Pit Bull Kills Boy, 12
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joab
Member
They certainly don't behave like birddogs. That's where that old saying comes from
Simmer down only1asterisk. I said that there weren't enough facts (when I read the original article) to determine what happened. The only thing that could be said is that a child died from dog bites and it appeared one or maybe two "pit bull" dogs were involved. The media reporting a pit bull killed a child is like the media saying a man with a dangerous sniper rifle was seen in a suburban neighborhood. I've seen way too many "pit bull" attack stories that turn out to be Labrador crossbreed attack stories. The media doesn't bother to retract that information because everyone knows that Labradors don't attack and kill people, right? (Wrong, of course.)
Now, let me preface what I am about to say with this statement; A dog that bites someone unprovoked has to be put down. A provoked bite is more of gray area. A death involved biting means the dog will be put down, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that, including me, which is the case if you go back and read my original post.
However, I have seen allegedly informed adults allow children around strange dogs when the dogs are eating. You want to stick your hand into a strange dog's food bowl when it's eating? You won't have to do that to too many dogs before you get bit. The same thing goes with taking toys away from a dog, climbing on them, pulling their ears or tail, even sitting in their favorite spot. These are all perfect examples of humans and dogs not speaking the same language.
True story; when I volunteered at an animal shelter we had a family come in with a dog. They were upset that they had to turn the dog over because it had bitten their young child unprovoked. We accepted the dog and placed it in isolation because a bite was involved. There just happened to be a vet on duty that night and we started a routing examination for intake purposes. Almost immediately we noticed the dog was cleaning and worrying at its butt. The vet suspected impacted anal glands and with the dog suitably restrained the vet prepared to express the dog's glands. Imagine our surprise when he removed a blue crayon from the poor dog's rear. We were able to get the rest of the details from animal control when they came to do a follow up on a dog bite report. Seems mom was in the kitchen and dad was elsewhere and both came running to find the kid in the living room with a bitten hand and the dog off in the corner. Nobody saw what happened but the dog would have paid the penalty if they hadn't dropped him off at a no kill shelter. These brain donors showed up the next day to try and get their dog back after talking to animal control, fortunately the shelter had a no return policy once an animal was signed over. The dog was a 25 pound Beagle, who ultimately went to a good home. I'm not saying that's what happened, but you can't say what happened from the initial report.
When I was a kid, the dogs shared our beds. Boston Terriers. Of course, our parents had to lock up the dogs first in order to spank us, otherwise they'd interfere. We were also old enough to know enough to know to leave the dogs alone when they're eating from their bowls, and to recognize warning signals that they wanted to be left alone. We could use them as pillows without problems, etc.
I think that if you have little kids, an older, mellowed out dog is a better match than puppies or even some younger dogs. Bulldogs can be good for this, as they tend to be more laid back, and their short tail isn't conductive to grabbing, and the looser skin makes it difficult for a kid to get so annoying that a dog bites.
I think that if you have little kids, an older, mellowed out dog is a better match than puppies or even some younger dogs. Bulldogs can be good for this, as they tend to be more laid back, and their short tail isn't conductive to grabbing, and the looser skin makes it difficult for a kid to get so annoying that a dog bites.
Of course it's probably not a good idea to leave a kid alone with mean dogs, but you have to kind of wonder what this kid did to set them off. A lot of kids that age are real sadists and get their jollies off torturing animals. May not be the case here, but the details aren't really there.
The Real Hawkeye
member
This is very true. When I was a kid, about 5 or 6, there was a bully in my neighborhood a couple of years older than me who not only used to wait to ambush me on the way to school every morning, but if my dog (a 40 pound mutt) was sleeping on our front lawn, he'd sneak up on her from behind a bush and jump out, arms flailing, and shouting, because he was entertained by a dog so startled. One day my dog literally bit his face off when he did this. It had to be surgically reattached. Threatened with a law suit, my parents gave Suzy away to an undisclosed new owner. At least that's what I was told. Never saw her again, anyway.
svtruth
Member
Dog Control
It is interesting, but gives me a headache, to speculate how dog owners would respond to legislation similar to that which applies to gun ownership.
It is interesting, but gives me a headache, to speculate how dog owners would respond to legislation similar to that which applies to gun ownership.
joab
Member
Personal experience says that they would not like it.
