Guillermo
member
please correct me if I am wrong...but is not today's 9mm "+P" about equal to regular pre-72 European loads, which are traditionally hotter than US?
+P Rounds in a Colt .38 special Police issue
- Thread starter chucklpetty
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please correct me if I am wrong...but is not today's 9mm "+P" about equal to regular pre-72 European loads, which are traditionally hotter than US?
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Lucky for all of us Federal has re-released their very effective 125gr standard pressure Nyclad .38 Special ammo. It's a time tested round that works well for SD in a .38 Special. My old Chief's Special just loves the stuff. Federal P38MA
ArchAngelCD
Member.
European ammo conformed to CIP standards, not SAAMI standards. Yes, CIP pressure limits are generally higher than SAAMI pressure limits.
Guillermo
member
but is not today's "+P" 9mm about the same as European 9mm?
I use .38 +P loads in all my steel frame Colts. Don't own an alloy frame Colt but if I did I would stick to standard pressure in the Cobra or Agent for 90% of my shooting and carry +P JHP's or LSWCHP's for a defense situation. A few +P's shouldn't ruin a gun, even the older aluminum alloy frames. I'd stay away from the +P+ loadings with any D frame.
The heavy J frame guns like the Official Police will stand up to heavy .38's, Troopers and Pythons are chambered for the .357 mag so .38's are at much less pressure in all their loadings.
The heavy J frame guns like the Official Police will stand up to heavy .38's, Troopers and Pythons are chambered for the .357 mag so .38's are at much less pressure in all their loadings.
Guillermo
member
absolutely not
That would be almost as bad as calling Smith and Wesson.
They have a script and will not deviate from it.
Carl N. Brown
Member
They have a lawyer-writ script tailored to the lowest common denominator of revolvers still in circulation and in shootable condition and factory chambered for .38 Special after X years of unknown care and maintenance. Makes me glad I bought a .357 to shoot .38 Special.
Not really. The term "Plus-P" has been abused to the point that nobody is really sure they know what it means. The only way to know (more or less) is to run your pet load through a chronograph to determine how it stands up to published specifications. Anyone that has ever done this knows that a lot of ammunition doesn't, but the devil-in-the-details is that some of it does, and even more so. There are also some firms and custom loaders (I'll mention Buffalo Bore) that make ammunition that aren’t exactly wimpy.
It is also true that in the 1970's SAAMI changed from using barrel mounted disk-crusher gages to electronic strain gauges that produced much more accurate results, and what some see as a downgrade was more of a case of making some adjustments.
On occasion the Old Fuff wonders why, when they're so many revolvers available that are rated to use Plus-P ammunition by the manufacturer, so many people insist on using it in older revolvers where there may be some risk, and repairs if necessary can be difficult and expensive. He also wonders how someone can make a blanket statement that contrary to the gun manufacturer’s position, it's always O.K. to shoot Plus-P ammunition in older guns - regardless of condition or age - when all Plus-P ammunition, from all makers isn't created equal. I would point out that any manufacturer’s warrantee today seldom, if ever - covers these older guns.
Does anyone even suspect that between the beginning of the 20th century and the 1990's when manufacturers starting making revolvers certified as "safe to use with Plus-P ammunition" there were no changes in material and heat-treating specifications? Am I supposed to believe that older steel and aluminum alloys were more pressure resistant then those used today?
Now frankly, I don't give a hoot what anyone chooses to shoot in their guns. When you get right down to it it's their business not mine. But if someone asks what my opinion is I give it; and it's based on an awful lot of experience.
Somewhere along the line readers have to decide who and what they believe, and that's also their business. What ever they decide I won't lose any sleep.
grendelbane
Member
I am not old enough to remember "back in the day", but I am old enough to remember having talked to people who were that old.
Most people "back in the day" didn't expect guns to last forever. Guns today are made of stouter stuff than they were back then. "They don't make 'em like they used to" doesn't really apply to handguns. Yes, they were prettier back then, but they are tougher today. Heat treating and better alloys have made handguns quite a bit more durable.
