Potential hazard from powder fire?

[ny32182]

(I'm planning to start reloading soon... never worked with powder before).

In years past, I've pulled apart a couple of individual rounds with pliers, poured out the powder, and lit it just to see it burn in person. Fun.

However, that is not really enough to tell "how it burns" if a bigger pile of it gets lit.

Are there any standard safety procedures when handling or storing cans of powder? I assume, for instance, that you don't want an open powder can sitting there while you work with your priming tool, or anything else that could cause a spark or flame?

What happens if you somehow do get a can of powder lit? Will an ordinary fire extinguisher put it out? Does a large volume of it become explosive if burning in the open air?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

 

[Sunray]

Smokeless powder does not explode. It just burns fast in the open. If you're using new powders in the plastic 'can', the plastic will melt sending the fire in every direction. A CO2 extinguisher might put it out, but you'll have everything the column of fire touches burning too.
Lit an old can of Bullseye in a clay ashtray, outdoors, one time to dispose of it. The column of fire was about 10 feet or so high. Took about 30 seconds to burn off. Inside the ceiling would have caught.
After all that, smokeless powder is extremely safe to use. It'd take a sustained spark/flame to light it. Static electricity won't do it. Just keep the lids on the cans when you're not pouring powder into the hopper/powder thrower and away from any open flames and you'll be fine.

 

[SDefender]

Try going to any powder manufacturers web site and they should have answers to your questions, and many more. Usually they list the government regulations concerning powder storage and handling.

I have not lit a bunch and then tried to put it out, but powder does have its own oxidizers. Normally things only become explosive when contained.

Try this link: http://alliantpowder.com/safety/storage.htm[/url]

 

[rcmodel]

Don't even bother with a fire extinguisher.
All it will do is get you burned up in the process of blowing burning powder all over the room.

If a can gets lit, it will all be over before you have time to run, or bend over and kiss your bleep goodbye.

So, the best plan is to never let a can of powder catch fire!

*Keep the lid on at all times.
*Keep the powder measure cover on.
*Don't smoke while reloading.
*Keep spilled powder cleaned up on the loading bench & floor.
*Don't store 20 pound kegs under your bench grinder like a Krispy-Kritter friend of mine once did.

Do that and you will be fine.


rcmodel

 

[K3]

Don't even bother with a fire extinguisher.
All it will do is get you burned up in the process of blowing burning powder all over the room.

If a can gets lit, it will all be over before you have time to run, or bend over and kiss your bleep goodbye.

So, the best plan is to never let a can of powder catch fire!

*Keep the lid on at all times.
*Keep the powder measure cover on.
*Don't smoke while reloading.
*Keep spilled powder cleaned up on the loading bench & floor.
*Don't store 20 pound kegs under your bench grinder like a Krispy-Kritter friend of mine once did.

Do that and you will be fine.


rcmodel

Do people actually do this?

 

[Geno]

I disposed of 1 pound of old 3100 powder years ago. Like a less-than-smart person, I made one single pile. It started out burning slowly, then started to burn faster and bigger. It ended up flaming up pretty darned impressively. I was standing about 10 feet away, and I could seriously feel the heat. I had read in my reloading manual to never exceed 1 pound per pile. Yeah! Never again.

Doc2005

 

[ny32182]

So if you have a can light indoors, the best thing is to just not try to put it out until all the powder has burned away...

 

[RecoilRob]

If a can should 'light' indoors, your best move is to RUN..RUN as fast as you can away and get to a phone to call the fire dept. because you are going to have a totally engulfed structure in no-time. You will be lucky to escape without serious injury....so RUN!

Best thing about this whole thread is...DON'T ALLOW POWDER TO CATCH FIRE!!!!

I have lit 4lbs of various smokeless powders and can say they are NOT something you want to be around when they get to burning. The best was the 3lb coffee can of Cordite salvaged from 350 .303 Brit. cartridges. Dropped a lit cigarette (after smoking it...not wastefull) on top of the powder and ran. It burned up a bit like normal smokeless would then BOOM!!..the whole can went up in a fraction of a second.

