Pastor Shot to Death.. Illinois Gun Control Fails

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"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything,...That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways. But we know we can trust Him no matter what, and draw close to Him in any circumstances. Let's draw closer to Him and to one another during this terrible tragedy, and renew our faith and obedience to His purposes for however many days we have remaining to serve Him."

Wow. Amen brother.
 
the alleged shooter was reported to be suffering from lyme disease, which, according to the news, affected his brain.

prior to getting bitten by a tick, he was, by some accounts, a stand-up gun owner and hunter.

this is just terrible. my prayers for the victim and his family.

a stern reminder to all of us to not let a tick bite turn us into a bunch of mottle-brained killers.
 
"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything,...That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways. But we know we can trust Him no matter what, and draw close to Him in any circumstances. Let's draw closer to Him and to one another during this terrible tragedy, and renew our faith and obedience to His purposes for however many days we have remaining to serve Him."

Wow. Amen brother.

I second that. Beautifully spoken words in such a difficult time.
 
We can thump our chests all we want about how a CHL in the congregation would have prevented this, but that's an unknowable conclusion. By all appearances, church staff could have lawfully been armed (and/or posted guards, as has been done elsewhere). The fact that the church did not feel inclined to avail themselves of their right to lawful self-defense is sad, but it's their call.

This is true. Having members with CHLs could have prevented or limited this, but you can't say that it would have. The pastor an his congregation were willingly unarmed, as you said.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the pastor, his family, and his congregation.

"Our great God is not surprised by this, or anything,...That He allows evil and free will to have their way in tragedies like this is a mystery in many ways. But we know we can trust Him no matter what, and draw close to Him in any circumstances. Let's draw closer to Him and to one another during this terrible tragedy, and renew our faith and obedience to His purposes for however many days we have remaining to serve Him."
 
Criminals have every right to buy weapons and ammo and circumvent all these laws

Um, are you SERIOUS? WRONG!

I've never read a single stitch of law where it says "criminals have the RIGHT to do anything."

It's the fact that they have NO RIGHT to do these things but do them anyway, that makes them a criminal.
 
This tragedy has "hit home" in a very real way. My wife went to school with the pastor. When they showed his yearbook picture on the local news, her picture was right next to his. My wife's sister was watching the news with the sound turned down and saw "CHURCH SHOOTING" and her little sister's yearbook photo on the screen. She called here more than a little freaked out.

Let that sink in a little. These aren't people in the abstract. These are people in the real . . . all of them.

I'd really appreciate, as rbernie suggested, reading some compassion all the way around in this situation; particularly for the deceased. And, I'd personally like reading a little compassion for the family of the man who killed the pastor if not the man himself.

A little background from accounts that we've learned. The 27-year-old man who shot the pastor was unknown a the church. No one in the pastor's family appears to know him. He was supposedly suffering from Lyme disease and there is some dispute as to whether or not Lyme disease might have led to this behavior. So, the claim of the OP that this was some violent mad man, and the depiction that he might have been stopped prior to committing the horrible act is a little dubious as we just do not know.

A very good family friend contracted Lyme Disease several years ago and ended up killing himself. He shot himself in a hospital parking lot. There was nothing in his makeup that hinted and suicidal thoughts. He was a warm, loving, successful family man with absolutely no previous signs of depression, suicidal tendencies, etc. prior to contracting the disease.

Ultimately, the idea that guns in the church would have prevented this is as unknowable or as unprovable as is saying that had the man worn a flea and tick collar he wouldn't have done it. All we do know is that a man is dead, another is near death, and two others are injured. A wide community of people have suffered staggering loss.

As proponents to the second amendment and practitioners of concealed carry we should be as diligent and thorough in our efforts to de-escalate situations before they come to violence as we are in our insistence that guns will prevent it.
 
Many of the actual FACTS of the event haven't been published yet, if they've even been determined. I've read conflicting reports this morning on whether or not the shooter stabbed himself, for instance (USAToday says yes, CNN says nobody is certain).

From what little I've read of the account of the shooting, the man was not perceived as a threat by the pastor or the congregation until the gun appeared and/or the shooting started. An exchange of words happened between the pastor and the shooter, but so far no FACTS about what was actually said, the tone in which they were said, if they alarmed anyone including the pastor. I have my doubts whether another armed person in the church would have prevented this shooting, given no other change in the circumstances.

