicing with said ammo, you might be better served just using what you do practice with.
Best of luck, and thanks for your service to our country.
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Wow.
The 127 expands as well as the 147 and penetrates the FBI requisite 12 inches through various materials. I don't see "substantial" performance differences.
Well, the differences are around 10-30% in some of the data, and most wound ballistic folks like to see more than minimum, but fine, they perform similarly.
Like I said, the +P+ SXT 127 was designed to give adequate penetration, something most +P+'s won't do. If achieving lesser, but adequate performance is worth the recoil, blast, and accelerated wear penalty to you, than have at it.
Erik M
Member
I have some Federal +p+ ammo put back that I used as a carry load in my Taurus 92. Ive seen ballistic tests with it and even though the 9BP bullet is a proven manstopper I prefer the expansion of the standard load Hornady XTP and Gold Dot ammo thats on the market currently. The jacket separates and it explodes into shrapnel.
The 9BP's reputation as a "manstopper" was largely fueled by a couple of famous gunwriters, rather than by any actual data. The +P+ version (9BPLE) will usually, as you said, fragment, and penetrate less than 10".
But it doesn't do that any of that...didn't you read and understand my last post
Oh I read it.
If you wish to believe that a +P+ 9mm doesn't have more recoil, more blast, and more accelerated wear, than a standard pressure round, you go right ahead.
wannasupra
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i'd practice a bit with it, but for the most part, i intend to practice with something that approximates the nato round, as that's what i'll be issued at work. and it's my pleasure to serve my country and fellow citizens, even though at times it's not much fun.
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