Parkerization - standards and practices??

[Rob62]

I recently had a Remington 510, .22RF rifle parkerized by a gunsmith. This was my first experience with having any parkerization done.

Should the metal have been treated in any way before being dropped in the solution tanks? I believed that the parkerization process was similar to hot bluing, with the metal being either sand blasted or buffed out on a buffing wheel to remove any metal imperfections such as rust. There was no metal work done to my gun as far as I can tell. I say this because there was a large area on the right front of the barrel that had surface rust.

When I got the gun I started sanding and polishing this area down to remove the rust spots. So this area was a lot different in texture than the rest of the gun. Plus there were still some very minor hardly visible pits in the metal in this area as well. The reason I wanted the gun parkerized was to blend in this area with the rest of the gun. Plus have the metal re-finished.

When I got the gun back from the ‘smith the area that had the rust and minor pits on it was clearly not blended in with the rest of the metal. While the surface was parkerized the metal testure under the finish looked a lot smoother, due to my sanding and polishing. The very small pits/metal imperfections were still visible. So clearly it seems there was no attempt made to polish out this area and blend it in with the rest of the guns metal.

If the standard and practice of a professional gunsmith for a parkerization job is to simply take apart the gun and put it in the tanks then I guess I screwed up by not finding out what would be done. But if on the other hand the norm should have been to polish or bead blast the metal then I am a little upset.

The reason I'm not asking this question of the gunsmith that did the work is because there were some other issues we had where he will not get any further work from me. (He promised to get the job done in 6-8 weeks and it took him over 12 weeks to eventually get the gun back to me. I also don't like his communication skills - doesn't respond to e mails, doesn't quote prices on requested projects, this was prior to getting the 510 back.)

TIA,

Rob

 

[mete]

Do a computer search for 'parkerizing ' there's lots of info there. The process itself etchs the steel.It should be uniform.That rough surface holds oil well to prevent rusting .Today they use it as a bass for other coatings such as epoxy. You obviously have a poor gunsmith.

 

[scott.cr]

I have done home Park before. It's not hard, but the devil's definitely in the details.

Basically: Media blast parts to Parkerize. Dip in boiling degreaser. The frame must be absolutely, positively clean.

In the meantime you have mixed the Park solution and warmed it up. Once the degreaser is dried from the parts, you dip it into the boiling Park solution for a specified amount of time. Remove part, optionally treat with a post-dip blackening solution and let cure for 24-72 hours. Wipe clean and you're done.

Now if your Park job isn't good it's probably due to improper pre-prep such as degreasing. It could also be due to inferior Park products (they don't evenly blacken).

It's easy to get the job redone if you don't mind your gun getting media blasted again.

 

[slopemeno]

Parkerizing should be bead blasted first to scuff up the surface. If there were pits in the metal, occasionally you will need to polish the metal, just like a conventional polished blue, to get a baseline unpitted, smooth, flat surface to start with. This drives up the cost since the effort level, not to mention the skill level, begins creeping up.

I think this is a situation where the gunsmith should have called you and said "Hey-looks a little more pitted than I expected, what would you like me to do?" But from the sound of things hes not much of a businessman OR a gunsmith. The upside is it can be reparkerized properly since the bead blast will cover the tracks of the previous gunsmith. Hope this helps.

 

[Jammer Six]

Rob, I have to say that this sounds more like an agreement issue than a standards issue.

What did you ask him to do?

What did you agree that he would do?

Did you ask him to finish your work on the metal?

Did you ask him to prepare the weapons for parkerization?

Was there, in fact, ANY agreement about what he would do or not do?

While he may not have told you so, (you mentioned communication issues, and I have no reason to doubt you) if your agreement was not for the entire project (stripping, removing rust, preparation and refinishing) and if there was evidence that you had worked on the finish before giving the weapon to him, at best, the situation is ambiguous.

He may have assumed you prepared the weapon, given the evidence he saw that you had worked on it, and simply failed to tell you so.