I agree with TAB in post #3. Compare this shooting with the assassination of Gandhi and you might agree. There were already several attempts on Gandhi's life before his assassination in a crowd of people. Even with the friendly crowd nearby and some depictions of people close at hand helping Gandhi walk, the assassin got off several shots (I've heard a minimum of three) at close range.

A CCW holder might have ended the shooter's life after the pastor was shot, but I still think the pastor could have been wounded even if he managed to get a weapon out. Assuming the pastor did get a weapon out he might have accidentally hit one of the people in the crowd behind the shooter (remember your target and what is beyond, eh).

Right now, too many variables and not enough facts to know whether or not another shooter in the congregation could have saved the pastor. The pastor put his trust in God, and I hope he's with him. A tragic loss.

jm
 
One of the write ups I read on this story yesterday said that the suspect did not have an IL FOID. If I can find the article again, I'll try to post it on the thread.
 
Maybe armed congregation members might not have stopped THIS exact scenario, but one can imagine scenarios involving multiple gunmen, hostages, someone with a bomb, etc. where armed congregation may intervene.

Besides, we can all agree that CCWs overall reduce incidences of violent crime; why would a church be any different?
 
leadcounsel, I agree that there are circumstances where one or more responsible, law-abiding people carrying concealed weapons can help. I have no problem with allowing CCW in churches. I also agree with the poster who said that a concealed handgun is not a talisman against death.

jm
 
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Maybe armed congregation members might not have stopped THIS exact scenario, but one can imagine scenarios involving multiple gunmen, hostages, someone with a bomb, etc. where armed congregation may intervene.

But we're not talking about any imaginary scenarios, we're talking about what happened in Maryville yesterday.

Besides, we can all agree that CCWs overall reduce incidences of violent crime;

No we can't all agree. In fact the latest research finds that all gun laws, those that restrict the possession and use of guns and those that permit it have virtually no effect on crime rates. There is no documented increase in public safety because of CCW. Crime rates have continued to move up or down based on factors that really effect them, like the number of males between the ages of 14 and 28 in a population and other socio-economic factors.

As to if CCW would have saved anyone in this incident, it's looking more and more like it wouldn't have. Apparently many in the congregation initially thought the shooting was a skit as part of the service:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...DEB1CA304D8EA6198625757400146485?OpenDocument
Church shooting suspect has mental illness from Lyme disease
By Joel Currier, Jeremy Kohlerand Nicholas J.C. Pistor
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
03/09/2009


MARYVILLE — A man suspected of killing the Rev. Fred Winters during a church service in Maryville on Sunday morning had developed mental illness from a tick bite, his family has said.

Police did not release the name of the suspect, who was seriously injured in a struggle with members of the congregation after the shooting of Winters at the First Baptist Church.

But a source close to the case confirmed late Sunday that it is Terry Joe Sedlacek, 27, who was the subject of a Post-Dispatch story in August about how Lyme disease had attacked his brain.

His home in the first block of Zachary Court in Troy, Ill., about three miles from the church, was searched late Sunday afternoon by police, who seized some gun cases and a computer. They would not comment.

Vehicle records show that Sedlacek is part-owner of a Jeep Wrangler parked outside the crime scene.

Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent said that the vehicle, which was kept under guard, was believed to have been used by the attacker. Trent described the gunman as a 27-year-old who lives in Troy with no criminal record and no state firearms-owner identification.

Trent declined to confirm the suspect's name, pending filing of charges.

Winters, 45, was shot about 8:30 a.m. by a man who walked down the aisle during the service, exchanged words with Winters and fired his .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun four times before it jammed, police said.

The first shot shredded Winters' Bible, sending paper shreds into the air like "confetti," Trent said. One of three more shots hit Winters in the chest. Nobody else was hit.

Two church members wrestled the attacker down as he slashed them, and himself, with a knife.

The attacker and one of the wounded congregation members, Terry Bullard, 39, of Troy, were treated at nearby Anderson Hospital and airlifted to a St. Louis hospital for surgery, officials said. Both were reported to be in serious condition. Winters died at Anderson.

The other injured congregation member, Keith Melton, 51, of Troy, was treated at a hospital and released. Melton could not be reached, but his home answering machine has a message thanking callers for their concern.

