Police Silencers in Minn.

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Quantrill

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Silencing the report
http://www.spokesman-recorder.com/News/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=35628&sID=4

By: Karl B. Johnson mailto:[email protected]

12/3/2003

Unknown to most citizens, a new state law lets police use silencers

This past June 30, I happened to be reading the local daily newspaper. As I scanned the articles, I noticed a line that struck me as odd. It read, “Police will be able to use gun silencers for high risk entry.†This was a blurb informing the public of the new laws that had been enacted by the Minnesota Legislature.

In military and police talk, the sound of a firearm discharging is referred to as a report. So I found it odd that the moment that law enforcement should be the most accountable to its citizens — during the use of deadly force and the possibility of taking a human life — could now be obscured by the passage of this law.

The bill was listed as S.F. (Senate File) 945. Republican Senators David L. Knutson, Burnsville; Paul E. Koering, Fort Ripley; Pat Pariseau, Farmington; and Democratic Senator Jim Vickerman of Tracey sponsored the bill.

I was really interested in the story behind this type of law, so I sent each of them an email asking them what reason was given for such a bill. I asked why such a bill was introduced, how the bill would be beneficial to the citizens of Minnesota, and inquired about the shared philosophy of the authors. I also asked each senator how their constituents felt about the law.

I waited for about 10 days and finally followed up the email with letters. I received a phone call from Senator Paul Koering. Koering was quite candid and said that State Representative Dale Walz, from Baxter, Minnesota, who happens to be a law enforcement official, approached him and asked if Koering would sponsor the bill.

The bill was not what is called a “stand alone billâ€. That is, it was attached to another bill and there was never any public debate on it from the full Senate and full House.

I explained to Koering that my intention was not to confront law enforcement, but that law enforcement needed to be held accountable. I asked Koering if he was aware of what the discharge of a firearm was called by military and police personnel. He was silent. I responded, “It is called a report, and in essence, what this bill does is to silence the report of accountability that police officers have to the communities in which they are entrusted to enforce laws.â€

Koering said, “I never thought of that. Listen, I live in Brainerd, I live in the country, and this is not something that I was thinking about. The state representative that gave me the bill said that it was designed to help police officers keep a low profile in case they [law enforcement] need to shoot out a light or something prior to or during a drug bust. Something of that nature.â€

Koering sounded sincere enough. I explained to him that the citizens in Minneapolis, and in particular citizens of North Minneapolis, have had more than a strained relationship with the police department. Given an incident last year wherein an eight-year-old boy was accidently shot in a drug raid, it was rather difficult for me to conceive how this type of bill could have been passed by the Minnesota Legislature.

Koering stated again that this was not a part of his thinking at the time of the bill’s passing. He went on to say that he would bet me dinner that the other authors of the bill would not be calling me. I told him that I would not take him up on the bet because I didn’t want to show up, pay, and watch him eat.

The way in which this bill became law intrigued me, so I looked further into how Minnesota enacts laws. I was, to say the least, alarmed.

I discovered that in order for a bill to become law, a similar bill must go through the Senate and the House. The bills don’t have to be identical, just similar.

I then called State Representatives Neva Walker’s and Keith Ellison’s offices to ask them what they knew about this new law as members of the Minnesota House. Walker was upfront and said, “I didn’t know that there was this type of bill being considered.â€

I left a message with Ellison, and he called me back the next day. Ellison told me that Dale Walz of Baxter, Minnesota, also introduced the bill in the Minnesota House.
I asked Ellison what arguments Walz used to introduce this legislation. Ellison said, “Dale Walz stated that in case there was the need for police to approach a crime scene and there was a need to disable apparatus such as shooting out lights.†This was almost word-for-word what I heard from Koering.

I asked Ellison the same question that I had asked Koering. I informed him that I came from a law enforcement family and that I had a little knowledge of tactical control of high-risk entry, and asked him, “Had it ever occurred to call Excel Energy and ask them to turn off the power instead of giving silencers to police departments?â€

I was amazed that the responses from both Koering and Ellison were almost identical. They had not given that a great deal of thought. Ellison was quite candid. He told me that the bill had come to a committee of which he is a member. He informed me that he had spoken out against the bill and voted against the bill on more than one occasion.

Ellison also told me that the bill was discussed in committee but not in the full House. It was attached to an omnibus funding bill, which he voted against. However, it still received enough votes to pass.