Many place dog ownership on the same level as religious freedom
joab said:
You're absolutely right, joab, I've got a six year old pit that I rescued from the pound as a 2 month old puppy, and he's the only living thing on this planet I trust completely. Pits are generally very people friendly, as dog fighters back in the day did not like being attacked by their own dogs, so dogs that bit people weren't around long.
Rather see the scumbag backyard breeders put to sleep than the dogs, but I love my dogs and hate people...turn a few million bloodthirsty pits loose in the big cities, I'd probably applaud.
S/F
Farnham
Oh how I wish.
When does anyone every than a good guy ever get "held criminally liable" for anything anymore. The bad guys get a slap on the wrist and the good guy who make a little mistake get their lives ruined.
Things are so wrong... :banghead:
Poor kid and mom...we lost a 3 year old locally a few weeks back
Ivy Mike
Member
As a pit owner, I think I'll have to take issue with this one. Dogs are simply dogs. They aren't smart the way people are. You can't expect them to make informed decisions. They simply rely on their instincts to decide what to do. Bully breeds aren't without their little quirks, but in my house (which contains a purebred Beagle, a 6 month old cat and the year old pit mix) The pit is the least aggresive and most friendly. The cat scares me more than the pit...in fact, the pit is the only one who has never bitten me.
I'll take a pit any day of the week. It sucks that some fool kept an obviously people-aggresive animal around. It should never have gotten that far.
I will throw out a piece of controversial info though. From my observance, some pits do tend to show a bit of animal aggresiveness. Mine is OK around dogs she knows, but it very suspicious of new ones and doesn't hesitate to let out a "don't try it" growl when they approach.
Sindawe
Member
I'm not so convinced of that. Back in the 1980s I had a mini-dachshund that I'm convinced made decisions based on the state of his relationship with my sister. Never good, he and she would occasionally have vocal disagreements. She'd yell at the dog, to the dog would yell(well, bark most hysterically) back at my sister. A day or so later, I'd watch him sneak into her room, leave his calling card on her pillow, then sneak back out. His normal gait was quite chipper and upbeat, but when committing his evil dead, he would literally tip-toe about so as not not make any noise from his chain collar and dog tags that hung from it., and slink around the furniture.
I've met a few pits now and again, all raised as pets. To a dog they've been friendly, amiable animals. One of 'em seemed to regard me in particular as his best buddy in the whole world, even more so than he did his owner. Made it quite a challenge to play cards and drink beer with a 56 lb dog trying to sit in your lap like one of those toy yapper thingies.
Yep, gotta watch cats. They have knives in their feet, are lighting fast and turn around in their own skin.
Of course pit bulls don't behave like other breeds. When they attack, they quite frequently terribly maul or kill their victims.
I don't believe there is a greater percentage of pit bulls biting (attacking) people than other breeds-- and I believe many other breeds might indeed bite with greater frequency than the pits-- but when they do attack, they do so with a great ferocity that leaves their victims dead or gravely injured/disfigured.
Many pit bull owners/defenders don't seem to be able to comprehend this, and that makes me think they are just being apologists at all costs.
I personally don't like pits, I think they are poseur dogs. And if one ever muckled onto one of my appendages it would be opened up like a zipper with my serrated Spyderco Police.
I don't believe there is a greater percentage of pit bulls biting (attacking) people than other breeds-- and I believe many other breeds might indeed bite with greater frequency than the pits-- but when they do attack, they do so with a great ferocity that leaves their victims dead or gravely injured/disfigured.
Many pit bull owners/defenders don't seem to be able to comprehend this, and that makes me think they are just being apologists at all costs.
I personally don't like pits, I think they are poseur dogs. And if one ever muckled onto one of my appendages it would be opened up like a zipper with my serrated Spyderco Police.
winstonsmith
Member
I rode the bus past the place where this went on, a few hours after the fact. Saw about 30 cops from marked and unmarked cars. Thought I saw some police brass too, or someone in a dress uniform. Turned out later the fire chief was there, and probably some other high-ups too. They had closed off two blocks of Lincoln Boulevard (borders Golden Gate Park to the south) between 9th and 7th avenues. There were two KPIX 5 (CBS) vans and one Channel 11 (NBC) crew.
This is where it happened:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8th+and+lincoln+san+francisco&spn=0.068481,0.116751&hl=en
This is where it happened:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=8th+and+lincoln+san+francisco&spn=0.068481,0.116751&hl=en
Pilgrim
Member
Ahh, yes. Dachshunds, the classic terror bombers. I've owned a few terror bombers in my day.