Trent called Bullard and Melton "heroic" for stopping something that could have been worse.

Police and some congregation members said the shooter had no known connection to the 1,200-member church at 7710 Illinois Route 162, a short distance west of Interstate 55-70.

Trent said the motive for the shooting was unknown.

"We haven't spoken with him yet," Trent said at midafternoon. "He's still in surgery." He said the gunman suffered a stab wound to his neck.

It appeared that nobody was home late Sunday afternoon at the house on Zachary, where a state trooper stood guard until other officers arrived, ostensibly with a search warrant.

The home is listed as the address of Sedlacek and his mother, who co-owns the Jeep.

Neighbors told a reporter that Sedlacek appears to be mentally ill and would sometimes stand in the street and shout obscenities for no apparent reason.

He was the subject of an Aug. 6, 2008, Post-Dispatch article about his battle with mental illness attributed to Lyme disease. The man's mother, Ruth Abernathy, said her son, an avid hunter and outdoorsman, may have contracted the disease after being bitten by an infected tick on a family farm in the late 1990s.

He became ill during his junior year at Edwardsville High School and had taken several medications, including anti-seizure drugs, to combat the disease. It nearly killed him in 2003, but he survived after a series of treatments and was reported to have lesions on his brain.

Abernathy could not be reached for comment Sunday.

The attack stunned about 150 church members attending the early service. "Some thought it was some type of skit or program at the time," Trent said.

Police will review video and audio tapes made of the service, Trent said.

Church member Linda Cunningham said she was sitting in the back of the church when the shooter walked up the center aisle.

Winters' wife, Cindy Lee, and their daughters, Alysia Grace, 14, and Cassidy Hope, 12, were in the church but not in the sanctuary when the shooting occurred, church members said. The couple were married in 1987.

Some churchgoers initially believed the shooting was part of a dramatic sketch — something that is common during Winters' services.

After the first shot was fired, Cunningham said, "All you could see was confetti."

Andy and Kris Nothnagel, of nearby Glen Carbon, were sitting about five rows from the pastor when the gunman opened fire.

They, too, said they thought it was part of a play.

"We didn't know if it was real," Andy Nothnagel said.


The couple, who have belonged to the church for about 12 years, said they had never seen the gunman before.

"He didn't look scary," Kris Nothnagel said. "He could have blended in with anybody."

Security experts say church shootings are particularly shocking because worship sanctuaries are so often thought of as a respite from the world's evils, where people come together for the sole purpose of praise and love.

Yet that very notion, say safety experts, leaves them more susceptible to danger.

"The biggest thing churches need to do is get over the 'it can't happen here' mentality," says Jeffery Hawkins, who has worked in law enforcement and security for 30 years and last year started the Christian Security Network. "It's the No. 1 stumbling block of churches."

Officials said the church had been working with some of its members to develop an emergency readiness strategy.

The Rev. Mark Jones, its worship minister since 2002, told reporters assembled outside the church: "People cannot stop living their lives. They cannot be paralyzed with fear."

The sprawling grounds of the church are on the east edge of Maryville, tucked between farmland and an unfinished subdivision.

The website says Fred Winters is the former president of the Illinois Baptist State Association and an adjunct professor at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

T.J. Beckman, a church member whose twin 12-year-old sons, Jordan and Canaan, were baptized by Winters last fall, described him as a "man of courage and integrity" who dedicated his life to the church.

"He is a modern-day martyr," said Beckman, 47, of Collinsville. "We're shattered, shocked by this heinous crime, but we know there is hope beyond this."

Beckman said Winters' death should bring the church's members closer.

"This is not the end of this church," she said. "I think this church is going to grow even stronger. We have that hope."

Michele Munz and Christine Byers of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

[email protected] | 636-255-7210

I think it's jumping to all kinds of wrong conclusions to be making statements about how CCW would have saved the day. Maybe it would have, and maybe it wouldn't have, but as more information comes out, I don't think a reasonable person could conclude that armed congregation members could have prevented this. It's a tragedy and it's starting to like nothing short of airport type security members would have prevented it.

