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Proper battle rifle!

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Hatterasguy

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http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68486

15k+ rounds with no cleaning...well he does dunk it in a mud puddle every few thousand and sprays some oil on the bolt and carrier.:D The best part is that its continued hard use over years, not a weekend test. Although a 10k round weekend has been done with a Fal once without any real issues.


I'd love to see a DI AR do that.:evil::neener:
 
I'd love to see a DI AR do that.

Done: http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers

"Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

Thanks, drive through.
 
ah, filthy 14. Trolling and enlightening doubters wherever you go...
 
Mike Pannone did another test, stripping the lube from an AR and firing it over 2,500 rounds until stoppage. It showed the mythology of the jammomatic is just that, uninformed superstition.

9 million made, still in use, but there are those who still celebrate curios and relics no longer in service.

BTW, Mattel did not ever make an M16 that could fire ammo. They did make some for sale to children, it's rather sad to hear some people still revealing they couldn't tell the difference.
 
Yup, Old Dirty is quite the good story, years in the making.
Several things have contributed to the jammomatic legend.
One I haven't herad but suspect, too much full auto fire cooked the extractor spring, and spring technology has come a long way in 50 years and some still band-aid this problem with rubber bits.
The problem is this is a rather short spring that operates close to coil bind in a bolt that is also the gas piston. The carbon-silicon springs look to have finally solved this problem as they can take more heat as well as be more "springy" for the same wire size.

Sadly this still does not change the fact that the 5.56 is not a battle rifle caliber, weather there is still a need for a battle rifle in the 21st century is another discussion. One group believes one gun/cartridge for all battles is possible, the other does not.
 
AR owners seem to be very sensitive
There is a lot of misinformation, FUD and just plain lies out there about the M16/AR15.

I own a couple FALs, a couple AKs, and a couple ARs. They all work. The ARs are just a bit lighter and more accurate.

My most problematic gun of the group is actually one of the FALs. I had a gas piston jam up on me because I didn't clean it regularly (OK, ever) and I'm having a lot of reliability issues crop up since converting it to a Para with all DSA parts (I think it's the DSA scope mount/top cover). Though aside from the gas piston issue, this rifle was 100% reliable in the fixed stock configuration.
 
AR owners seem to be very sensitive.
They are no more sensitive than any other owners group is when their favorite platform gets bashed. Just try to tell a Harley owner that you can get a lot more motorcycle for your money with a Honda, or try to tell a Rolex guy that your boutiqe Swiss automatic does everything his watch does at on tenth the cost, or say that Taylor guitars have better tone than Martin guitars to an old bluegrass picker.
 
Only problem I had with my FAL when I got it used, the spring round the firing pin was so long I was getting duds on reloads using Winchester primers, it would not fire any mil-surp at all, removed a coil at a time and now it 100%. If that's the worst the angry beavers did I count my self very lucky.
 
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They are no more sensitive than any other owners group is when their favorite platform gets bashed. Just try to tell a Harley owner that you can get a lot more motorcycle for your money with a Honda, or try to tell a Rolex guy that your boutiqe Swiss automatic does everything his watch does at on tenth the cost, or say that Taylor guitars have better tone than Martin guitars to an old bluegrass picker.
Now you've gone and made me cry... :(

:p

I've owned an AK, I've owned an AR. Both work.
 
AR owners seem to be very sensitive.
Actually, I think forum readers are just sick and tired of people posting 7 year old threads from another forum just to try to get a rise out of folks who didn't choose to buy the same rifle they did.
 
Actually, I think forum readers are just sick and tired of people posting 7 year old threads from another forum just to try to get a rise out of folks who didn't choose to buy the same rifle they did.

Actualy no, I don't own a Fal or AR. Although I may purchase a Fal in the future but not before an LWRC that I have my eye on. This was the first time I came across this thread and was impressed with this data point. BTW the thread was started 7 years ago, the test is ongoing and updated every few months. Last update was in April 2010.
 
Yeah. Older news may be boring to some. But don't forget, there are others that might see it for the first time. New members, older members that are now getting interested into the topic at hand. Though I do understand where others are coming from, and this is a rather blatant attempt to stir the pot.

Not referencing this specific post, but information should not lie by omission to prove one's point. That isn't very high road. Tell all the facts. Show when they were facts and why. Let us make a collective judgment. At the very least, we can all look back and see how far we have come.

Besides, he should know better than to post something like that on theARroad. :rolleyes:
 
There is a lot of misinformation, FUD and just plain lies out there about the M16/AR15.

I own a couple FALs, a couple AKs, and a couple ARs. They all work. The ARs are just a bit lighter and more accurate.
DINGDINGDING.

Properly assembled ARs, AKs and FALs (and M14s, and G3s, and and and) will run. Where you start to run into problems is when you have improperly assembled guns. Sure, there are baseline differences between the various designs in everything (accuracy, reliability, durability), but they're often a lot smaller than internet hype makes them out to be. ARs are more reliable than you think, AKs are more accurate than you think, etc.