Or he may simply not know what he's doing.

At any rate, the standards of most trades (not all, electrical work is one example) can be overridden by a specific agreement, and evidence that you had performed part of the work could easily be seen as a reason to interpret your agreement as having done so. It's pretty easy to interpret you doing some of the work as assuming some part of the responsibility for the results, certainly morally if not legally.

(I have no idea about legally, I'm a carpenter. Legal types are orthodontist. Or doctors. Or lawyers. Or something. I missed the details.)

In fact, from the other point of view, if you HAD prepared the weapon for parkerization, to your exacting specifications, using your private methods, standards and proprietary formulas, and then handed it to Billy Joe's Excellent Gun Smithery, Bait Shop, Blacksmith and Pakerization Center, and Bubba himself promptly ground all your results off, and re-did all your difficult, specialized work, even if he did it to the standards of the trade, and did a good job, you would probably be equally unhappy.

My point is this: if you did anything other than hand him the weapon, having done no work to it yourself, and there was no specific agreement about exactly what would or wouldn't be done, then in my opinion, uniformed as it is, you share at least part of the responsibility for the results.

Remember that I don't know anything about the parkerization process other than it's a good idea to do it when your wife isn't home. I don't know anything about the law except what the police have taught me, and that may have changed, because it's been a long time since I've been naughty.

But I do know something about business and customers, and I know very few businessmen and and far fewer customers who are careful enough about what they are actually agreeing to do together, in advance.

And those are MY specifications.

 

[Rob62]

Jammer Six, thanks for your in depth response.

I asked the gunsmith to parkerize my rifle. That was all I asked for or about at that time. I had believed, in hind sight now probably wrongly, that part of the parkerization process, just like hot bluing, was that the metal would either be bead blasted or buffed out with a buffing wheel.

Just like in hot bluing this would have removed all the minor surface imperfections and the old blued finish. I'm not aware of any gun smith who would do a "hot bluing" job without first doing some metal finishing such as buffing or bead blasting. Unless the customer specifically asked the 'smith to just drop 'er in the bluing tank. And then the rifle would still have to be degreased. This knowledge led me to believe that the gunsmith in question would also do some metal work as a normal part of the parkerization process.

Obviously, I now am more knowledgeable and know I should have asked more questions.

What I was hoping for was one of the boards gunsmiths to answer the question. Or at least comment on it.

Is it standard or normal proceedure for a professional gunsmith to do any metal work as mentioned above, when a customer comes in and drops off a gun and all he says is "I'd like this here gun parkerized"?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[BluesBear]

Anytime you have any finishing work done on anything, gunas, guutars, furniture, you should ask exactly what the jobber will do and if there is anything you need to do to prep it before they get it.

However, the person who did the work for you SHOULD have asked you how much prep work you wanted done. After all the more work he does the more he can charge you and the more money he can make.

 

[bear8mm]

either way

I've done parkerizing with and without blasting first. It comes out better (darker, and more even) with blasting, but it is not entirely necessary. You can even parkerize over bluing, but odds are it will be pretty blotchy. I wouldn't buff it by any means, the smoother the metal, the more trouble you will have with the park sticking to the metal. When I get a weak park job out of the tank, I hand sand it with 180 grit sandpaper, then repark, and that usually does the trick. The solution is cheap enough, and easy enough to do at home, that you would have saved money and aggravation by doing it yourself.

 

[Jammer Six]

bear8mm, do you have pictures?

One of the things the Brownell's site says is that smooth metal will result in a thin coat of park that isn't very resistent to wear.

I'd like to see pictures, if you have them.

I'm actually considering this operation at home.

 

[bear8mm]

hang tight while I figure out how!

