indie
Member
I was wondering if there were any statistics or studies done publicly available on guns used in criminal activity?
Popular Criminal/Gang Weapons
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Joe Demko
Member
I can't point you to any official studies, but the area where I work is all et up with crime. I'm friends with the assistant Chief of Police there, and he's told me in conversation that the favorite handgun among the local mopes is the Glock 9mm. The 12 gauge shotgun, whether cut down or not, is also held in very high esteem.
After I found out that the cheap raven I bought was on a list
of a study i went looking for it, I think the info u want is here, its pretty interesting http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf
of a study i went looking for it, I think the info u want is here, its pretty interesting http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
The BATFE's Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Initiative lists popular crime guns, generally sorted by type.
Lot's of .22's, .38's, and 12 guages.
Lot's of .22's, .38's, and 12 guages.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I can tell you what's not, and that is rifles (contrary to media hype):
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
All rifles combined accounted for less than 3% of U.S. homicides annually, less than half as many as fists and feet.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
All rifles combined accounted for less than 3% of U.S. homicides annually, less than half as many as fists and feet.
Archie
Member
Up front...
I have not done a survey, scientific or not. However, I do have some observations.
Criminals cannot legally buy guns, so they buy (sometimes rent) weapons on the underground market. In many areas, this really comes down to dealer's choice; it's a seller's market. The seller deals in whatever he can get.
Guns are expensive. Regular firearms in the legal market are expensive to begin. Dealing in stolen weapons - even though probably cheap in dollars to the illegal dealer - increases risk and therefore increases overhead. Buying a 'hot' gun by a 'hot' buyer cannot be cheaper than an equivlent legal gun. No dealer is going to accept less than the 'going market price'.
This is modified by 'consumer demand'. Criminals are not typically gun collectors, or particularly knowledgeable about firearms. I spoke with one young man of questionable integrity about guns once. He (he claimed) could load and fire a Glock without hurting himself or firing too many negligent discharges. On that basis, he thought he was well trained. I asked him what caliber handgun he had fired and his response was, "A nine." He didn't know anything more than that. Because of this relative ignorance, there are some curious reversals in the demand side of the equation. Glocks are prized because they are well known, widely distributed (so illegal dealers have more chance of getting them) and used by police and are therefore thought to be 'good guns'. For those criminals who have actually fired a gun, a 9x19 Glock doesn't recoil much and has a lot of shots. (I'm not trying to offend Glock enthusiasts here.) A Glock is much more valuable to a criminal than a Registered Magnum with box and papers, for instance. 'Everyone knows' revolvers are outdated and only hold six rounds. Besides, they're loud and kick like a mule.
Criminals are not famed for forethought. To a criminal, a gun is a tool, equipment required for the job and is therefore an 'expense'. 'Expense' should be kept low to maximize return. At the same time, a gun is to intimidate and ensure compliance from the victim. So a shotgun is valued in this regard. Some brighter villians understand they have a better chance of making a hit with a shotgun than a handgun. On the down side, shotguns are harder to hide.
Therefore, criminals buy the commonest, least expensive guns they can find. Back in the pre do-gooder days, criminals would buy the cheapest, smallest guns they could find. They still do.
In the old days, these were the Ravens, Jennings and such. With laws banning manufacture of these weapons, the firearm carried by the average thug has actually gone up in quality.
Please understand, I'm not criticizing the Glock or Glock owners as being 'cheap'; I'm saying because of the great distribution of Glocks, they are probably one of the most stolen firearms and therefore in widest circulation in the illegal firearm market, therefore 'cheaper' than some others.
Also, please understand, I'm talking about typical street thugs who are simply too lazy to work. There are some exceptions, like the Northridge Bank robbers, who did some careful planning and preparing. Obviously, what I've written here is not carved in stone, but is meant as a general overview. There are all sorts of exceptions.
I have not done a survey, scientific or not. However, I do have some observations.
Criminals cannot legally buy guns, so they buy (sometimes rent) weapons on the underground market. In many areas, this really comes down to dealer's choice; it's a seller's market. The seller deals in whatever he can get.
Guns are expensive. Regular firearms in the legal market are expensive to begin. Dealing in stolen weapons - even though probably cheap in dollars to the illegal dealer - increases risk and therefore increases overhead. Buying a 'hot' gun by a 'hot' buyer cannot be cheaper than an equivlent legal gun. No dealer is going to accept less than the 'going market price'.
This is modified by 'consumer demand'. Criminals are not typically gun collectors, or particularly knowledgeable about firearms. I spoke with one young man of questionable integrity about guns once. He (he claimed) could load and fire a Glock without hurting himself or firing too many negligent discharges. On that basis, he thought he was well trained. I asked him what caliber handgun he had fired and his response was, "A nine." He didn't know anything more than that. Because of this relative ignorance, there are some curious reversals in the demand side of the equation. Glocks are prized because they are well known, widely distributed (so illegal dealers have more chance of getting them) and used by police and are therefore thought to be 'good guns'. For those criminals who have actually fired a gun, a 9x19 Glock doesn't recoil much and has a lot of shots. (I'm not trying to offend Glock enthusiasts here.) A Glock is much more valuable to a criminal than a Registered Magnum with box and papers, for instance. 'Everyone knows' revolvers are outdated and only hold six rounds. Besides, they're loud and kick like a mule.