What drives me nuts is when someone buys some bargain-basement AR and moans that it isn't reliable and bashes the whole design, or wonders why their $250 WASR is shooting about 6 MOA with tarnished and dented ammo bought from some toothless guy at a gunshow.

An AR will run without cleaning and lube under most conditions, especially under most conditions found in the US. I used to worry about the gun's seeming susceptibility to jamming when exposed to talc-like sand, then I figured out:

1. The gun doesn't perform that much worse than other designs in those conditions

and (most importantly)

2. There's no talc-like sand in Ohio.

Mike

PS Full Disclosure: I own ARs, M14/M1As, FALs and AKs. They all run.
 
Lets face facts.

A FAL is a must own in any reasonable gun collection.

"The right arm of the free world..."

I lusted for one for years before getting one.

Lumbergh
 
I wouldn't doubt it could be done, but at twice the price point and less firepower a kit built FAL rifle offers.
If it was eight years ago, I'd agree concerning the price. :rolleyes:

FAL kits are higher than what AR kits cost, and FAL receivers cost 2-3x what an AR receiver does.
 
There is a lot of misinformation, FUD and just plain lies out there about the M16/AR15.

Sure are. Suggested reading to get the facts from folks that were there.

IF you are interested in facts read the stuff below, or perpetuate Internet BS. read it:

The Hill Fights: The First Battle of Khe Sanh by Edward E. Murphy (I strongly recommend the addendum about the M16)

Then:
Col. Culver tells the story much better than I can. He has a lot more facts than I do. I was not in the Col's outfit, but our experiences were similar. Our time with 3rd Marines over lapped, I was not IN the 3rd Marines, I was attached Out of SubUnit II 3rdMarDiv in a TACP (Tactical Air Control Party. Ground A/C fAC’s)

Part I

http://www.jouster.com/saga_of_M16/saga_of_the_m16_part_1.pdf

Part II

http://www.jouster.com/saga_of_M16/saga_of_the_m16_part_2.pdf

Friends of mine died because of that rifle, and many were wounded. I bagged and tagged some of them, myself.

I have asked AR kool aide drinkers this question for over 40 years. Not one has had the sack to answer.

How many of your friends and buddies does it take to die and get wounded directly because of the incompetence of a weapon’s system for you to never to trust it again?

What is your answer? I have had to answered that question every night for over 43 years.

Mike Pannone did another test, stripping the lube from an AR and firing it over 2,500 rounds until stoppage. It showed the mythology of the jammomatic is just that, uninformed superstition.

Yup, that’s why SpecOps and Rangers in Afghanistan are going to FN SCARS MK 16 and MK 17

9 million made, still in use, but there are those who still celebrate curios and relics no longer in service.

Very reliable if you get one that has had the sand cuts required to be reliable in desert service, as the British found out.

BTW, Mattel did not ever make an M16 that could fire ammo. They did make some for sale to children, it's rather sad to hear some people still revealing they couldn't tell the difference.

Absolutely. Mattel never made an M16. It was the M16 that behaved like a Matty Mattel. I am sure some folks didn’t know the difference.

Unfortunately the way they actually worked in combat is what earned them that moniker, and why every Marine I met in country who could get the old Mattel decal put one on his M16.

I actually had the option to carry a FAL, at one time when attached to the 42 Commando in Malta. Never needed it in any fighting. I did the majority of my fighting with the 7.62 NATO. It never let me down. Not perfect, just worked every time I need it to.

The 5.56 NATO worked most of the time, luckily when it failed for me, it was usually at longer range, and not immediately life threatening. So I never felt threatened with the old 55gr bullet. I never used the newer 62gr in combat.

I am a two caliber guy. I think a rifle like the SCAR Mk 17 (that is already being deployed) that with a “filler” in the Magazine well could use both calibers. The 5.56 for “URBAN” use, and of course the 7.62 when called for, just put a different upper on it. That way once the optics are set up they can left on board.

Go figure.

Fred
 
Cheiftan. I have told you this before.....

The M16A2/A3/A4 and the M4 are not the same rifle that was issued early on in Vietnam. If the military had thrown the M14 into combat without propper testing, switched some of the original specs, and then didnt issue cleaning kits.... it would have been a disaster as well.

Unfortunately the US government let you down big time with that. BUT in the last 40 years they have done everything to the rifle that should have been done in the first place.

Also my old squad leader who is in 5th groups carries a Daniel Defense shorty upper M4 in Afghanistan and has never touched the SCAR. It is being fielded, but not widely fielded.
 
Aren't SCARs, MASADAs, piston uppers, etc. being fielded in much the same way that Johnsons were in WWII? Meaning, issued, used the same ammo, but never quite made it to the mainstream?
 
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