I just parkerized a 25-06 receiver in a stainless steel bowl on the top of the stove. I did the barrel in a piece of capped 2" PVC pipe with hot solution poured in and let sit for 5 minutes. It came out really excellent. Neither was blasted, but they were hand sanded.
The first pic is the finished barreled action, the next is the receiver heating on the stove, and the third is the finished receiver. Last pic is the finished rifle. I used the zinc phosphate solution from Midway, $35 per gallon IIRC, but you dilute it to make 4 gallons of solution. When I did the barrel the first time, the park wiped off when I first pulled it out, so I sanded and redid it, and it came out beautiful the second time. Be sure to plug the chamber and muzzle with RTV, I also used it to cover the barrel threads. After I pulled it out, rinsed in the sink and let dry (it will look dark gray at this point), then sprayed it down with Kroil and let it soak for about 6 hours. I haven't even shot this one yet!

 

[Sam]

Parkerizing is easy, doing good Parkerizing is a bit harder.

Without the surface prep it isn't worth snot. Blasting is the right way and the only way to get it done properly.

Detail strip
Strip blueing
sandblast (Not glass or shot they are too smooth, use fine sand you want a finely etched surface)
remove sand
degrease
park
Neutralize
clean dry and oil ( I like to finish with a coat of Minwax put on hot and brushbuffed when dry)
reassemble (parts don't always fit right after park, it adds to the surface)
lubricate
test fire and clean
out the door.

I do about a hundred a year so getting it right is important.

You can do it in a container by pouring hot park solution over the parts but it is inferior in wear resistance to cooking it proper.

Sam

 

[Jammer Six]

What's the name of your company, Top?

Got a website?

 

[bear8mm]

Let's agree to disagree?

Sam, time to think outside of the box. We agree that the metal must be roughened. I grant that IF you have access to a bead blaster, it is the cheapest, fastest and least labor intensive way to do it. The solution won't know if the metal was roughened by sand blown by air, or roughened by sand glued to paper. If the solution is at the right temperature, and allowed to work for the proper time, it won't care if it is sitting in Tupperware. The truth is, I've got a beautiful park job done with no more equipment than a stainless bowl and a piece of PVC pipe and a gallon of solution, and it isn't "inferior" in any way. How much do you charge for a park job? I have an advantage in that my stuff was disassembled from the start, and the barrel was already white.

 

[Sam]

Jammer Six,
Wildcat Traders LLC.
Don't do a site. 90 pecent of what I do is bulk buy, refinish and resell projects, 30-40 gun batches depending on what capital I have and what I want to work on. I do individual work, just haven't gone out of my way to solicit much. That too will no doubt change. Lots of people wanting milsurps brought back to civility.

bear8mm,
Not saying that your work is no good, haven't seen any of it. It would be quite insulting on my part and that is not my intention.
You can rough the surfaces with sandpaper but getting an even finish on all surfaces is very difficult/impossible. Can't remove blems without removing metal. With good surface appearance being important in finish work, the best is none too expensive. If you do not have a blaster, go to your local headstone maker. Every town has someone tha6t does gravestones. He will shoot anything you want, might charge you 5 bucks. It will save you much elbow grease and may significantly improve your finishes. Other things you can do with a blaster that make it a big plus is the ability to blend away minor dings, corrosion spots and tool marks. Gives a uniformly higher quality of work without visible alteration.

Parkerizing is a coating, length of time in solution is a big determinant in how thick that coating is, along with immersion time comes temperature.
That and time are controllable in the SS pan over a stove. Basically how I do it, just use a bigger pan and stove. With the PVC pipe method, maintaining a good even heat is difficult, preheating the metal can help but you need to recycle a lot of solution continously to keep heat uniform for any length of time. I like to cook with a weaker solution for a longer time, seems more durable and uniform.

If you had the opportunity to borrow a tank and burner would you do it? Why?

Again, not denigrating your work, it probably is just fine. The discussion was what a proper smith should be doing for a paying customer.

As for charges, that depends on the weapon and what you want. For an M1 in decent shape (not rusted into oblivion), manganese black park job would be about $70 not including freight. That includes doing the stock furniture, but nothing to the gas cyl.