Criminals are not famed for forethought. To a criminal, a gun is a tool, equipment required for the job and is therefore an 'expense'. 'Expense' should be kept low to maximize return. At the same time, a gun is to intimidate and ensure compliance from the victim. So a shotgun is valued in this regard. Some brighter villians understand they have a better chance of making a hit with a shotgun than a handgun. On the down side, shotguns are harder to hide.
Therefore, criminals buy the commonest, least expensive guns they can find. Back in the pre do-gooder days, criminals would buy the cheapest, smallest guns they could find. They still do.
In the old days, these were the Ravens, Jennings and such. With laws banning manufacture of these weapons, the firearm carried by the average thug has actually gone up in quality.
Please understand, I'm not criticizing the Glock or Glock owners as being 'cheap'; I'm saying because of the great distribution of Glocks, they are probably one of the most stolen firearms and therefore in widest circulation in the illegal firearm market, therefore 'cheaper' than some others.
Also, please understand, I'm talking about typical street thugs who are simply too lazy to work. There are some exceptions, like the Northridge Bank robbers, who did some careful planning and preparing. Obviously, what I've written here is not carved in stone, but is meant as a general overview. There are all sorts of exceptions.
Carl N. Brown
Member
In going through page 25 of the findings, it becomes obvious
that many of the models are models made or imported in
the millions--long guns Marlin 60 and 336, Winchester 94,
Mossberg 500, Remington 870, Norinco SKS. That is kinda like
finding out that traces of crime cars shows overwelmingly
Fords and Chevrolets.
The policy implications of lists like this are scary. I and
my son own Marlin 60 and 336 rifles. Should police give
us special attention because they are commonly traced
crime guns?
that many of the models are models made or imported in
the millions--long guns Marlin 60 and 336, Winchester 94,
Mossberg 500, Remington 870, Norinco SKS. That is kinda like
finding out that traces of crime cars shows overwelmingly
Fords and Chevrolets.
The policy implications of lists like this are scary. I and
my son own Marlin 60 and 336 rifles. Should police give
us special attention because they are commonly traced
crime guns?
RNB65
Member
Criminals carry whatever they can steal or buy for a few bucks on the street (which was, no doubt, stolen). They're not picky about what it is.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Marvin E. Wolfgang, Patterns in Criminal Homicide, U. of Pa. Press, 1958.
A study of 588 murders that occurred from 1948 to 1952 including
background and relationship of murderer and victim, and circumstances
of the murder:
A study of 588 murders that occurred from 1948 to 1952 including
background and relationship of murderer and victim, and circumstances
of the murder:
HMMurdock
Member
In the ol evidence locker there are a lot of firearms, a couple high quality pieces-- Sigs, Hks, Glocks. But for every one of those there are two dozen Lorcen, Davis, Phoenix and Jennings .22s, .25s, .32s and .380s. Lots and lots and lots of those. The occasional Llama .45, too. I've seen a Desert Eagle or Kimber comes through, but if I had a nickel for every cheaply chromed Davis Arms I've run across...
Of the personal arrests I've done, they are almost exclusively whatever could be bought for under $60, hidden in a pocket and thrown away without concern. I know if I had to toss a Benelli M-series 12-gauge in a bush while on the run I'd start reevaluating my place in life.
You see and hear a lot about Glocks, and they are definately out there along with the Ruger semis when talking anything of redeemable quality, but not as often as the bottom barrel cheapies in my experience. I guess rap stars sound cooler when they rap about "twin Glock .40's" than their "little Jennings .22"?
Of the personal arrests I've done, they are almost exclusively whatever could be bought for under $60, hidden in a pocket and thrown away without concern. I know if I had to toss a Benelli M-series 12-gauge in a bush while on the run I'd start reevaluating my place in life.
You see and hear a lot about Glocks, and they are definately out there along with the Ruger semis when talking anything of redeemable quality, but not as often as the bottom barrel cheapies in my experience. I guess rap stars sound cooler when they rap about "twin Glock .40's" than their "little Jennings .22"?
raubritter
Member
Every gun I've seen in use by street level fools has been small and silvery, cromish, stainless, faux nickel, or silver-ish. Lorcins, brycos, jenning. The largest one I saw was the Jennings in 9mm. They really preffer the brighter finishes. The more professional criminals DON'T make a habbit of letting everyone see their weapons and are involved in far less shootings. I don't know what they usually have, probably a wide variety.
indie
Member
Justin this is a direct link on the study from the link you provided. 2000 ATF study. That was just what i was looking for, thanks. I hear the ATF studies are no longer public.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/2000/generalfindings.pdf
Archie, thanks for your insight. I wonder if most of the gunbuying public is as gun-ignorant as the criminal element.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/2000/generalfindings.pdf
Archie, thanks for your insight. I wonder if most of the gunbuying public is as gun-ignorant as the criminal element.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Indie-
Thanks for the direct link.