Here is an article the Post Dispatch published in August of 2008 about the suspect:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...AF0C86A732027CD286257574004FB937?OpenDocument
b]Lyme disease diagnosis can be difficult
By Greg Jonsson
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
03/09/2009

STORY PUBLISHED, 8/6/2008[/b]

Terry Joe Sedlacek's parents worried that he was getting into drugs or alcohol when he started acting strangely during his junior year at Edwardsville High School.

He dropped out of the activities that used to interest him. He seemed confused. He missed class, and one time when the school called his mother, Ruth Abernathy, to say he hadn't shown up, she found him home on the couch, having forgotten he was supposed to be somewhere else.

"I said, 'What are you doing here? You're supposed to be at school,'" his mother remembers of the day in 1999. "And he said, 'Oh.'"

They tried to check him into rehab, but tests showed caffeine was the strongest thing in his system. Doctors diagnosed him as mentally ill and for years he took medicine - up to 18 pills a day at one point. But the drugs that worked for others seemed to do little for him. His physical condition deteriorated, too, and in 2003 he was in the hospital, so sick he was given last rites.

Finally a desperate battery of tests for everything from West Nile to SARS pinpointed two tick-borne diseases: Lyme disease and ehrlichiosis.

"I said 'You've got to be kidding me,'" Abernathy said. "I never knew a tick could do this."

Lyme disease can be tough to pin down, with a range of symptoms that can be mistaken for those of other health problems. Those infected may think they've just got the flu and might skip seeing a doctor, and doctors in areas where Lyme disease is not common could miss the correct diagnosis.

"The Lyme disease bacterium can infect several parts of the body, producing different symptoms at different times," the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention notes on its website. "Not all patients with Lyme disease will have all symptoms, and many of the symptoms can occur with other diseases as well."

Abernathy said she understands the disease can be difficult to diagnose, especially if it is not caught early. She wants the public and doctors to be better educated about tick-borne disease, but said she doesn't spend much time blaming doctors who didn't diagnose her son earlier.

"They didn't know, I didn't know," she said. "I just want my son back."

THE BITE

No one really knows when or where Sedlacek got Lyme disease. He was an avid hunter and outdoorsman who loved to spend time on a family member's property in Calhoun County, and his mother believes he probably encountered an infected tick there in 1998 or 1999.

In Illinois, the deer ticks that can carry Lyme disease have been spreading in recent years. Once contained to the northwestern part of the state, they are now found along the Illinois River and even in more urban areas, such as Cook County, according to Linn Haramis, an entomologist with the Illinois Department of Health. They've also been identified in Monroe County.

Deer ticks don't find Missouri as hospitable, according to Karen Yates, with the Missouri Department of Health and Senior Services. But in both states, other ticks carry other diseases, such as ehrlichiosis, Rocky Mountain spotted fever and tularemia.

For Sedlacek, who was put in a medically induced coma and given intravenous antibiotics to combat the Lyme disease and ehrlichiosis, the diagnosis came late. For a few months he did very well.

"We had our son back," Abernathy said.

But Sedlacek's rebound didn't last for long. After he got out of the hospital, oral antibiotics didn't seem to work as well. His family sought out experts and tried alternative treatments, with mixed success.

These days, Sedlacek, now 26 and living in Troy, Ill., with Abernathy, has difficulty speaking. He's got lesions on his brain. He's taking several drugs, including anti-seizure medication.

"He takes enough medicine at night to knock a cow out, but he only sleeps two or three hours a night," Abernathy said.

REBOUNDING

One Saturday last month, friends, family and other volunteers in "Ticks Suck" T-shirts held a fundraiser for Sedlacek at Arlington Greens Golf Course near Granite City.

"I feel sorry for people who get this," Sedlacek struggled to say at the fundraiser. "If they don't have the money or the family to do things ..."

The funds raised are helping pay for treatment in Florida in a hyperbaric chamber that has helped others with his symptoms. He's now about halfway through the month of treatments, and his mother said in an e-mail that he is doing well and doctors have been able to reduce some of his medications.

"His speech was much improved after the first week of treatments as well as his sleep pattern," she wrote. "To have him able to join in on some conversations is a huge reward for us so far."

Abernathy wants others to become more aware of tick-borne disease and take precautions.

"It doesn't happen with every tick bite, but it's good to be cautious," she said. "Lyme disease, ehrlichiosis, are out there."