Sam

 

[bear8mm]

If I had a tank and burner, of course I would use it. The main obstacles are price and space. I'm just saying that it can be done without it. I do have time to work around obstacles (lack of blaster or tanks and heaters). I'm kind of finicky about my rifles, and if the "workaround" was substandard, I wouldn't use it. Good suggestion on the gravestone makers, but for the price of another rifle, I'll probably get a compressor instead. I already have some iron tanks for hot bluing, but no burners or stands, or any room to set them up if I did. I've tried all the different cold bluing methods, without a lot of satisfaction with the finished product. Rust bluing looks good, if you have a lot of time. The parkerizing is more durable, looks just as good, and takes a lot less time.

 

[jisco]

Park. Tank?

Short of building my own, can anyone tell me where I might buy a SS tank?

Thanks
jisco

 

[Riss]

Try your local dollar store for a cheapo chinese SS pot. I have a large commercial size steam table traay. The kind that you can put 5 gallons of fried chicken in at the buffet. They are large enough to do a 18" barrel diagonally and deep enough to handle anything that you don't need the deep chinese SS pot for. Pots are better all around though. They use less Park' fluid to fill to the top and heat up quicker.

 

[DSS]

I do parkerizing almost every day as a living. I have found that different materials in the sand blaster produce different finishes. Glass beads generaly come out very light colored at the end and silicon carbide blasting comes out very dark. Sanding and polishing all depends on the way it was done. It usually comes out really light. The metal has to be extremely clean as a rule before it goes into the bath. I usually go straight from the sandblaster into the parkerizing bath. I do my best to degrease guns before they go in the sand blaster so I don't contaminate the sand.

When I do an M14 for example I use pretty course silicon carbide sand in the cabinet. It comes out a nice dark charcoal color that is just like original. On garands for those that want an original shade of parkerizing but don't care if it is zinc or manganese all I have to do is change out the sand with some that is mixed glass beads and sand. It comes out the nice gray color they are after and I still get to use the manganese phosphate that I prefer.

It is all in the surface prep. Look at some of the pictures on my gunsmithing page to see the differences on some.

http://www.dansshootingsupply.com/gunsmithing.htm

When I get really badly rusted or pitted ones there are several things I do. All of it time consuming. Filing is most common blending in some of the deeper ones. I try not to have to weld any in but I have. That is usually too cost prohibitive for the customer anyway. Most of the smaller pits will be removed or blended out by the blaster but bigger ones need hand work. It isn't hard. Just more time consuming.
Some rust pits are so deep or in the wrong place I even have condemed the gun to a wall hanger. Not all of them are fixable.

 

[Sunray]

Parkerizing always comes out in different shades of grey depending on the steel it goes on. It is not, however, in any way, shape or form the same as hot bluing. Nor is the pre-finishing work the same. Rust off for sure, but you usually don't need to buff or polish. Pitting is nearly impossible to completely remove. Pitting means that rust has eaten the steel away. There's not much that can be done about it that won't weaken the steel.
With no offense intended to DSS, I'd send a rifle to be parkerized to a metal finishing shop and not a smithy. Most smithy's are busy all the time. It took about a week for mine to come back to me when I had mine done long ago. Even the gas tube is parkerized a nice light shade of grey. Mind you, there was no rust or pitting.

 

[DSS]

Gas tube on what type of rifle? You can't parkerize them on a US service rifle. They are made of stainless. I do something else to make them the same color. Some of the chinese M-14 clones have a different grade of stainless in the gas system that does parkerize but I see less and less of them these days. They used better stainless I guess on the later ones.