Thanks for the direct link.
Joe Demko
Member
Years ago, on a courtesy tour, I got to see the firearms lab at the headquarters of the Washington DC Metro Police. They had a mind boggling array of guns that had been used in crimes. Everything from an MP-40 to a Thompson-Center Contender. The officers from the lab said that the most common guns they encountered were .38 special revolvers of various makes. This was back in the 80's before the Age of the Autoloader. What struck me as interesting at the time is that, no matter how unsuitable a gun enthusiast might consider it for the purpose, if a criminal thinks a gun is needed he'll use whatever gun he can get.
jferrell54
Member
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Believe it or not, it seems the crooks in the Richmond,Virginia metro area are using more revolvers. They leave no shell casings. It takes the Medical Examiner a little longer to I.D. the calber of weapon. And by then they've probably taken the gun back to grandmas house and gotten another.
Jim Watson
Member
A survey a number of years ago showed that crooks preferred the same thing that cops and and citizens prefer... good quality name brand medium caliber handguns. Cheap guns and sawn off rifles and shotguns were expedients, monster guns like Desert Eagles were for brag and flash.
These threads are always hilarious. They get on average whatever they find the most of while stealing that is also concealable or that they can modify to be concealable.
This includes the most popular handguns, which are both Glocks and 1911's, many type of wheelguns in popular calibers from .22, 38sp, .357, .44 mag etc
Most automatics in the country are in 9mm and .45ACP, guess what most criminals are using? I imagine .40SW will be a "prefered" caliber in no time as it is also going to be run across and stolen frequently.
Shotguns are common and can often be shortened. In fact the pumps are easier than the autos because the criminal does not need to know anything about correcting for the change in applied pressure to keep an auto cycling. They just saw it with a cheap hacksaw. Over unders and side by sides can obviously be sawed down even smaller as they don't have a large action. In places like Australia where pumps are too evil and handguns rare, you see pistol sized double barrel shotguns illegaly shortened as the "prefered" firearm used by common criminals.
Rifles are often unwieldy, and unconcealable and therefore not kept on hand for use, either by law abiding citizens or criminals on average. What you keep in your vehicle or locked away in your home is probably not what will ever be used to save your life when most encounters happen and end very fast.
So its not because there is certain guns they just prefer, its because the drug addicts and fellow criminals doing burglaries/robberies run into those types more often and circulate them in the underground market.
This includes the most popular handguns, which are both Glocks and 1911's, many type of wheelguns in popular calibers from .22, 38sp, .357, .44 mag etc
Most automatics in the country are in 9mm and .45ACP, guess what most criminals are using? I imagine .40SW will be a "prefered" caliber in no time as it is also going to be run across and stolen frequently.
Shotguns are common and can often be shortened. In fact the pumps are easier than the autos because the criminal does not need to know anything about correcting for the change in applied pressure to keep an auto cycling. They just saw it with a cheap hacksaw. Over unders and side by sides can obviously be sawed down even smaller as they don't have a large action. In places like Australia where pumps are too evil and handguns rare, you see pistol sized double barrel shotguns illegaly shortened as the "prefered" firearm used by common criminals.
Rifles are often unwieldy, and unconcealable and therefore not kept on hand for use, either by law abiding citizens or criminals on average. What you keep in your vehicle or locked away in your home is probably not what will ever be used to save your life when most encounters happen and end very fast.
So its not because there is certain guns they just prefer, its because the drug addicts and fellow criminals doing burglaries/robberies run into those types more often and circulate them in the underground market.
Joe the Redneck
Member
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I used to watch COPS on tv.
I remeber a poop load of Ravens and Hi Points.
I remeber a poop load of Ravens and Hi Points.
tbtrout
Member
A few of the guys who work for me that come out of Trenton, tell me they are 38's an 9mm's, specifically Taurus PT 92's are the most popular. Take it for what it is worth.
Tom Servo
Member
Don't forget flash suppressors and bayonets! I see lots of those on the street.
The Atlanta report lists just the ones I'd expect: Davis Industries, Lorcin, Bryco Arms, Hi-Point, along with a few Glocks and S&W autos. Most common caliber was .380.
Basically, cheap (in price, don't flame me for calling Glocks "cheap") and easily concealable. Here in A-Town, homie don't go for no revolvers or long guns, yo.
Good thing I do
SouthronBoy
Member
The cops around here carry Glock .40s, so consequently, they're popular with the bad guys too.
There's a fair amount of Lorcin and Jennings pistols out there, mostly in 9mm and .380.
Quite a few dealers have SKSs and shotguns at home, but the handguns go in the center console or waistband.
There's a fair amount of Lorcin and Jennings pistols out there, mostly in 9mm and .380.
Quite a few dealers have SKSs and shotguns at home, but the handguns go in the center console or waistband.
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