When Colt and S&W said their revolvers would fire the .38-44 cartridge, they meant that it was safe to do so, not that they would hold up well to a long term diet. My Official Police is not comfortable for me to shoot with most +p .38s, so I know I wouldn't shoot very many .38-44s through one. If I walked through a time warp and ended up in 1935, I would have to get a Gov't model, simply because all of the old time revolvers are uncomfortable for me to shoot with any kind of load that actually recoils.
Anyway, people weren't expected to shoot very much back then. Now, they love to shoot, and expect everything to hold together for many thousand rounds. The old Colts and Smiths, while great guns, no longer have factory support and parts available.
I think they deserve an honorable semi-retirement. If you want to shoot +ps, buy a more recent production gun.
Now, if I were reduced to owning nothing but my old Official Police, I would disregard my own advice, and load it with +ps. It would still give good service. Hopefully, I can afford to keep both it and a modern day gun going, however.
Most people "back in the day" didn't expect guns to last forever. Guns today are made of stouter stuff than they were back then. "They don't make 'em like they used to" doesn't really apply to handguns. Yes, they were prettier back then, but they are tougher today. Heat treating and better alloys have made handguns quite a bit more durable.
When Colt and S&W said their revolvers would fire the .38-44 cartridge, they meant that it was safe to do so, not that they would hold up well to a long term diet. My Official Police is not comfortable for me to shoot with most +p .38s, so I know I wouldn't shoot very many .38-44s through one. If I walked through a time warp and ended up in 1935, I would have to get a Gov't model, simply because all of the old time revolvers are uncomfortable for me to shoot with any kind of load that actually recoils.
Anyway, people weren't expected to shoot very much back then. Now, they love to shoot, and expect everything to hold together for many thousand rounds. The old Colts and Smiths, while great guns, no longer have factory support and parts available.
I think they deserve an honorable semi-retirement. If you want to shoot +ps, buy a more recent production gun.
Now, if I were reduced to owning nothing but my old Official Police, I would disregard my own advice, and load it with +ps. It would still give good service. Hopefully, I can afford to keep both it and a modern day gun going, however.
PRM
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Maybe so... Do they weigh in on the side of caution. I am almost sure they do. But, putting my money on what the company says VS what I read on the internet. Now, that's an interesting concept.
Shoot what you like - I'll stick to what has worked for me for the last 35+ years. This topic has been beat to death
powell&hyde
Member
I grabbed 2 Lyman books and went to the 38 Special loads and my 2002 Lyman book has the (+P) indicators. Compare the loads from 1967 & 2002!
Edit: added the 1980 Hornady 38 Special loads, note the (+P) listings.
Edit: added the 1980 Hornady 38 Special loads, note the (+P) listings.
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Old Fuff- I load my own. I use a 125 JHP at 1150FPS. If loading your own isn't an option, there are some specialty ammo makers who load 38 Specials to near full potential. Or find some old S&W ammo like they used to sell back in the 1970s.
How about that 125 JHP at 1380 FPS? Or the 158 at 1140? Now do you see why +P (125@925) is a gallery load?
How about that 125 JHP at 1380 FPS? Or the 158 at 1140? Now do you see why +P (125@925) is a gallery load?
Guillermo
member
Old Fuff,
Please tell us the statistics on the loads which you recommend as the maximum that one is safe to use in an older revolver. (say a 1962 K38)
Please tell us the statistics on the loads which you recommend as the maximum that one is safe to use in an older revolver. (say a 1962 K38)
Guillermo
member
that is your right
But I can tell you that SaxonPig will tell you the truth.
That is not the case with S&W.
They refused to answer the simplest of questions...including whether their ammo from the 60s is safe to shoot in their guns.
It is pathetic
Yes guys, but exactly how did they get those numbers, and did the ammunition's performance actually match what those numbers are? If so, what pressure were they running and how was that pressure measured?
Same questions regarding handloading data.
If you duplicate the performance, and measure the pressure using current strain gage technolegy what kind of numbers might you get?
Indeed there are. But I believe all of them recommend (for obvious reasons) that their Plus-P ammunition should be used in revolvers that are certified by the manufacturer to be O.K. for Plus-P.
