People who won't listen (wrong ammo for the rifle, dude!)

[Bwana John]

When my buddy shot a 270 thru a 7mm Mag, I became a complete beliver in Ruger #1s. The only thing we noticed was the total case head seperation when he tryed to extract the 270. No gas back, and bullet grouped with the 7mm's.
I had warned him earlyer in the day that we had different calibers on the bench, and dont put the wrong one in, his response was "why would I do a dumb a$$ thing like that?"

 

[GigaBuist]

Beren, good job.

I'll see if I can even get 7.62x39mm to stay in my CETME mag tonight. I'm thinking they'd fall right out.

 

[Logistics]

eh

I think the guy will be fine albeit a very dumb thing to do and not listen to others.

I work part time for a decent sized well stocked gunshop in the suburbs and we've had people do some amazing things along these lines. For instance, a customer had the nerve to ask us if we could fix his Ruger m/77 chambered in .270. He was dumb enough to admit to firing 6 rounds of .308 through it and then only after that the only reason he stopped was because the bolt "got clunky" and would not "move properly"! This happened about a year ago and I still get a chuckle. Yes the customer was fine as well as the gun holding together.....

as the other poster put it........stupid is as stupid does....

~L

 

[Fred Fuller]

Ah, the dreaded "my buddy said/my sergeant said" syndrome no doubt. Way back a couple of weeks ago when I was getting paid to counsel GIs I used to hear that 'my buddy said' line all the time. "My buddy" hardly ever got anything right and "my sergeant" wasn't much better. Assuming ANYONE in the Army or out knows anything about firearms is... well, you know ASS-U-ME, right?

Beren, you did good trying to warn him, whoever that dipstick clerk was needs to be given walking papers forthwith, and going the extra mile to call the store was admirable. Good on yer,

lpl/nc (still happy to have put Fort Bragg in the rearview mirror for the last time at COB on 30 Sept 2004 after 22 years four months and 21 days)

 

[45R]

Beren-
Karma points for you brother, you did the right thing!

 

[Old Fud]

.308 vs 7.62X51

As long as we're discussing this, can we clear up a question?

I've been told many places ("my buddy at the gun rag said") that these two rounds are interchangeable.

But there is an article someplace that says they are not! That there is a difference in neck/shoulder dimensions so that one round can fit and "jump the gap" while the other may not close properly and cause problems.

Which is the truth?
And if they are not the same, which is the safer one to have?

 

[Don Gwinn]

As I understand it, they're near enough to identical that you should have no problems, BUT the NATO loadings (7.62x51) tend to be a little hotter and maybe a little looser in the chamber. If you err, err on the side of the commercial loadings as those will be a little wimpy at worst.

The only firearm I've ever heard of having real problems with the 7.62x51 was the Spanish FR-8.

However, what I know about rifles would fill a thimble. You might want to check this in the Rifle Country.

 

[LoneStranger]

As bad as the young, female, acquaintance, who went with her gangbanger boytoy to the gunshow.

Boytoy purchased a .380 pistol, Grendel, then purchased a brick of .22 shorts to use in it.

I had to explain the small problem that he was having while trying to use said ammo in said pistol.

Needless to say, the pistol went by-by and I wound up with a brick of .22 shorts.

Problem? Now I need something that uses .22 shorts!

 

[entropy]

Delmar, re using .311 diameter bullets in a .308 dia. bore(out of the right case, of course) I do it every time I fire my Finnish M91, it mikes out at .3086, and I usually shoot Czech light ball 7.62x54R (silvertip), which mikes out at @.311, give or take. No problems whatsoever, and this Mosin was made in 1899! I do admit I don't do the bulk of my Mosin shooting with that rifle, but over the years, and how many wars, all shooting military ammo, it's held up nicely, albeit kinda dark in the bore.
You are correct Don, and I'll add that the 7.62 NATO spec ammo has thicker case walls, and crimped and sealed primers. The chamber specs are looser than SAAMI specs, to allow for dirty and/or dinged up ammo to be fired in automatic weapons.
CETME's usually aren't too fussy about ammo, once headspaced properly. Speaking of, did you ever get yours working right, Justin? I'll bet it just needs (or needed ) the rollers changed to adjust the headspace. A funny thing about Santa Barbra 7.62 NATO, which is designed for CETME's; When my boss bought a Saiga .308, we both picked up every brand of milsurp ammo we could find, to see which shot the best for the price. The Santa Barbra wouldn't cycle the Saiga at all. Everything else shot great out of it, and we agreed Aussie and Israeli were the most accurate. BTW, fun gun! Now that the AWB is dead, Izmash should consider making them with the pistol grip to begin with, and make a 20 rd. mag.

2nd Amendment, commercial ammo has a distinct possibility of case separation caused by the flutes in the chamber. The thicker NATO brass is designed to be part of the functioning of the rifle, whereas when the thinner commercial brass is fired, it sometimes expands into the flutes enough to cause separation. It doesn't happen all the time, nor even a lot, but it does happen, and it's more likely to happen with cases that have been reloaded a few times, being stretched thinner. A broken shell extractor is cheap insurance.