I asked Ellison if he thought that this type of legislation would help to improve the relationship between the community and the police department in his district. He said, “Absolutely not… And in looking back at this bill, it is one ugly bill.â€

Not only is this law an ugly law, but the way it came into being is perfectly legal. The language of the bill is very unclear as to when and what constitutes a “high risk†situation. The decision to use a silencer can be left up to each police chief within each policing district in Minnesota.
With a bill that is this important, the Minnesota legislature did not give it a hearing of the full House and full Senate. It was pushed through both houses by the same individual and was attached to larger funding bills so that it could become law. Without Governor Tim Pawlenty’s signature, this could not have happened.

Citizens were so focused on the Conceal and Carry Law that took center stage in the last legislative session that they didn’t even see this coming. Now the citizens of Minnesota have police departments that have silencers. Of all the people that I spoke with, the email I sent, or the letters that were written, no one has yet to answer how such a law will benefit the citizens of Minnesota.
 
Even more interesting is that the police can already legally have a silencer.

Think about what an ordinary citizen must do to get one:

Fill out an ATF form, pay $200 and get the written permission of the chief of police / sherriff in that jurisdiction.

Doesnt the ATF also make an exception for military and law enforcement to the NFA rules????????

Would the police in any jurisdiction have to ask, or pay the $200 to the ATF??????
 
So concealing the "report" would allow the cops to cover up crimes or abuses? What do these Minn. silencers do, eliminate any trace that the shooting victim ever existed? Moron.
 
Supressors do not totally silence firearms. They help people who might have to shoot without hearing protection (especially indoors) to retain thier hearing.

Police should be able to use suppressors. I should too.

Note this relationship should work the same for everything. Police can use it, it might be good enough for me.
 
Quantrill........what does the average citizen have to worry about the police using silencers or not?........seems to me the only ones worried would be the predators and drug dealers..........of course, we could also have them fire off a shot outside and let you go in first...........
 
In civilized countries (Like here in Finland :D ) you can buy silencers over the counter. No taxes, no waiting periods, prices 35€ and up... I bought one for my CZ kadet and now all you can hear is tsup tsup tsup. (You know, like movies...)
 
Communication problems.

Having a multi-person team doing a raid requires communication.

Having really loud weapons is counter-productive to communicating. That is the real reason for having suppressed weapons for entry teams. Not to mention retaining what's left of one's hearing.

And like Zahc said, a suppressor does not totally cover up a shooting. I have a feeling "Karl B. Johnson" is one of those who would create an issue to sell papers; and is probably anti-police.

And again, like Zahc said, us regular folks should be able to buy suppressors too. Just so as not to bother the neighbors.
 
8balls........that's great that you can.........civilized?.....yeah, we used to be until we opened our borders up to just about anybody.....but, then again we have a lot of Finns here in the U.S. also....
 
I can't understand why the police would need a law or permission ofany kind to use a suppressor. A suppressor on an entry type gun just makes sense.
 
I'm in Minnesota, and this is the first time I've heard of this, but I have no problem with it.

As mentioned before, it seems this guy is just looking for something to complain about. It seems to me that a good deal of any "strained relations" between the residents and police in Minneapolis is manufactured by the "community leaders" that cry racism any time something happens that they don't like.
 
The story fails to mention that suppressors are often used for muzzle flash elimination. This becomes very important if the police have to make an entry into a possibly combustable environment (chemical/oil facility, meth lab, etc.).

8balls -- you lucky bastard :cool: I'd really, really like to own a can (without having to pay the ATF's extortion er ... tax money), but sadly no gun rights/2A group has ever given a thought to eliminating state and federal barriers on ownership.
 
There has been a bit of discussion on suppressors here recently... I think it was the Dept. of Environment that stood in favor of more people getting suppressors since noise pollution is an issue around shooting ranges and in hunting... :D

jem375, our borders towards the EU are now quite open too. It doesn' t seem to matter that much though, I mean, how much illegal immigration occurs from U.S. to Canada? :scrutiny: :p

To the actual topic, noone mentioned the "Hush Puppy" function yet. I'd guess silencing dogs is an issue entering a protected criminals' stronghold as well...
 
A thought to add...

Besides all the valid reasons already mentioned, how about an entry team knowing who's gunfire is who's? If they hear loud gunfire they can pinpoint where it's coming from even as they begin to engage it with counterfire.
 