Pilgrim
The Real Hawkeye
member
Refresh my memory: Whose the poser? Or was your irony intentional? If intentional, bravo!
Regarding the intelligence of dogs, my Pitbull can count to two. I know this because whenever I clip his toe nails, I only do two at a time. Been clipping two at a time since he was a pup, and after the second one, I always let him go on his way. How do I know he can count to two? Well, after the first clipping he just sits quietly and waits for clipping number two. After the second clipping, he leaps from the bed, exuberantly celebrating the end of this apparently very unpleasant experience. How else can this behavior be explained? I know it's not the expression on my face, or my body language, because on rare occasions, I forget about our two only "deal," and plan to proceed right on to number three, but even then, as soon as I'm done with number two, he's gone. Off celebrating.
The Real Hawkeye
member
First of all, Pitbulls are not the only dogs with powerful jaws and tenacity, but they may well be the most tenacious, and have the most powerful jaws (at least, pound for pound). Since when is being the most of something automatically a reason for shame or guilt? Should we be ashamed of the most effective SWAT team member in our local police department? Not unless he goes crazy and sets himself up on the nearest tower with a sniper rifle. Being the most effective guy with a rifle is not generally, by itself, a reason for shame.
Let's put this into perspective. These two power tools are legal: 1) Dremmal Tools and 2) 3.9 Horse Power Gas Powered Chain Saws. In both cases, it is possible for something to go wrong with the device and cause serious injury or death, but in the case of the chain saw, extreme damage is much more likely if something goes wrong with the device. When they are not defective, however, they are both perfectly safe, if handled correctly, and defects are rare in the extreme, something like one in a million.
The above example is perfectly parallel to our dog situation. Just substitute a Dremmal for a Beagle and a 3.9 HP Chain Saw with a Pitbull. Neither is statistically very likely to go wrong (There are millions of Pitbulls, but only a handful of deaths or serious injuries each year caused by one), but when they do, there will be different results.
So, what's your point? German Shepherds, when they go wrong, will cause significantly more harm than a Yorkshire Terrier. So, what's you point?
Following your logic, the only conclusion we can come to is that eventually we will arrive at the position whereby only Yorkshire Terriers (or comparably incapable breeds) may reasonably be kept as pets.
Your position sounds hauntingly familiar. What is your stance on the legality of .50 caliber rifles?
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A little defensive there Hawkeye?
Like I said earlier, apologize at all costs. And invent acrimony while you are at it.
Where did I say pit bulls should be legislated against? Where?
I'm against legislation of pit bulls almost as much as firearms. I say almost because there is a HUGE difference between the two that apologists such as yourself seem to forget: a dog has a mind of its own, it has its own will. A firearm does not, it is an inanimate object.
The same goes for comparing animals to power tools. The analogy doesn't logically work. Again, dogs have minds of their own, they have their own basic drives, desires, and emotions. If a dog is "smart" enough to count to two, then he shouldn't be compared to a frigging chainsaw. Can your chainsaw count to two?
Dogs don't "go wrong" like a piece of mechanical equipment. The complexities of a sensient nervous system can allow a family pet-- such as a pit bull-- to snap when anyone least expects. Kinda sounds like what happened with this tragic story.
Don't equate the two as if they are on some moral equivalency. But I am not in favor of banning them because that would be pure kneejerk, leftist BS.
My point is that a pit bull typically does far greater damage during an attack than do other breeds. You acknowledged this yourself.
So in some capacity they are a more dangerous breed than most other types of dogs.
Don't try to tell me or anyone else otherwise.
And no, I'm not a poseur. I'm merely stating what I would do if one of them meat-headed, dumb-ass mutts ever lunged after me.
Like I said earlier, apologize at all costs. And invent acrimony while you are at it.
Where did I say pit bulls should be legislated against? Where?
I'm against legislation of pit bulls almost as much as firearms. I say almost because there is a HUGE difference between the two that apologists such as yourself seem to forget: a dog has a mind of its own, it has its own will. A firearm does not, it is an inanimate object.
The same goes for comparing animals to power tools. The analogy doesn't logically work. Again, dogs have minds of their own, they have their own basic drives, desires, and emotions. If a dog is "smart" enough to count to two, then he shouldn't be compared to a frigging chainsaw. Can your chainsaw count to two?
