I started this thread because I know a girl that wants a handgun for home defense. I’m not sure if she had a gun she would practice enough to be a very good shot and she doesn’t handle recoil very well. So I wondered about a 38 Special for her (or even something smaller) with instructions that if she ever used it and her attacker kept coming as a last resort put it to the attackers head and pull the trigger. But I wondered if a 38 Special would get the job done. I hear so much about shot placement in regards to the body but nothing about head shots, so my question.
Penetrating a skull (head) ?
- Thread starter Bullet
- Start date
- Status
I started this thread because I know a girl that wants a handgun for home defense. I’m not sure if she had a gun she would practice enough to be a very good shot and she doesn’t handle recoil very well. So I wondered about a 38 Special for her (or even something smaller) with instructions that if she ever used it and her attacker kept coming as a last resort put it to the attackers head and pull the trigger. But I wondered if a 38 Special would get the job done. I hear so much about shot placement in regards to the body but nothing about head shots, so my question.
MachIVshooter
Member
Virtually any cartridge from the .22 short on up can penetrate a human skull. However, as others have touched on, the angle of impact (and area) matter very much. There are a lot of dead folks from rimfire rounds to the peanut, and plenty of individuals still walking around after 9mm, .40 and .45 caliber slugs failed to enter. If you watch the trauma shows on Discovery health or read reports of GSW victims, you'll see that rounds glancing off of skulls (particularly the top and forehead) is not all that uncommon. Also, GSW's to the face tend to have very erratic bullet paths, often doing such things as entering the chin and exiting around the ear after traveling along the lower jaw bone.
Of course, as a defensive situation is concerned, killing the attacker is not the object; stopping them is. Whether they survive is really a secondary concern. A wound that incapacitates them immediately but does not kill them is fine. OTOH, a shot that they die from hours later isn't any comfort to the victim if the BG was able to follow through with their attack, despite the injury.
On that note, being shot does tend to decisively end conflicts most of the time.
Of course, as a defensive situation is concerned, killing the attacker is not the object; stopping them is. Whether they survive is really a secondary concern. A wound that incapacitates them immediately but does not kill them is fine. OTOH, a shot that they die from hours later isn't any comfort to the victim if the BG was able to follow through with their attack, despite the injury.
On that note, being shot does tend to decisively end conflicts most of the time.
hemiram
Member
Well, getting back to the glance off skull thing..
When I worked security in a hotel, we had a family staying with us. There were the two elderly parents, and their two thirty something children. The daughter was fine, but the son was a mental patient, who decided to stop taking his pills a few days before they left on their trip.
About 8PM on the third night they were there, the son produced a very nasty looking old Model 28 that had seen better days, and held his parents and sister at gunpoint, screaming he was going to kill them for being "Satan's minions", and "attacking my mind". We found out about it when the front desk called to ask if they were going to be checking out. He got a tirade from the son instead, we called the police. When the first two cops arrived, they called him and he fired off a round. It went out the window, and took a chunk off the building next door, causing pedestrians to run for cover.
A negotiator and the SWAT team showed up, along with a lot more police. They tried to talk to him, but he got more and more agitated. One of the SWAT team members went up to the room to see if there was any way to do anything, and surprisingly, the door was wide open. After he was shot at, the command officers talked a while and one of the strange looking police dogs they had then was brought in. He was getting old, and was a very nasty piece of work in general. Looked like a big headed black Lab with a smaller than normal body. Since he was going to be "retired" soon, they decided to let him go in, and when the son was being occupied, rush in and take him down. I was on the street keeping people from walking around the corner and possibly getting hit. They called the son and told him if he didn't come down, the dog was coming up. I thought to myself "And what if he closes the door?"
But they didn't think of that.
Four policemen in full body armor went up the stairs, got set and they let the dog loose. He ran into the room, and we hear the gun go off, BOOM, and then someone started screaming. A lot. Suddenly the parents and the sister appear, shaken up but unhurt. An ambulance pulls up, and the son is brought down, totally covered in blood. He's strapped down and fighting pretty good, but they just ignored his ravings, and loaded him up and they took him away.
A few minutes later, the dog appears, quite pleased with himself. He has a hole right between his eyes, and lots of powder burns on his eyes. The bullet went right up the crevice most dogs have between their eyes and under the skin and out the back of his head and into the wall. Needless to say, the dog got very angry because of being shot, and proceeded to munch the son pretty badly before the SWAT guys came in and rescued him. Since they were less than 10 feet away, I guess they wanted to make sure he was busy before they went in.
When he got to the hospital, the doctors took xrays after knocking him out and almost all his injuries were to his hands and groin. They took X-rays and were looking at them puzzled. The cop there watching the son asked them why were they so confused. The one doctor says, "We can't see any pellets!"
The cop laughs and says, "He wasn't shotgunned, a dog did that to him after he shot it!" The doctors shook their heads in amazement.
A couple of days later, I look and see the family, son included, getting into a cab to go the airport. The son was moving very carefully, but not bad considering the damage the dog did to him. They ended up paying us for damge to the window and door, and the DA eventually dropped the charges.
The dog died of cancer about a year later. They said he was a much nicer dog after the shooting than he was previously.
When I worked security in a hotel, we had a family staying with us. There were the two elderly parents, and their two thirty something children. The daughter was fine, but the son was a mental patient, who decided to stop taking his pills a few days before they left on their trip.