I can think of multiple, valid reasons for SWAT to get suppressors off the top of my head. I can easily do the same for myself. This would be a non-issue if us peasants were allowed them too. Well, without having to pay a "tax" that skyrockets the price, along with other BATFE hoops. :mad:
 
I sent the reporter an email about the reasons why LEOs use suppressed weapons and asking the purpose of his article and this is his response...
I have received many letters in response to the article. However, I will only
respond to one; your's. My father retired from the Erie County Sheriff's
Department in Buffalo, New York (15 years). My Brother retired from the Newport
News Police Department, (33 years 9 months) and I used to be in law enforcement
for several years. You can stop wondering. I have been there and done that.
Police need to be accountable to communities in which they "serve." So do
legislatures and persons who have an undo influence in trying to push through an
agenda that remains hidden from the public.
There are hearing apparatus, when insereted in the ear canal, that will totally
mute any report from a firearm while enabling the user to hear the breathing of
any persons within a ten foot radius.(I have used them myself. They are
distrubted by Starkey Hearing products in Minnesota). Accuracy and trajectory of
projectiles from discharged weapons wherein silencers are applied become
ineffective due to loss of gases within the chamber design of the silencer.
Why
would efficient law enforcement agencies allow bystanders to remain in the
controlled area during a tactical manuever? Whether or not law enforcement
agencies should have the "tool" or not should be decided upon by the citizens
within the respective states;not by law enforcement. If American democracy is to
survive the citizens must be well informed and those who enact laws must
represent, not misrepresent the interests of the citizens. Whether or not I want
law enforcement to have the "tool" or not is now irrelevant,!
isn't it? This was not about police departments. This was about legislatures.
Thank you much for your comments.

I still don't know what he is griping about. Apparently, he is upset because the state legislature didn't get his approval before passing the law. He also needs a lesson in ballistics and physics.
 
I thought that suppressors were common place in law enforcement. Maybe just not in Minnesota ?

Buying one here is no problem at all. Yeah, I dont' agree with the tax but it hasn't stopped me from buying them.
 
The law change is easily explainable. Prior to the change silencers were forbidden period. The only way LE could have suppressed weapons was to change the law.
 
The law change is easily explainable. Prior to the change silencers were forbidden period. The only way LE could have suppressed weapons was to change the law.

Not exactly correct. The police always had silencers. They just broke the law and failed to enforce it against themselves.

Interesting how the police left the ATF-approved civilians (fingerprinted, background checked, Form 4 holders) out when they cut a special deal for themselves. To be expected, of course, but still disappointing.
 
Hey, they might have to raid a nest of evil mimes.

JimI'vewantedtosilencethepolicesometimesmyself,politicallyMarch

(With apologies to WildAlaska...)
 
Moron??

Buzz,

A government employee/welfare recipient should not call another member a moron. It's against the rules here.
 
I see plenty of justification for the use of suppressors. The problem is this:

The state representative that gave me the bill said that it was designed to help police officers keep a low profile in case they [law enforcement] need to shoot out a light or something prior to or during a drug bust.

My BS meter is pegging off the scale right now. Most of you are right, suppressors "suppress" the sound, not silence so why call it a "silencer?" Hollywood maybe? If it better for hearing and communication, then why did they present they bill this way. Why not state a legitimate reason because we all know they ain't shootin' out any lights and that's not the real reason they want them or why WE would want them.

Anybody with me on this one? This is a prime reason that these types of "tacked-on" bills need to cease. It's total crap. They can't even get the terminolgy/semantics right. Just like with the "non-assault" weapons ban. The .gov needs an enema and PDQ!

GT
 
I'm just waiting for OSHA to get involved.

If shooting indoors is part of someone's job, then surely OSHA would demand he be allowed (if not required) to use a sound suppressor to protect his hearing.

If this became a gov't requirement via OSHA, then individuals might have a chance at arguing for the elimination of anti-suppressor laws (like I face in NY).

Sound suppressors do NOT eliminate noise entirely, merely bring the "report" down from around 180db to a still-freaking-loud 140db (roughly). If doing so saves someone hearing (I say this having lost some in one ear from a single shot) plus increase accuracy and reduce recoil, I'm all for it.
 
CT donath, you are right. OSHA does require the use of "engineering controls" as the best option for noise control. After that, "adminstrative controls" are favored. FInally, and as a last resort, protective equipment. So, using OSHA rules, if you are an employed shooter, then a suppressor is a "must have."

On another note, no "employee" can be subjected to an impact noise exceeding 140 dBA. Some magnums and rifles are in the 160 dBA range. Protection with an NRR of 20 or less would require aditional controls to eliminate the impact noise hazard.

Further, shooting causes hearing loss in many people which is subsequently "blamed" on their employer. Hearing loss is a very large and non-complex issue for shooting. We all need suppressors for safety reasons (hearing conservation) per OSHA guidelines.:D
 
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