If that had been within a structure....the structure would have been compromised, at least the windows...probably would have been on fire too if anything inside was able to burn.

Have we decided that letting a can of powder catch fire is NOT a good idea?

 

[ny32182]

I think plan "A" has always been to not light a can indoors.

I'm trying to get plan "B" nailed down. Thanks for the input so far.

 

[ojibweindian]

I'm pretty sure you can dispose of powder by using it as a fertilizer.

 

[Doug b]

ny32182 I believe all the reloading manuals contain the safe and legal handling procedures for smokeless powder. Buy as many current ones as you can afford, one of each is ideal.

 

[ny32182]

So far on my book list I have the ABC's, the Lyman manual, and the caliber specific manuals for .223 and .308.

 

[strat81]

Do people actually do this?

I've seen people smoking while pumping gas, so why not while reloading?

 

[rcmodel]

Do people actually do this?

Well, at least one did.
About 25 years ago, a friend of mine who was a very knowledgeable shooter & reloader, as well as a gun-shop owner, actually got burned up pretty badly with a 20 pound keg of surplus 4895.

Anyway, he had a keg of powder setting under his workbench, with the lid off.
It was exactly in line with the sparks from his bench grinder.

So he is grinding away on a lawn-mower blade, the keg of powder lit up almost between his legs, and he was very severely burned all over. Lost his ears, part of his nose, some fingers, and 3rd. & 4th. degree burns all over the front of his face & body.

He survived after many skin grafts, but finely died about a year after the fire due to other complications from it.


rcmodel

 

[RyanM]

Powder is about as much of a fire hazard as many common household chemicals, like nail polish remover, and 151 rum. Won't make too much of a difference to the damage done if your house catches on fire, as long as you don't have all your flammables concentrated in one place. But you don't want to be near anything like one of those if it catches on fire.

 

[rcmodel]

I am much more concerned about the lawn-mower gas can, and the propane grill bottle in the garage, then I am with all the smokeless powder I keep in the house.

Both Gasoline & Propane are far more dangerous to keep in your house!


rcmodel

 

[K3]

I am much more concerned about the lawn-mower gas can, and the propane grill bottle in the garage, then I am with all the smokeless powder I keep in the house.

Both Gasoline & Propane are far more dangerous to keep in your house!


rcmodel

Yes, and I would venture to say that most of us have one or both. I keep my powder in a metal cabinet. Primers are separate from powder. I keep lawnmower gas in the shed in the backyard. I do keep my grill and it's propane tank in the garage though. It's 4 years old but looks brand new in spite of heavy use. Keeping it out of the rain and sun has helped it keep it's appearance.

 

[ny32182]

Hopefully a dumb question, but are there any issues with storing powder, and homeowner's insurance? If your house burns down from lit powder, is it covered?

 

[SilentArmy]

I filled a milk jug lid with some square flake powder from some old 8mm mauser cartridges and lit it out on my deck. The flame was about 4 ft high and that small amount burned for about 5-7 second very intensely! I would not want to experience a 1lb or 8 lb burn. I would second the "run away" advice on that for sure.

 

[Jim Gwyn]

fumes from burning powder

OK, I think that the whole "fire bad, fire very bad" thing's been addressed pretty thoroughly already so I'll touch on another aspect of the question.

The fumes from unconfined (*) burning powder can be very toxic with various nitrogen oxides ~or~ carbon monoxide. (Not both at the same time, they'd react with one another.) The nitrogen oxides are what give the brownish/reddish color to the vapor. Nitrogen dioxide is one of the bad ones. According to BOC gases MSDS, http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g61.pdf):

The short term exposure limit for NO2 is 5 ppm and the concentration in air that is lethal to 50 % (LC50) of exposed rats is 88 ppm. Worse, exposure can have delayed effects such as cyanosis and pulmonary edema. Also, the stuff can get under contact lenses and cause severe eye damage. Follow the link for gory details.

(FWIW, I'm a chemist and do safety professionally.)

So I agree, if you have a large powder fire inside run, don't walk to the fastest exit.

(*) Smokeless powder combustion product chemistry changes greatly depending on pressure and temperature of combustion.