About 8PM on the third night they were there, the son produced a very nasty looking old Model 28 that had seen better days, and held his parents and sister at gunpoint, screaming he was going to kill them for being "Satan's minions", and "attacking my mind". We found out about it when the front desk called to ask if they were going to be checking out. He got a tirade from the son instead, we called the police. When the first two cops arrived, they called him and he fired off a round. It went out the window, and took a chunk off the building next door, causing pedestrians to run for cover.
A negotiator and the SWAT team showed up, along with a lot more police. They tried to talk to him, but he got more and more agitated. One of the SWAT team members went up to the room to see if there was any way to do anything, and surprisingly, the door was wide open. After he was shot at, the command officers talked a while and one of the strange looking police dogs they had then was brought in. He was getting old, and was a very nasty piece of work in general. Looked like a big headed black Lab with a smaller than normal body. Since he was going to be "retired" soon, they decided to let him go in, and when the son was being occupied, rush in and take him down. I was on the street keeping people from walking around the corner and possibly getting hit. They called the son and told him if he didn't come down, the dog was coming up. I thought to myself "And what if he closes the door?"
But they didn't think of that.
Four policemen in full body armor went up the stairs, got set and they let the dog loose. He ran into the room, and we hear the gun go off, BOOM, and then someone started screaming. A lot. Suddenly the parents and the sister appear, shaken up but unhurt. An ambulance pulls up, and the son is brought down, totally covered in blood. He's strapped down and fighting pretty good, but they just ignored his ravings, and loaded him up and they took him away.
A few minutes later, the dog appears, quite pleased with himself. He has a hole right between his eyes, and lots of powder burns on his eyes. The bullet went right up the crevice most dogs have between their eyes and under the skin and out the back of his head and into the wall. Needless to say, the dog got very angry because of being shot, and proceeded to munch the son pretty badly before the SWAT guys came in and rescued him. Since they were less than 10 feet away, I guess they wanted to make sure he was busy before they went in.
When he got to the hospital, the doctors took xrays after knocking him out and almost all his injuries were to his hands and groin. They took X-rays and were looking at them puzzled. The cop there watching the son asked them why were they so confused. The one doctor says, "We can't see any pellets!"
The cop laughs and says, "He wasn't shotgunned, a dog did that to him after he shot it!" The doctors shook their heads in amazement.
A couple of days later, I look and see the family, son included, getting into a cab to go the airport. The son was moving very carefully, but not bad considering the damage the dog did to him. They ended up paying us for damge to the window and door, and the DA eventually dropped the charges.
The dog died of cancer about a year later. They said he was a much nicer dog after the shooting than he was previously.
The Annoyed Man
Member
Bullet, I gotta say man, that is a freaky question.
I actually had an answer all typed up, but I'm not gonna post it.
I actually had an answer all typed up, but I'm not gonna post it.
Slugless
Member
+1 Annoyed Man.
Yet another thread with bad karma.
(Hey, the link to the annoyed man website doesn't load)
Yet another thread with bad karma.
(Hey, the link to the annoyed man website doesn't load)
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Given that the request was one for the smallest caliber, I didn't think this was suicide related at all. Then Bullet made his second post and things got weirder.
Bullet, tell your female friend to get real profession gun help. Your advice is a bit hokey in that it is very hard for an unskilled shooter to hit a moving head-sized target, especially with a revolver. She is going to have enough problems hitting a human-torso sized target. As for not hearing much about head shots, have you used the search function? This isn't an unusual topic at all. I am surprised the usual ubiquitous Mossad example response hasn't been posted...on how they use .22 lr. for head shots and have done quite with with a .22 lr. Of course, the problem there is that they aren't doing self defense, but assassination. It is much easier to hit a slow moving or stationary small target than one that is attached to a body trying to kill you.
Black Knight
Member
There seems to be two thoughts here. First is the .38 Special good enough for home defense and the second will the .38 Special penetrate the human skull. I am a little leary of this but I'll bite. First the .38 Special is fine for home defense. I carried a .357 Magnum loaded with 125 Gr. SJHP .38 Special +P as a private security officer for many years and never felt under gunned. It is a very fine round with light recoil. In the 1990's it was the load that the Federal Protective Service (General Services Administration Police) required us to carry when working. Second, one of my uncles killed himself with his son's former off duty gun (a snub nosed .38 Special). This happened years after my cousin left the Police Department he worked for. So can the .38 Special penetrate the human skull? In a word, yes. Be smart and get training first.
This type of question gives the impression that you or someone else want to kill yourself or someone else (execution style). For home defense you shoot for the center mass of the target offered and only with the intent to stop your attacker from harming you or a loved one.
This type of question gives the impression that you or someone else want to kill yourself or someone else (execution style). For home defense you shoot for the center mass of the target offered and only with the intent to stop your attacker from harming you or a loved one.
Silvanus
Member
A few month ago a man got shot in the head by a police officer. They carry S&W 686s with some sort of plastic tipped, hollow point .38specials here. (I think they are the same rounds the German police carries. http://www.ruag-ammotec.ch/ammotec/en/products_pistol_ammunition/9mm_action.htm?navid=42) It was a very strange story...I think it was an accident or something, I can't remember the facts right now. But the man who got shot still lives.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
I am hard pressed to see how this thread furthers THR's mission.
I can easily imagine how it would work against it though, and therefore, we're done.
I can easily imagine how it would work against it though, and therefore, we're done.
- Status