I once had a conversation with an engineer from one of those "specialty ammo makers" concering which of the small-frame .357 Magnum revolvers would he recommend for use with his company's high-performance ammunition, and he said, "Ruger's SP-101, period."
Same questions regarding handloading data.
If you duplicate the performance, and measure the pressure using current strain gage technolegy what kind of numbers might you get?
Indeed there are. But I believe all of them recommend (for obvious reasons) that their Plus-P ammunition should be used in revolvers that are certified by the manufacturer to be O.K. for Plus-P.
I once had a conversation with an engineer from one of those "specialty ammo makers" concering which of the small-frame .357 Magnum revolvers would he recommend for use with his company's high-performance ammunition, and he said, "Ruger's SP-101, period."
Jim Watson
Member
It doesn't have to be either-or.
I don't shoot +P, +P+, .38-44 HV, boutique loader "full potential", or Skeeter/Elmer reloads in anything ALL THE TIME. I have shot enough heavy loads even in my Airweights that I know where they hit and how they feel, then load the gun with them to repel boarders. I shoot a few every once in a while for refamiliarization, maybe annually. My Airweights might have shot a hundred each, total, over a good many years.
My practice, recreation, and match .38s are 158 gr standard speed or 148 gr MR wadcutters.
I figure my guns will last at least as long as I do on that regimen.
I don't shoot +P, +P+, .38-44 HV, boutique loader "full potential", or Skeeter/Elmer reloads in anything ALL THE TIME. I have shot enough heavy loads even in my Airweights that I know where they hit and how they feel, then load the gun with them to repel boarders. I shoot a few every once in a while for refamiliarization, maybe annually. My Airweights might have shot a hundred each, total, over a good many years.
My practice, recreation, and match .38s are 158 gr standard speed or 148 gr MR wadcutters.
I figure my guns will last at least as long as I do on that regimen.
Guillermo
member
Old FUff,
What weight and velocity are you suggesting that the OP stay within?
What weight and velocity are you suggesting that the OP stay within?
grendelbane
Member
Apparently, I bought the wrong model chronograph. Mine doesn't have a readout for pressure, just one for velocity.
It would be nice to have one that measured pressure also, but pressure and velocity are two different things.
My OP, with its 4" barrel, shows higher velocity than anything else I have tried, including several 6" guns. Does it do this with higher pressure? Maybe, but I don't know. I do know that the bore is smaller than most .38/.357s.
Would a load that is border line in most guns be over pressure in my OP? I don't know, but I suspect it might.
I think my old guns will stay in semi-retirement. Perhaps it is not necessary, but I have new guns that are better suited for high volume shooting with higher pressure ammunition. If they break down, at least they are easily repaired.
It would be nice to have one that measured pressure also, but pressure and velocity are two different things.
My OP, with its 4" barrel, shows higher velocity than anything else I have tried, including several 6" guns. Does it do this with higher pressure? Maybe, but I don't know. I do know that the bore is smaller than most .38/.357s.
Would a load that is border line in most guns be over pressure in my OP? I don't know, but I suspect it might.
I think my old guns will stay in semi-retirement. Perhaps it is not necessary, but I have new guns that are better suited for high volume shooting with higher pressure ammunition. If they break down, at least they are easily repaired.
You can safely fire the original .38/.44 Hi Speed
In other words it's unlikely the revolver will blow up. But after awhile you'll likely wish you haden't.
If you have an even older pre-1919 Military & Police model you'll wish you haden't even sooner.
If you stay around 850 FPS with a 158-grain lead bullet a K-38 Masterpiece will out live you.
Why would anyone want to run high-end ammunition (as regular fodder) through a 1962 era .38 Special when they could buy a similar revolver (model 19) chambered in .357 Magnum?
silversport
Member
I'm with you Jim Watson...but I don't think this argument is about that any more...
Bill
Certaindeaf
member
Don't those Buffalo Bore regular .38 158's go like 1200 out of a 4? Maybe it's their +p's. I'm glad they sell them as not everyone reloads and'll spend like a buck or two per shot. It's good to know what your gat will take though.
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