Good on ya, Beren!

 

[SMLE]

Here is a good essay on the differences and similarities between 7.62 & .308

.308 Win. VS 7.62x51 NATO

 

[GigaBuist]

Well.. let's hope he doesn't try it! My CETME mag will hold 7.62x39mm ammo just fine. It looks a little weird, and it's obviously short for the magazine... but the feed lips hold them in there.

entropy, nope I never did get my CETME fixed. I've been burning 50-65 hour work weeks for I don't know how long. Heck I've got an 870 sitting on my living room floor for a week (single man, heh) all taken apart as I reassemble it with a folding stock.

Where the heck would I order the parts for this CETME? Only "parts kit" I've seen was Title II.

 

[spacemanspiff]

in this litigious world we live in, i'd wager a shiny nickel that if that kid got injured because of shooting the 7.62x39 through the wrong gun, he'd sue the store. and in all likelihood, a jury would award the injured darwin candidate a settlement.

little thing called 'products liability'. i'm no expert though.

 

[entropy]

Justin, check on Perro del Diablo's Cetme Pages Forum, there is a lot of excellent info on the CETME, and a WTB/WTS forum there, too. You'll find the answers and sources for any parts you need there. Here's the link:

http://www.cetmerifles.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18&sid=59b7a028827ce13c5922f9e5932537be

Gunboards.com has a CETME forum, too. Lot of the same guys, but enough different stuff to merit a looksee.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=47

If you can't find out what you need to get from these two forums, I'll take that POS off your hands for a hundred bucks. Seriously, I hope you get it up and running, they are a fun rifle to shoot!

 

[Andrew Rothman]

First, FWIW, Beren did the right thing. But...

Well i don't want to sound too cynical, but if he's that stupid, I say let it blow up in his face.

You cant be serious. You think he should get hurt as a reward for his ignorance? You must know everything.

No, but if he gets hurt as a reward for his ignorance and the arrogance ignoring advice from a knowledgable person just trying to save his sorry behind, well, that's just instant Karma.

 

[hillbilly]

Matt Payne is absolutely right.

If a person makes a choice out of willful ignorance after having been informed of his ignorance, then that person deserves whatever he gets.

I think perhaps some folks are confusing taking the "high road" with being a nanny, in this case.

If someone tells you to not pet that tiger in the cage, and you walk up and pet the tiger anyway, and it rips your arm off, then you absolutely deserve what happened to you.

FPrice went way above and beyond what was required in this case by calling the store manager.

But there was no requirement that he do so. His telling this idiot that he had the wrong ammo for the rifle was more than enough in this case.

Again, this idiot at the store willfully bought the wrong ammo after having been told that it was the wrong ammo.

That's not just ignorance, that's stupidity.

The difference is that ignorance can be fixed, while stupidity can't.

hillbilly

 

[Sam Adams]

Stevekl and Beren

Stevekl:

Well i don't want to sound too cynical, but if he's that stupid, I say let it blow up in his face. Seriously, how can you even PURCHASE a CETME and not know what ammo it takes?

I have rarely seen so callous an attitude toward a fellow human being. He might be stupid, but in my mind and heart that is not a crime worthy of having a gun blow up in your face, resulting in possible blindness, brain damage or death. We are either born stupid, average or above average, and that has nothing to do with personal choice...and maybe he wasn't stupid, maybe he was simply inexperienced. Either way, I'd have done what Beren did and call back.

By the way, how do you know what the ultimate effect of not calling back would have been? None of us can, of course, but perhaps his son will save yours on a battlefield or in the streets someday? Perhaps his great, great grandchild will discover a cure for some lethal disease? Etc., etc. - none of which would be possible if he died, or even became injured badly enough to not be able to attract a mother for his kids. Your attitude is incredibly self-centered, showing a total lack of caring about a fellow human being, a fellow American and a fellow gun owner. Way to go!

Beren: thank you for doing the right thing. You scored some points upstairs by doing that, and proved yourself to be a thoroughly decent person to those of us on THR who understand that the world doesn't revolve around ourselves.

 

[molonlabe]

You know Sam Adams, You’re absolutely right. I am part of the gun culture and as such I have personal knowledge of firearms. Other people don’t know the difference between a 45 auto and a machine gun anymore than my wife knows how the engine works under the hood of our car. Or that she needs to check the oil because running out can destroy the engine. Yes people have to be told that. Is up to us as part of the gun culture to educate people where we can unless we want to keep this a secret society in which case society will stamp us all out.

 

[pdt203]

Commercial .308 will fire in a CETME, but the chances are higher that when the brass is extracted it will rip the head off leaving the rest of the casing in the chamber. This will not happen on every round of commercial fired, but that chance is increased.

Johnny in Huntsville

 

[carpettbaggerr]

He might be stupid, but in my mind and heart that is not a crime worthy of having a gun blow up in your face, resulting in possible blindness, brain damage or death.

Well, actually, it is. The world's a tough place, and stupidity often carries the death penalty.

I would have tried to explain further in the store -- I'm guessing the CETME's marked 7.62x51. But if the guy was a real jerk when he said "Yeah it is, it's 7.62mm." I'd let him learn the hard way. 7.62x39 in a CETME probably wouldn't hurt anything but the gun.