Experts recommend taking preventive measures when entering areas where ticks may be present. But they also say people shouldn't overreact.

"We don't want people thinking they can't go outdoors," said Yates, who coordinates Missouri's vector-borne disease program. "Avoid tick habitat if you can, but don't let that keep you indoors. Sitting on the couch is not a good health practice."

The "vast majority" of people who contract Lyme disease get a bull's-eye rash around the bite, Yates said. If caught at that stage, Lyme disease can usually be treated successfully with a round of antibiotics.

That's why knowledge about the disease is so important, Abernathy said.

"We went through it for nine years," she said, "and it can be cured in 30 days."

Sometimes bad things just happen. No law could have prevented this. Arming everyone in the congregation when they came through the door wouldn't have prevented this. Sometimes things just happen.
 
Two things jump out at me over this.

One is that the gunman must have been using a Rossi revolver because it jammed after the first shot.

The second is that with all the church shootings lately, why do some people still think that carrying a weapon in a church is something to be banned?
 
One is that the gunman must have been using a Rossi revolver because it jammed after the first shot.
Not so much:
Winters, 45, was shot about 8:30 a.m. by a man who walked down the aisle during the service, exchanged words with Winters and fired his .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun four times before it jammed, police said
 
It's not all about carrying in churches.

The second is that with all the church shootings lately, why do some people still think that carrying a weapon in a church is something to be banned?

Because even with "all the church shootings lately" nothing has been proven that carrying in church would have prevented them. Because the shooting yesterday, and some others like it, verify that even an armed congregation would be likely to be caught up in "I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I'M SEEING, IS THIS REAL?" Long enough to NOT prevent the murder.

The attack stunned about 150 church members attending the early service. "Some thought it was some type of skit or program at the time," Trent said.

Police will review video and audio tapes made of the service, Trent said.

Church member Linda Cunningham said she was sitting in the back of the church when the shooter walked up the center aisle.

Winters' wife, Cindy Lee, and their daughters, Alysia Grace, 14, and Cassidy Hope, 12, were in the church but not in the sanctuary when the shooting occurred, church members said. The couple were married in 1987.

Some churchgoers initially believed the shooting was part of a dramatic sketch — something that is common during Winters' services.

After the first shot was fired, Cunningham said, "All you could see was confetti."

Andy and Kris Nothnagel, of nearby Glen Carbon, were sitting about five rows from the pastor when the gunman opened fire.

They, too, said they thought it was part of a play.

"We didn't know if it was real," Andy Nothnagel said.

The couple, who have belonged to the church for about 12 years, said they had never seen the gunman before.

"He didn't look scary," Kris Nothnagel said. "He could have blended in with anybody."


And because there is very little if any definitive evidence proving that guns among the congregants would change the prevailing mentality in churches:


Security experts say church shootings are particularly shocking because worship sanctuaries are so often thought of as a respite from the world's evils, where people come together for the sole purpose of praise and love.

Yet that very notion, say safety experts, leaves them more susceptible to danger.

"The biggest thing churches need to do is get over the 'it can't happen here' mentality," says Jeffery Hawkins, who has worked in law enforcement and security for 30 years and last year started the Christian Security Network. "It's the No. 1 stumbling block of churches."

Notice he didn't say "The biggest thing churches need to do is start having people carry in church.

I'm not advocating for or against CC in church. I am just pointing out that no amount of carrying will change the prevailing disbelief (ironic?) or "it can't happen here" mentality that exists in churches and helps perpetuate this.

Rather, permitting CC in churches needs to be a part of an overall STRATEGY that STARTS with churches understanding their vulnerability, the statistical probability that they are likely to be the scene of a shooting, and responding accordingly, with congregation-wide conversations about avoidance, de-escalation, security, concealed carry, etc.
 
People walk into a Church and they relax. REALLY relax. As if.. they pass through from the dangerous world outside the doors into a safe place where nothing bad will ever happen to them.

It's time assessments are made and acted on because it will happen again in the future.

Keep in mind in a Church, you are going to have people who are frail, have heart issues and other problems. There are going to create problems anyway when someone somewhere decides to commit this act.

They can start with metal detectors and wanding at the door entrance. That will provide reassurance to everyone and filter out the ones who wish ill upon the church.