Dogs don't "go wrong" like a piece of mechanical equipment. The complexities of a sensient nervous system can allow a family pet-- such as a pit bull-- to snap when anyone least expects. Kinda sounds like what happened with this tragic story.
Don't equate the two as if they are on some moral equivalency. But I am not in favor of banning them because that would be pure kneejerk, leftist BS.
My point is that a pit bull typically does far greater damage during an attack than do other breeds. You acknowledged this yourself.
So in some capacity they are a more dangerous breed than most other types of dogs.
Don't try to tell me or anyone else otherwise.
And no, I'm not a poseur. I'm merely stating what I would do if one of them meat-headed, dumb-ass mutts ever lunged after me.
jlwatts3
Member
The Real Hawkeye, I respectfully disagree with almost everything you said. Mostly based on my personal experience with pitbulls. But also based on the # of newsreports involving pits.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Why, I aughta!
My point is that no matter what thing you are referring to, there is always one type of that thing which, if something goes wrong, has a greater potential for harm than another, and eventually you are going to arrive at the type of thing that has the most potential, if something goes wrong, to cause damage. I think that the difference in potential harm between a Rottie and a Pit is very slight. Same with a Fila Brasiliaro, or a Bull Mastiff, or an American Bulldog, or a Cano Corso, the list goes on. Just so happens that Pitbulls are more popular than these other breed right now, therefore, naturally, the number of bad ones (even though small as a percentage) is greater (as a raw number) than for those other breeds.
P.S. Glad you are not a banner.
tsc
Member
Pits are amazing dogs, who, when trained correctly, perform the guard dog job flawlessly and correctly.
I've never met a pitbul who wasn't the sweetest, most loving dog who'd rip the throat out of anyone who made agressive gestures towards it's owners.
They're incredibly intelligent, and have this bad media rap thanks to bad owners, and stupid kids who've been taught it's okay to pull on the ears and tails of dogs.
Yes, it's always sad when this happens, but maybe the kids should be better trained, too.
I owned a German Shepherd who was raised by a cat and thought he was one. But one word from me, and he'd jump a 6' wall to get to and defend me. My uncles could't roughhouse with me, as he'd have a lock around their ankles (no puncture).
I learned a long time ago that you don't screw with the dog. Period. No fur pulling, no tugging, no teasing, no prodding. That said, I received worse bites from our Dachshund as a puppy, and none from the Shepherd.
It's a matter of training. Pits happen to be harder to train, and 'in fashion' to train to be agressive and menacing. They happen to have the musculature to be very effective at what they're trained to do.
They don't deserve the bad rap. Crappy owners do.
I've never met a pitbul who wasn't the sweetest, most loving dog who'd rip the throat out of anyone who made agressive gestures towards it's owners.
They're incredibly intelligent, and have this bad media rap thanks to bad owners, and stupid kids who've been taught it's okay to pull on the ears and tails of dogs.
Yes, it's always sad when this happens, but maybe the kids should be better trained, too.
I owned a German Shepherd who was raised by a cat and thought he was one. But one word from me, and he'd jump a 6' wall to get to and defend me. My uncles could't roughhouse with me, as he'd have a lock around their ankles (no puncture).
I learned a long time ago that you don't screw with the dog. Period. No fur pulling, no tugging, no teasing, no prodding. That said, I received worse bites from our Dachshund as a puppy, and none from the Shepherd.
It's a matter of training. Pits happen to be harder to train, and 'in fashion' to train to be agressive and menacing. They happen to have the musculature to be very effective at what they're trained to do.
They don't deserve the bad rap. Crappy owners do.
The Real Hawkeye
member
I think what I said was that Pitbulls are less likely, by nature, to bite than most other breeds. Based on not only my experience, but on the experience of vets who deal with all kinds of dogs, I stand by this. If you exclude all dogs raised as fighters, deliberately encouraged to be aggressive, or raised abusively (By the way, Pitbulls are far more likely to be victims of one of those three conditions than any other breed), I guarantee that you would find that Pitbulls are one of the least likely dogs to bite a human being unprovoked.
I've been a Pitbull owner, and exposed to many other Pitbull owners, since 1987, so my opinion holds more weight than yours. Sorry, it's just a fact. Your expressions of your opinion about the propensities and personality of Pitbulls is about as valuable as Barbara Boxer expressing her opinion about the destructive propensities of AK-47s.
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