(pa) Hirko trial; effect on no-knock police raids?

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hammer4nc

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Anyone else following the John Hirko trial in PA? For those unaware, police are named as defendants in this $900 million civil trial, which grew out of a botched drug raid on a drug suspect (Hirko) in 1997. This case seems to contain all the incendiary (pun intended) factors we frequently argue about on this forum, rolled into one...

Quick summary: Questionable warrant. The swat team arrived at the suspects house, broke the front window and threw in a "flash-bang" grenade, and simultaneously shot and killed the suspect. His house caught fire (big surprise)! Police, without any fire extinguishers, left his body inside to burn; his girlfriend escaped the burning house via a second story window. She was chained up for several hours at the PD, denied medical/legal services until being released. At dispute is whether the suspect used a weapon. The shooter/officer claimed Hirko fired first. But, Hirko's revolver was found wrapped in a cloth in the stairwell. The officer apparently had some "agression" issues with past employers. His incident reports were not filed per SOP, and only after he had retained legal cousel. All this over a total of $80 worth of drugs, recovered from the scene.

This case seems to be one of the few that actually threaten to hold officials responsible for their actions, to the tune of $900 million, if found at fault. Many of the discussions on this board regarding no-knock warrants show strong sentiments for and against their use. Perhaps bankrupting a few agencies and officials is what it will take for the tactic to receive serious reconsideration?

Some links, background information:

Hirko on ground when hit by final shots, doctor says. http://www.nj.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1068199678182270.xml

Officer who killed Hirko says he needed lawyer to protect his rights http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1068026701146150.xml

Cop, lawyer clash over raid events http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106794046587840.xml

Despite training, officer failed to bring extinguisher to raid http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1067681060242870.xml

Defense worries SWAT-uniformed officer could 'inflame' Hirko jury http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1067508261131190.xml

Hirko's fiancée recalls 'nightmare' http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106742209695690.xml

Fire expert takes city cops to task on drug raid actions http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1067335497298720.xml

Justice worried about warrant http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106672725441100.xml

Witness: Officers terrified fiancee http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106629505471240.xml

Multiple warrants questioned http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106620876530450.xml

Lawsuits raise questions about who's policing the police http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106603591190280.xml

Judge allows some testimony on cop's history http://www.nj.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1065863078266720.xml

Cop broke Hirko's door in response to warning http://pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/1065776798225300.xml
 
Read several of the links.........sounds like this incident was botched from the get go.
 
Lindsay PD, in the PDRK, ran a drug raid a couple of weeks ago. When they broke into the locked bathroom they found Jennifer Lynn LeBlanc. One of the officer's thought she had a gun in her hand and shot her to death. She didn't have a gun. So far the media does not know what she had in her hand.

Still waiting for the Tulare County district attorney to report on his investigation.

It seems all it takes to make the shooting victim into a bogeyman is say he or she does drugs, molests children, or has illegal guns.

Pilgrim
 
Don't see how people can justify "going dynamic" over drugs.

Ubertactical SWAT raids have their place - to stop an active shooter, rescue hostages or otherwise work to preserve lives.

Sending in Commando-Cops to make sure some lowlife doesn't flush his stash? I believe that unnecessarily endangers too many lives (the lives of the Low-Drag-LEOs themselves first and foremost) with no real benefit.
 
question...

I know there's probably a rational reason, but, IF the concern in a drug raid is that the suspect is going to flush the drugs...

Why not have the water main shut off ?

:confused:
 
Why not have the water main shut off
Click to expand...

A toilet can flush with the water contained in it's tank and bowl, IIRC. Turning the water off won't stop it from that final flush.

Chris
 
What we have here is a druggie, a low life, who was going to be arrested if he hadn't been shot. You can criticize the shooting all you want, but as with any shooting, what it comes down to is the belief of the officer at the moment they fired that they were in danger.Thats whats going to determine if this was a valid shooting or not.