 

[ny32182]

Thanks Jim...

Are those gasses not formed when firing rounds, or are they just less of a concern since the powder is just being burned a little at a time and hopefully you're in a well ventilated area?

 

[scrat]

Well i like the theory of just dont think about it. Why bring it up. Talking about burning gun powder in or out of your home. Is like talking about wanting to play russian roulette. Sure you can play it. Just dont come here talking about it. Nobody hear needs to know what you do with gun powder.

Now that thats said.

Read the bottle, read the sites. Practice what it says. Here is the scoop. It says to keep it in a cool dry area. So do it. Most reloaders can have easily 10 bottles of powder. I keep mine in the closet. In my room. Primers too. Primers are seperate in a metal box. The powder is together. All manufactures say to always keep the powder in its original container. There is a reason. The original containers are designed to split when put in a fire. WHY. Manufactures say to keep the lid closed tightly, bottle in a cool dry place. OK if the lid is on tight and the bottle is subject to burning or intense heat. THen you have a bomb. However the bottle is designed to splt. So the burn will be a controlled burn rather than an explosion. Now its all neat to see how gun powder burns. I would never recomend or hear about someone burning over 100 grains of powder just to see it burn. I can see it now. You do something like this. A neighbor hears the sizzle. Smells the smoke. Then someone is knocking at your door to see what your doing. Gun powder is a unique smell. People who shoot will know what you did. Then being an active shooter and reloader. Why would i want to do something stupid like that. I NEED THAT POWDER. Im going to reload it and shoot it. When you were taking apart the bullets. I hope you didnt use a pair of plyers and a vise. Use proper equipment. a kinetic bullet puller or a bullet puller is the proper thing to use.

Use safe handeling and proper storage and loading techniques. Its not cool to tell everyone how you blew up your back yard or lit a gallon of powder in your bbq or fireplace.

Next someone will be ranting on how they drove around town all day and night witha loaded shotgun and the saftey off. Then we ask why lobiest are trying to ban firearms.

Its called common sence. If gun powder was made to be used in a gun. Then use it in a gun people. Id like to see what a liberal would do if they read this post. I can see it on ABC news tonight.

 

[RyanM]

Thanks Jim...

Are those gasses not formed when firing rounds, or are they just less of a concern since the powder is just being burned a little at a time and hopefully you're in a well ventilated area?

(*) Smokeless powder combustion product chemistry changes greatly depending on pressure and temperature of combustion.

 

[TEDDY]

powder

Guess I'll put in my two cents:if powder ignites you my not get to run.
couple young men were reloading shot shells had 4 pound can red dot on bench,were smoking grass,put butt on shelf it fell in to canister,threw arms in front of face.room turned orange,curtains burned,clothes burned,face blistered,hair burned off.called fire department police came took their guns.fire was out long before firemen arrived.I have the 600 mec.no damage looks like new. bottles did not burn,house did not burn.
moral of story do not light powder.they were lucky.and fools.needless to say they lost interest.
my powder is in garage my primers in refrig in garage[not running just insulated]one must-must always take care always never be unaware of whats going on.

 

[snuffy]

Free burning smokeless powder burns at an extremely high temperature. The more powder that's present the higher the temp.

As long as we're telling stories, When I first started loading shotshells, I was doing so at my brothers house. I had several canisters of about 6 different shotgun powders there in an unlocked room.

My nephew, then was 9 yrs. old. He wondered how powder burned. So he took a dab from each container so I wouldn't notice some was missing. He wanted to play show & tell with some neighborhood kids, so he dumped some on the ground, lit it! Wow, pretty fireworks! He put a little more the next time, even better! Well if a little is good, a bit more is great, all the rest would be awesome! He proceeded to dump the rest on the pile, apparently there was a spark left from the previous pile. The powder caught, followed the stream into the plastic bottle. There was a WOOF followed by a fireball. He got 3rd degree burns to his hand,, face, and neck.

My brother told me he didn't spank or otherwise punish him. He looked awful, it hurt a lot, but he recovered completely. I just made him pay for what he wasted. A lock was put on the "loading room"!