It is illegal for a metal finishing company to parkerize a weapon too BTW. Unless they have an ffl. Gunsmithing requires an ffl. I wouldn't trust any of the metal finishing companies I know of around here either. They don't know a gun from a plow share. They wouldn't take the time or care to make it look like new either. How could you blame them if they didn't know any better and didn't plug the bore. You can't. YOu will be going home with a nicely etched ruined bore. It really is best left to a good gunsmith. Time to do it is not a issue when safety of a firearm is concerned. I have told customers a firearm isn't safe to fire before when I got it to refinish. It's not often but it happens. Wouldn't you want an expert on the gun to do it rather than have it done fast?
We try not to be too slow though. It's just me and my son usually but we manage a turn around under a month except for right now. I got really backed up doing a truckload of mags. People understand though.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

I used a SS pot on top of my gas grill. The solution was manganese phosphate from Shooters Solutions. I degreased my parts and bead blasted them with 80 grit glass. The first time I did a gun, it didn't turn out very well- it was a light gray and wore quickly. It was also kind of splotchy. I don't believe I got the solution hot enough. The second gun came out very nice, almost a black, and strangely enough, it was with a zinc phosphate solution, which is supposed to be lighter than the manganese.

Check out www.shooterssolutions.com
www.blindhogg.com

Parkerizing is loads of fun.

 

[DSS]

Shooters solutions is good stuff. If you are gonna do it at home that is the brand I recommend. It's the easiest to use. I use Brownells and it works just as good but does need special things done to a new batch to season it. It's kindof a pain. The SS stuff doesn't require anything special at all. The man that ownes the company is very helpful on the phone too is you shoud need it.

Most of the quality parkerizing chemicals are reusable too. Most manufactures always say the others aren't but they are. I've used every one commercially available I think. My tank only gets replaced when I clean the tank about every month. Between that I mix up some fresh stuff, top off the tank and go at it. I have two 5 gallon tanks and usually have to add about a gallon and a half after each day of use.

 

[Vic]

Professional Parkerizing?

I've been using zinc phosphate for about 5 years. I do side jobs for a local gunshop. I always require that it be bead blasted prior to parkerizing and if blemishes are bad, they need to be worked out with 220/320grit prior to bead blasting. I've done maybe 50 handguns and rifles. My experience is, the older they are, the more they resist even parkerizing. I had a really tough time with a 1917 Eddy, 1903 Springer, and a low serial number Ruger .44 carbine. The El-Cheapo .22 rifles of the late 50's and early 60's take it well and come out nice, as do the older steel reciever shotguns (sears/western auto/etc). Making sure they are totally degreased prior to parking is a big one too! All this guy did was boil metal. Parkerizing is NOTHING like bluing. Bluing is FAR a more complexed and labor intensive ordeal ( I thought about doing it until I read how to preform the old Winchester "rust blue" procedure...aint no way buddy).

 

[DSS]

I just had fun on a couple of M1917's. A winchester and a Eddystone. I rebarreled both with brand new from the wrapper JA military barrels that I got real lucky finding. The receivers and attached parts came out great but the barrels were surface hardened really good. I had to redo them twice and the second time I put fresh sand in the blast cabinet. They came out even the second time around but that first time the barrels came through with shiney spots. My shield was getting etched pretty bad in the blaster and I probably should have changed it out so I could see better. Maybe I just didn't blast those areas evenly the first time. No big deal though. As long as they are perfect when they go out the door.

 

[Vic]

1917's

It took me a couple trys on the 1917 and the 1903 to get acceptable results. They were not perfect, but complete coverage to an acceptable degree. With the old ones, it's not an easy "one shot" deal, I gotta work at it. I also tried the shooter solution. It did a good job but I think it's too pricy. I used to use Amer-Lene gray. Very forgiving stuff. If you had a bad spot, you could clean it off and throw it right back in and it would cover perfectly (shooters would prob do the same because it's good stuff). My problem is that SS is just to expensive and if I do it right the first time, I can get excellent results with the Brownells Zinc (yes, I have to fuss with seasoning and straining, etc). I can keep my price acceptable using brownells stuff. Amer-Lene is out of business but they had the best concentrate solution at the lowest price on the market. I called the company and told them that and they pretty much asked me if I wanted to buy the formula. The worst mistake they made was having one distributor and NO advertisement or promotion of the product.