 

[Archie]

Shouldn't be a 'major' problem...

In the first place, the widest part (the rim) of a 7.62x39 round is .447" across, and a 7.62x51 chamber is cut to allow a casing with a diameter of .473" to fit. The extractor on a CETME is going to be about .027" too big.

So the round is more than likely going to slide into the chamber far enough to where the firing pin isn't going to hit the primer. Possibly, the bullet will wedge into the end of the chamber or leade and won't come out without a cleaning rod or something. If that happens two or three times, the shooter is going to take the ammo back to the store and complain that it doesn't work. Or, he might take the gun back to where he bought it and complain the gun doesn't work. Whereupon, he will be told the ammo is the wrong ammo, so he'll gripe about that.

If, somehow, the cartridge manages to hold in the extractor, and the firing pin actually fires the round, consider this:
The chamber for a 7.62x51 is about 2 inches long. A 7.62x39 is about 1.5 inches long. So there will be about a half inch of gap between the end of the case and the entry to the bore. Also, the neck of the case will be completely unsupported. When the round fires, the casing is going to blow out to the chamber walls, which will use up a good portion of the power of the charge. Also, there is a good possiblity that the charge will blow around the bullet and down the bore prior to the bullet getting all the way into the bore and sealing it.
And... 7.62x39 has an industry standard pressure of 50,000 CUP, and the 7.62x51 goes at 52,000 CUP. So the Russian is underpressured before the poor chamber fit depletes any pressure.

If it fires, the bullet may stick in the bore.

The second round that may or may not fire may do some damage.

But I have to agree: Some folks just don't get it, and we as shooters have a responsibility to help out the ignorant.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Friends don't let friends vote for anti-gun politicians, either!
Archie

 

[stevekl]

Ok let me back up what I said. I think I said it in the wrong way. What I meant was that given the fact that he IGNORED advice/education from the original poster, I wouldn't care about the rifle blowing up in his face.

I know everyone isn't born with 100% firearm knowledge, that's why you have to learn as you go. But if you're too arogant and utterly numbskulled to ignore someone trying to tell you, "Hey buddy, that won't fit in that rifle...", then go ahead and hurt yourself.

 

[Bigdog]

You did the right thing, trying to make him understand - but sometimes the fool just will not see the light.
Awhile back at the range, I was asked by a guy to cheack out his gun, it wouldn't take the ammo he had bought. He had a SW .38 snubby, and was trying to load his .38 ammo. Yep. it's .38 alright - .38Auto! Oops.
After being told of the difference between this stuff ("Please don't use it! Take it back and get the right ammo!") by myself and two other shooters, he said he'd take it back to the store.
As I was packing abd getting ready to leave - the fool is still trying to cram those loads into his revolver! I shook my head and left. :banghead:

My CETME handles .308 Rem/UMC just fine, though it is more accurate with the CAVIM (Venezuelan) and South African ammo. I bought some Indian (everybody says it's garbage), and my CETME shot it's best groups of all time. I won't say what they were - y'all wouldn't believe me.
I did have a Rem/UMC case separate once - I chalk it up to a dirty chamber, as I had been shooting a lot of the Indian ammo in it.
Commercial .308 has a SAAMI pressure rating greater than any 7.62X51 NATO I've seen.
My Spanish FR8 handles the .308 just fine. The Spanish rifles that are questionable are the small-ring Mauser including the M1916 (Guardia Civil rifles) and the FR7. Large-ring Mausers like the FR8/M43 are converted to .308 and larger all the time - a very common platform for sporters!
The Modelo "C" CETME (our beloved "Chopos") are designed for the 7.62X51 NATO, and will handle the .308 Win. It might be advisable to switch to the stiffer HK recoil spring (a fairly easy mod), but the Chopo is more forgiving of different types of ammo than a gas-operated gun. I love having no pesky gas system to clean, or having to adjust for different loads. A nice easy rifle to strip and clean!

 

[Firethorn]

There's a difference between ignorance and deliberatley ignoring. The guy did think that he had the right ammo. He had 7.62. He was only thinking caliber. The original poster felt that he should of pointed out the difference in case lengths(and such) a little more strongly.

This I agree with. A minute more would of probably made the difference.

 

[BluesBear]

I have been shooting for over 40 years now.
The only time I have ever chambered or fired the wrong ammunition was deliberately for testing purposes. I chalk that up to a combination of intelligence and luck.

However, even after all of my experience, if someone ever tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hey, them's the wrong bullets for that there gun."
I would at least double check just to make sure they were wrong.
(As well as for that slim chance that they might be right.)

Just because I haven't been wrong yet doesn't mean I'm perfect.
It just means the odds are now stacking up against me.


The reason that I did a test a few years ago to see what would happen when you loaded a .44 magnum with .41 magnum ammo was because i was worring about me or someone shooting with me getting the ammo mixed up. This is also the reason that I have color coded the knobs on my speedloaders.


Hopefully the Einstein mentioned in the original post will double check before he attempts live fire. If not, then I have no sympathy for him.