If I was that officer, I wouldn't have immediately filed a report either, nor should any officer following a shooting incident, until they seek legal representation.If they are required to file a report immediately, they need to invoke their Garity rights.

I suspect the eventual outcome will be a monetary settlement to make the whole thing "go away", but I don't see a need to make anyone "pay" , as you say you want to see happen.
 
Cordex, bad things happen to bad people. He made his bed by his actions and the lifestyle he chose to lead. I don't have any sympathy for guys like that.
 
What we have here is a druggie, a low life, who was going to be arrested if he hadn't been shot.
Click to expand...

What we have here is a travesty of justice. Possession of drugs should not be a criminal offense in the first place, and certainly not something which warrants the deployment of no-knock commandos. The "War on Drugs" is a Permenant Empowerment Bill for drug kingpins, ranking politicians, and local police departments.

The officer should not have been there in the first place.

"No-knock raids" and SWAT units should be reserved for hostage situations or the rare "man running amok with a lethal weapon" incident. Someone's bag of pot is not worth placing either party's life in danger: the owner of the bag, or the officer enforcing a wrong-headed law.
 
What we have here is a druggie, a low life, who was going to be arrested if he hadn't been shot.
Click to expand...
The most dangerous drug in the world is adrenaline coursing through the veins of a gung-ho SWAT-moron. The only low lifes were the cowardly municipal employees who hid behind badges, MP5 submachine guns and the claim "we were only following orders."

You want the war on some drugs to end? I think a $900,000,000 settlement would move us in the direction a fair amount.

...what it comes down to is the belief of the officer at the moment they fired that they were in danger.Thats whats going to determine if this was a valid shooting or not.
Click to expand...
Oh, I believe!! I believe!! I hope these SWATstika creeps are in fear of losing their jobs.

From the Declaration of Independence:
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
Click to expand...

You Drug Warriors, like your boneheaded, corrupt Prohibtionist Bretheren 80 years ago, make me ... :barf:

Rick
 
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To get the warrent in most cases, the police have confirmed sales (crimes) with evidence etc. Then they go kill the guy to prevent him flushing $500 worth of unneeded drugs down the toilet.

Why not just arrest him without creating all the danger to civilians (good or bad boys)? "Because it blows our undercover's cover" doesn't, once again, seem like sufficient reason to recklessly disregard the dangers that use of SWAT tactics creates for ALL non-cops.

Maybe you want to go home after your shift so much that you don't care whoever else gets hurt - as long it's someone else. Sound awfully close to reckless indifference to many.
 
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Guys like that dont have single offenses on their records.His death prevented any prosecution, but people that live in the drug culture rarely have just a single offense to their name.
As to the guy who wants to see possession totally drcriminalized, I hope that your fantasyland never comes to pass. Drugs are a HUGE scourge on this country, and society cannot accept the legalization of drugs...if that ever happens, this country is truly lost.
 
I seem to recall alcohol being the scourge of the country. Prohibition was a wonderful thing, wasn't it. Once alcoholic beverages were banned, everybody saw the error of there ways, started attending mass regularily instead of sleeping off the effects of the evil liquor, and crime evaporated like fog on a sunny day.

BS! Prohibition is the problem. Drugs aren't good, but neither is the war on drugs. It leads to the infringment of people's rights, and as in this situation, the unnecessary death of citizens.

Was the guy shooting at the cops? Maybe, maybe not. But, if they didn't go and bust his door in wearing ninja outfits and carrying subguns, then he wouldn't be dead in the first place. If you look at some of the links, you will find that they hosed him down some when he was lying on the floor. This is right out of the movies. Shoot a guy a couple times, then shoot him 25 more times just for good measure. That's not going to look good in court...

This stuff is scary to think about. But, you want to know something even creepier? It could happen to you. Let me tell you a true story.