If you consider how long people gather prior to a service to trade news, business and other happenings, the screening will not cut too deeply into the time of the day prior to the service.
 
This killing, while tragic and perhaps preventable but for the Illinois freedom-suppression laws, is way out there on the statistical outlier fringe.

If the benefit of society at large is to be considered, what laws we have should be optimized to deal with this elephant in the room, the primary challenge to citizen safety:

http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/005/06-02.htm

Those unafraid of big words (and a little mathematics is optional) would do well to check out:

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/

The latter is the work of a Sociology professor, who is anonymous due to our culture of "academic freedom" :banghead: that would at the very least claim his career.
 
I think it's jumping to all kinds of wrong conclusions to be making statements about how CCW would have saved the day. Maybe it would have, and maybe it wouldn't have, but as more information comes out, I don't think a reasonable person could conclude that armed congregation members could have prevented this. It's a tragedy and it's starting to like nothing short of airport type security members would have prevented it.


Why conceal carry at all then? Who knows if we will ever stop any attack? Who knows if I won't slip on a banana peel and break my neck tonight. WHo knows I may drop my gun and it goes off and kills me. Would have been better I was never a gun owner.

Now, my personal opinions, is gun's save lives, because good responsible, sober-minded shooters use them to protect against deranged, diseased or any other kind of bad person who decides to circumvent our laws, that have proven to fail again and again.

One thing, many of you are missing here, and fail to see is:
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE GUYS GUN DID NOT JAM????

All of you who say Conceal carry would have not made a difference you're dang wrong. Just imagine if after killing the pastor he started pointing his gun at the sheep of the church. Now, I don't know about you, but if he is pointing that thing at me after blowing away my pastor, I don't want to go calling out to heaven and praying that my state legislator will save me through better gun control laws. No, I want to grab my conceal carry weapon and take him down before he kills more innocent people, women children, babies! And also, I don't want to have to rely on the 75 year old half blind church deacon to use his gun to save me either! Did anyone realize that the people of the church are the ones who took this man down? Not the police, not armed security personnel.. Unarmed people against an armed man.

Bottom line.. Illinois failed! LEgalize conceal carry for citizens of Illinois. And FOID is crap.
 
because good responsible, sober-minded shooters use them to protect against deranged, diseased or any other kind of bad person who decides to circumvent our laws, that have proven to fail again and again.

So how do you determine the "good" from the "bad"?
 
how do you know the pastor was innocent? What if he had just gotton done molesting the shooters child? Its ok to point your gun at him right as he is no longer innocent?
 
All of you who say Conceal carry would have not made a difference you're dang wrong.

You might want to point out that they are "dang wrong" ONLY if they engage in your 'what if' scenario.

WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE GUYS GUN DID NOT JAM????

You're asking people to assume facts NOT evidenced by the story, and then use those to make a determination about what DID happen in the story. That's backwards. Relying on fantasy to promote the value of CC isn't helping win the argument.

Try relying on the facts we have and make a determination about THEM based on THEM.
 
Pastor Shot to Death.. Illinois Gun Control Fails

This isn't merely an IL issue, this is a church issue as well. Many of the churches around here have strict "no guns" policies... and unlike private businesses, churches in UT are protected by State law.

Example... private business has no guns policy... patron CC'er can ignore it without legal repercussion.
Churches on the other hand can have you arrested for carrying.

So, I can see why this makes churches a perfect place for psycho killers to attack. This is one of the reasons why I don't go to church. I figure that God will forgive me... I am sure He doesn't agree with the "no self defense" policies either. After all, if self defense was wrong, I'm sure He would have mentioned it in a Commandment or something.

how do you know the pastor was innocent? What if he had just gotton done molesting the shooters child?
It is not an improbable theory... I have had the same thoughts. If that is the case, the guy should plea temporary insanity. A sympathetic jury will likely understand.
 
how do you know the pastor was innocent? What if he had just gotton done molesting the shooters child?

Taking the law into your own hands has risks. He would be better then not shooting him in front of everyone in the church. How am I to know the guy after he shoots the pastor won't start shooting my children? Sorry, I won't take that risk.
 
Having adopted a child that was sexually abused, for years, I don't know if there is a worse crime. I am not a violant person, but if the SOB ever gets out of jail, Chance are very good I will kill him with my bare hands.
 
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