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PA: Restricted Devices Amendment

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Tiber, Jun 14, 2006.

  1. Tiber

    Tiber Member

    Hello all!

    I'm still in the process of building my AR-15 but I've borrowed a few for test fires. Aside of getting hit in the face with the brass (I'm a lefty), I like how it shoots well when it's well built. Also being a typical young-person with college debt and all the goodies that occur with the transition to adulthood (notice how I didn't say maturity -- I'm on to you!) the AR-15 is pretty much it for someone like me who wishes to compete in shooting sports and want a "does it all" gun.

    I got my letter writing ninja on and wrote the PAGC. "Why is the AR-15 banned if you allow automatic shotguns?" was the question. They told me, literally in two sentences, to please write the Governor. I composed the following:

    Included was my contact information. I am interested to know if there are other people of the same convictions about hunting in PA and I wish to encourage people of similar interests to write the Governor and encourage amendments to the hunting laws. Eventually I hope to complete my lefty AR-15 and actually get some shooting time with it, both in persuit of competition and dinner.
  2. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Well-Known Member

    Auto-loading shotguns can only be used in certain seasons and even then they must have a plug which limits the magazine capacity to 2 shells.

    No auto-loading rifles can be used, ever.
  3. carpettbaggerr

    carpettbaggerr Well-Known Member

    I'm pretty sure that's why he wrote the letter, Steve. ;)
  4. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

    F&G laws are generally arcane, difficult to decipher when you actually read them, and sometimes downright silly.

    However, given what I've read about northeastern hunting, I'd guess that the ban on hunting with autoloaders has more to do with the safety of other hunters you're shooting at (you can probably hear them cussing while working your bolt action), and the preservation of cows (you might hear them say Moo when you miss them the first time), than any particular prejudice against the rifle design.:p
  5. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I'd like nothing more than to be sitting on my deer stand and have some dufus start unloading a 30 round mag at a running deer. No thank you. Want to hunt with your AR, then take out the gas tube and make it a single shot.
  6. pedaldude

    pedaldude Well-Known Member

    I don't even now if they'd allow a single shot .223 rifle to hunt deer most states don't. I think 7mm would be a more do it all type if you intend on hunting or a .30-30 I think the mag capacity laws are so bad marksmen don't use it as a crutch and wound a whole bunch of game or just spray into the woods hoping to hit something, but you'd think a quick follow up shot with an auto would be more humane if it's not a one shot drop. They don't hunt sunday because of the puritans who ran the laws for a while, it's changing very slowly. I think effort would better be spent on ensuring that we have firearms at all and that a new stronger AWB doesnt pop up in the future.

    just get a good inexpensive bolt action like a savage. Even a cheapo single shot break action but a Nagant will do better for the same.
  7. Tiber

    Tiber Member

    Thanks for your concerns and suggestions. Yes, I'm writing to get the laws changed. The Sunday law rubs me more wrong then the automatics laws, but in states which allow automatics for varminting, the injury rate is about the same as anywhere else. As far as people spraying 30 rounds into the woods, the states which allow hunting with automatics generally restrict things to 5 rounds as I recall. Plus I seriously doubt getting an automatic into the woods immediately causes people to lose all common sense and spray the forest down.

    The Governor (or his aid) was extremely polite and prompted me to forward the letter to PA legislature.
  8. Azrael256

    Azrael256 Well-Known Member

    The only restrictions on action or ammo capacity here in Texas are no full auto and the 3-shell limit for hunting migratory game birds (I thought it was all game birds... all those years of quail hunting with 3 shells...). Admittedly I am not neck deep in the hunting community in this state as I haven't been out in several years, but I wonder if a more active member knows of any problems created by the use of autoloading firearms.

    As for me, I know of no problems created by autoloaders. I've been hunting once or twice with an M1, and a friend has taken deer with a Remington auto .30-06. I'm not about to go hunting with an AR or an AK, as I think the chances of wounding an animal are too high, but if somebody wants to take their FAL or BAR for a spin out on the deer lease, I see no problem. Responsible hunters can hunt safely with miniguns. Irresponsible idiots will cause problems with single shot .22s.
  9. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Well-Known Member

    Texas is a tad different from the Northeast, geographically speaking.:)

    A Marlin 336W costs less than a deer-worthy AR upper. A lot less. I'd be more peeved if I bought a nice BAR and found out I couldn't use it.

    Varminting? You mean shooting hundreds of yards in open country where you can see for miles, with a big scope and a bigger spotting scope? Couldn't be more different from woods deer hunting! Injury rates from varmint hunting have no relation to injury rates from woods hunting.

    California allows semiauto .223 for deer, but nobody actually does it, or at least no one I've ever talked to about it.
  10. coat4gun

    coat4gun Well-Known Member

    There are no problems caused by semi-auto rifles when allowed for hunting. Like ArmedBear said, this is just another arcane law that needs to be changed.