About a year ago, my brother went to the range for a little practice with his Beretta. That night, he's in his apartment, on the second floor, blinds half closed. He's cleaning his Beretta before he goes to bed, and he's wearing his PJ's and a bathrobe, watching the History Channel. He gets a call on the phone telling him that LEOs are downstairs at his door and that he should go down to meet them. He puts things down, and goes downstairs wondering what they want. When he opens the door, there is no one there. So, he walks out the door a little. There are four LEOs set up in ambush behind various bits of cover, with flashlights and guns drawn and pointed at him. They tell him not to move, look him over, instruct him to turn around, face wall, put hands behind back, etc... They cuff him, ask him if there is anyone else in the apartment, which he replies 'no', and two of them go and search the place, as my brother stands in the snow, with bare feet in his bathrobe. To make a long story short, they eventually go back inside to question him, and he tells them that he was cleaning his pistol watching history channel. They talk a little about his collection of guns, which a couple of the officers admire a little, and eventually uncuff him. Turns out that they got a call from a neighbor woman living across the street, who said that "some crazy person was in the apartment next door, smoking drugs, dancing around naked, and loading guns, and that she was scared." Mind you, there isn't the clearest of views, through two trees, a balcony railing, and the half closed blinds.

I am just glad they acted in such a professional manner and that everything turned out okay. However, this could easily have gone bad. My point is this: Guns + adreneline = trouble. A call from some frightened elderly blue-hair with poor vision and a voyeuristic streak, or an anonymous warning that someone is armed is all it takes to get the adreneline pumping. Where it goes from there is anybody's guess, which we can see by the Hriko incident. Sure, the guy may have been a junkie, but that doesn't mean that he should die for it.
 
Yeah, they should have just walked up to the door like the FedEx guy delivering a box of cookies. :rolleyes:
 
As to the guy who wants to see possession totally drcriminalized, I hope that your fantasyland never comes to pass. Drugs are a HUGE scourge on this country, and society cannot accept the legalization of drugs...if that ever happens, this country is truly lost.
Click to expand...

That guy would be me, and I'm a guy who doesn't even smoke. I enjoy a glass of wine (a drug "sanctioned" by the Ruling Authorities) with my dinner, and the occasional night out getting smashed so long as there's someone sober to drive me home. I have no interest in smoking pot or shooting herion in my veins, but neither do I care if someone else chooses to do so. I would only care if they would then a) expect me to pay for any medical treatment necessitated by their free choice or b) endanger me by operating a vehicle under the influence of a drug, threatening violence, etc.

Who am I to tell another adult they can't ingest or imbide whatever it is they want to ingest or imbide?

Drugs, like guns, are not in and of themselves a problem in our society.

Drugs, like guns, certainly do pose a problem when they are used irresponsibly.

Unlike guns, there is no explicit constitutional protection for drug use, but it is my belief that drug prohibition has and will continue to harm our liberties far more than the legal use of drugs ever could.

It's a clear case of the "cure" doing more harm than the disease. Anyway, I've probably drawn this thread off-topic, and for that I apologize.
 
but people that live in the drug culture rarely have just a single offense to their name.
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In a few years I can see some GunWar Cop saying, "but people that live in the gun culture rarely have just a single offense to their name." Actually, Sarah Brady is saying that now.
I hope that your fantasyland never comes to pass. Drugs are a HUGE scourge on this country, and society cannot accept the legalization of drugs...if that ever happens, this country is truly lost.
Click to expand...
The Harrison Narcotics Act was passed in 1915. The Volstead act was passed in 1920 (after the 18th Amendment). Do you think this "society" was truly lost prior to 1915? And why did the prohibition on alcohol require a constitutional amendment while the Harrrion Narcotics Act not?

TCSD is a true believer. He was hired that way. He was trained that way, just like any good salesmanager knows, he must first indoctrinate his sales staff for them to buy into selling his product.

The billions spent on the War on Drugs each year. The results? About 5-7% of the drugs are confiscated. The price rises. And the Drug Lords get rich. They don't want the WoDrugs to end any more than the cops do. Their livelihood depends on it. Our Bill of Rights be damned.

Rick
 
Guys like that dont have single offenses on their records.His death prevented any prosecution, but people that live in the drug culture rarely have just a single offense to their name.
Click to expand...

I just so happen to know someone that is a professional psychologist who is very successful in his practice. This person also spent 15 years in the late 70s and 80s experimenting with every drug I can think of. He has never been charged with a crime more serious then a speeding ticket and is also married and has 3 kids. Not your stereotypical druggie eh? How about this one, before you try stereotyping again, why don't you play the "Drug Addict/Rush Limbaugh" game. Every time a Drug Warrior uses the phrase "drug addict" replace with their favorite hero, Rush Limbaugh, and see if they'd still agree with the statement. Here's one from the Republican Drug Warrior Vermont Governor James Douglas, from his budget message speech on January 23, 2003:

As he said it:

"More than anything, these drugs threaten our way of life. All the values that make Vermonters great -our independence, thrift, work ethic and community spirit are endangered when drugs command our bodies. Addicts are not independent; they are dependent; they are not prudent in their finances, only concerned with funding their destructive habits; they are not industrious, but unproductive. When drugs come into our neighborhoods, violence follows and thugs and criminals dominate our streets. This is not the Vermont way."

Translated:

"More than anything, these drugs threaten our way of life. All the values that make Vermonters great -our independence, thrift, work ethic and community spirit are endangered when drugs command our bodies. Rush Limbaugh is not independent; Rush is dependent; Rush is not prudent in his finances, only concerned with funding his destructive habits; Rush is not industrious, Rush is unproductive. When drugs come into our neighborhoods, violence follows and thugs and criminals like Rush Limbaugh dominate our streets. This is not the Vermont way."


There is absolutely no way you can stereotype drug users because drug users are people you meet in every day life. You would never know they were drug users just by looking.

My opinion on this case goes back to the old cliche: "A dead suspect doen't ask questions, or tell any stories." Is it right for the cops to burn a house down and murder someone over a GRAM of heroin? I must ask, what fabulous police work led to such a raid on a building that contained a GRAM of heroin. While I do not condone the use of heroin, I also do not condone gestapo tactics on ordinary citizens with a problem.
 
I know numerous habitual users of drugs, both legal and illegal. Without exception (mainly because they are an already select group of people), these people are successful, reliable and dependable. It is my hope that the enforcers of the drug prohibition will be branded by history the same way we branded witch-hunters -- as devious and self-serving or as horribly ignorant and superstitious. The whole concept of hunting heretics, drug users or other non-conformists strikes me as evil and reprehensible.
 
I hate to break it to the "holier than thou" types, but everytime you drink a beer with your cold cut sub, you're doing drugs. Yup, you're a drug user. You are all going to hell!! All of you!! Deal with it.
 
Grey54956 brother story is weird to me regarding the police tactic.

Seems to me the LEOs were setting themselves up for a nasty ambush by letting the brother know they where waiting at the entrance. The brother might have exited the building from someplace else and come up behind them. Or, perhaps ambushed them from a window or the roof.

By the way, I mentioned this before, but last year in Balitmore four LEOs conducting a no-knock raid where shot. Six shots fired at them and five hits with a .45. The shooter did not even bother to aim. And, the shooter got away with it too. Pretty much took the fun out of that raid, I would think.
 
Yeah, the tactic confused me a little too, but the more I thought about it, the more sense it makes.

There are only four windows to that apartment, with all of them being easy to cover from one location. There is a balcony, but this is also easily covered along with the windows, along with the door. The place really doesn't make for a good ambush, but it is easily defendable from within.

So, I figure that with officers covering all the possible fire points from below, the biggest danger is that a hooligan might barricade himself inside, containing the situation.

The phone call serves the purpose of determining whether the occupant is indeed a whacko, and/or what his current state of mind and reason is. Having a suspect walk on down into your ambush, even warned that he may be doing so, is better than walking into his.
 
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