    Steve In PA: I have hunted in plenty of states that allow the use of Semi-Auto rifles and people just don't spray the woods with bullets. Why would they do it here? Are you saying that PA people are less responsible then hunters in other states? Sounds a little like the anti arguments against CCW laws.... the streets will run red with blood!!! and of course it never happens.

    There is no good reason that I shouldn't be able to take my Grandfathers Garand to the deer woods and hunt deer.... That would be just as historic as some folks using flintlocks to chase whitetails.

    And don't talk to me about magazine restrictions either. It takes me one shot to kill a deer and if I have 29 to back it up.... well that's no ones business but my own.

    I get so sick of Laws written for "what ifs" an "this could happen". If you are worried about someone spraying the woods write a law that says, don't spray the woods and shoot responsibly. Don't make a law that says 5 rounds only or 1 bullet in the gun at a time.... that is Guilty until proven innocent thinking and not what this country is founded on.
  11. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

    I don't have a problem with the current hunting laws in PA, so long as they reflect the majority will of the hunting population. They aren't an intrusion on your state right to bear arms in defense of yourself. The only gripe I have is the current confusion over carrying your CCW handgun while hunting.

    I'm with Steve. I wouldn't want to hunt in the same area as someone who has thirty rounds to spray at a dashing deer. Remember that thing called "sportsmanship?" Give the deer a sporting chance, dude. :neener: Kill it clean and quick with a well-aimed shot.

    I /would/ like for it to be legal to hunt with a suppressor. Overall, I think inexpensive, legal suppressors for hunting would create a net increase in safety. Not as much need to worry about hearing protection, so you have greater awareness of your surroundings. I know, some will say it'll increase poaching. While I don't condone poaching, it's not my problem.
  12. mp510

    mp510 Well-Known Member

    Aside of getting hit in the face with the brass (I'm a lefty),
    Stag Arms makes Lefty AR-type upper.
  13. Tiber

    Tiber Member

    While I agree with you in spirit, I think that the best answer to that is moderation.

    For the pro gun people: How many 223s can you put into something and still eat it? We're talking about a round with excellent terminal performance hunting people. Taking it to the field means that you're going to have excellent terminal performance hunting deer and other large game. The dimensions are similar. I remember the last deer I took with a 30-30 game king(?), the expansion was excellent, turned both lungs into jello, and took a thumb-sized portion out the other side. Now, putting 4 more behind it and you're really starting to cut into dinner...

    For the anti-gun people: I know the immediate reaction is going to be "YOU'RE HUNTING WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS?" No, we're hunting with a versitile, well documented platform. The return-on-investment on an AR is excellent because the lower can be used across many uppers without messing up the bedding (some guns care, some guns don't). But please, I'm going to encourage people to look up the price of a trigger job, and that really justifies the use of the "two halves" system. If anything, the best argument for it in my mind is that I have better control over the weapon if I can shoot many calibers out of the same, familiar, well-built trigger.

    This, I think, reflects the attitude from the middle ground. However, I hear people can throw a mauser action very quickly. ;) But, like you say at the bottom, "It's not my problem". I will decide what is appropriately sporting for my ability level. I also believe people own up to the responsibility of whatever sport they're engaging in. How many hunting injuries are there per year? Would you be OK hunting in the same area as someone carrying 15 rounds?

    Just as an update to the thread: I forwarded the letter to Senator James J. Rhoades and Representative Bob Allen who oversee the areas I usually haunt. Neither one of them has gotten back to me as of yet, but I emphasized increased tourism, increased interest of young people in shooting sports, and an interest in the technology.

    Real quickly, because I don't want to get off topic, can I use any barrel with their upper? I've been in touch with their gunsmiths and they said it requires a "special ambi barrel extension" to use the upper. Having looked at the blueprints for the M16, I am given the impression they're just blowing smoke at me, but I'd like to talk to someone who has a lefty from Stag and has replaced the barrel.
  14. The rare exception being a rifle which the gas system can be switched off turning it into a bolt action, and a 5 round or less magazine installed, such as an SKS.
  15. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Well-Known Member

    And there are alot of states where you can't hunt with a rifle, period. Shotgun only.

    BTW, I too have an AR-15 (Bushy M4) and an M1 Garand. If I want to hunt with the M1, I'd remove the gas plug.
  16. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Well-Known Member

    Being originally from PA and a hunter, I have no problem with the rule of no hunting with an semi-automatic (excluding shotguns). That being said, I always felt that it might be appropriate to allow hunting of small game with semi-automatic rifles and handguns in PA.

    Use of public land continues to increase and I doubt that the semi-auto thing will ever change. Be happy that you can use a rifle.
  17. mp510

    mp510 Well-Known Member

    How about catering a little:
    Since the AR platform is versatile, and allows the usage of multiple calibers through a single firearm, the number of firearms in circulation will be reduced by the use of AR type arms.

    Not sure, I'm right handed. I'm going to contact Stag Arms (local call for me), and ask them :)
  18. LAR-15

    LAR-15 Well-Known Member

    North Carolina has no caliber or magazine capacity restricitions on rifles.

    Just no SBRs or full autos.

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