Putin sends a shiver through Europe

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The problem with nuclear power isn't technology, it's people. The history of civilian nuke power in this country doesn't inspire confidence. Which shouldn't surprise anyone, given that the NRC board is dominated by utility executives.

When it comes to the operation of devices that can kill hundreds of thousands of people in an accident, "trust us" won't cut it. And the record in this country doesn't inspire much trust. These are the same people who, when presented with a relief valve that kept opening up, chose to wire it closed with bailing wire rather than replace it.

This is not an area where the market will provide the best outcome. Safety makes no money.

--Shannon
 
Back to the original thread:

Russia is stirring things up. Our friends in Europe need to go it alone without our involvement this time.
 
This was a simple contractual commercial dispute. Not really political.

Ukraine simply was paying way below-market rates for natural gas, a holdover from the old Soviet/COMECON days. Now that Russia is selling some resources in a global market, it wants to get a competetive price and not the lowball price Ukraine was paying (a rate apparently about 1/4 the price Russia could sell gas elsewhere).
 
Russia's been selling gas to the Ukraine and other countries within their sphere of influence at astounding discounts. Since the Ukraine has made clear it wants to join the EU and abandon the Russian sphere, Russia has decided to suspend the discounts and charge the Ukraine what it charges everyone else, i.e. market price. Where's the beef? Why the outrage?
 
When it comes to the operation of devices that can kill hundreds of thousands of people in an accident, "trust us" won't cut it. And the record in this country doesn't inspire much trust. These are the same people who, when presented with a relief valve that kept opening up, chose to wire it closed with bailing wire rather than replace it.

I actually agree with you in general. But I DO believe that there are two things that can "fix" those problems.

1) Use a reactor design that is something like what Teller suggested. One that CAN'T go critical or meltdown. No matter what errors the operators make. That's what seems so good about what the Chinese are doing. Doesn't matter if the coolent leaks out. Doesn't matter if the operators react wrong or the gauges give the wrong feedback. The fuel just isn't concentrated enough to allow temperatures to get too high.

2) Pay attention to what the Chinese are doing. Make the plants fairly small and modular. Standardize the design at the national level. Don't allow utilities to "improve" on the design. Any suggestions go to make the "next generation" standard design; otherwise you just follow the design subject to inspections.

Nobody in the US or Western Europe has ever died from an atomic power accident. France has a heck of a lot of them. Are we saying that they are smarter than us? Better engineers or operators?

The bottom line is that I don't see an alternative. The 50's textbooks said we would be using fusion by now. I've looked here and there and under my bed but I don't see it happening. Finding ways to dig up more coal (and burning it) or finding more oil (and burning it) are stopgap solutions. We have to work in those areas (as well as becoming more efficient) but we need a national decision to start building atomic power plants and we need to start down that road soon. When you think about what could happen otherwise, it could be the most important thing the current US Government could decide to work on.

Gregg
 
Koobuh said:
.41Dave said:
Shortages of uranium could get so bad that it could precipitate a war between rivalling nations and then prices could hit unheard of levels. QUOTE]
Sorry, that's not a funny joke. Try again. Not even considering this statement as an analogy for the mainstream impression of our oil supply issues, it's a weak statement.
Uranium is one of the more common rare earths, and easily accessible supplies are available throughout the world.
The current mines are not operating at full capacity, and only pulling out what is (relatively) easily processed.
The reserve mines are far, far more in number than the active mines, and more are being found all the time.
To put it bluntly, we won't have to worry about Uranium running out, ever. In fact I would put the 'Uranium is running out' concept right up there with that 'peak oil' bovine excrement.

Could you imagine the absolute chaos such an event would cause in the worlds armed forces? No more nuclear reactors for subs or carriers, no more fissile material for nuclear weapons, no more DU rounds... And yet, with this purported 'run out' scenario being projected for 2007, we're still using Uranium at a stately pace, with no alternatives in place for such a ridiculous contingency.


Consider the following facts

1) Over 50% of the world’s supply of Uranium is located in just 3 countries, Australia 30%, Canada 14% and Kazakhstan 17%. Even though Australia has the world’s largest reserves Canada produces the worlds most uranium accounting for 18% of total output.

2) Uranium prices have almost tripled since the start of 2004. If it were plentiful, the price would remain stable or fall, not triple in 2 years.

3) It is projected that world’s energy demand will increase by an additional 65% in approx 15 years. At this point in time the only solution that appears to have a chance of dealing with this increase is nuclear power plants; the only material able to power these plants is uranium.

4) One pound of Uranium produces roughly the same energy as 37 barrels of oil or 8.9 tons of coal; the choice is all but obvious.

Technically speaking there is more than enough uranium out there to power all the stations that are going to be built. The problem is that this uranium is in the ground and needs to be mined and at the moment there are not enough operating mines to produce all the uranium we need. Furthermore not enough money and resources are being dedicated to exploration and the opening up of new mines; another thing to remember is that it can take up to 2 years before a closed mine or a new mine becomes fully operational. Hence demand cannot be rapidly quenched even with the opening of 100’s of new mines. I agree with you that there is virtually an endless amount of uranium available in the Earths crust and in seawater; the main problem right now is the exorbitant cost factor in extracting it. One day it might be economical to obtain uranium from these sources but not right now.

The race to build new nuclear plants to supply developing nations future electric needs is about to create a very explosive situation. It’s no longer a matter of if but when this situation will go out of control; we do not have enough uranium above the ground to power current nuclear power plants. At present approx 50% of the demand is coming from reserve supplies (mostly the decommissioning of old nuclear war heads); imagine what will happen when all those new nuclear power plants come online. The tragedy here is that these plants can only operate on uranium and nothing else and so at some point in time these plants will have to do whatever it takes to get uranium or shut down. There is plenty of Uranium in the ground; the problem is that it takes time for these new mines to come online. It can take up to two years for these mines to be fully operational. So far no major effort has been mounted to address this issue and demand already exceeds supply and the supply situation keeps getting worse with the passage of each day.

A few experts in the field have written articles about new and existing technologies (both non military and military) out there that can extract additional energy from spent nuclear fuel rods (some experts suggest that only about 20-30% of the potential energy has been extracted from these spent nuclear rods.); the problem is always the same companies take forever to implement new technologies. As of now very few companies have decided to implement these technologies and another issue to consider is the cost factor. Even if cost were not issue there is still going to be a lag time between deciding to implement and implementing these new technologies. All one needs to do is look at the coal sector; cleaner coal burning technologies exist which make new coal plants nearly as clean burning as natural gas plants. However there has been no mad rush to build new coal plants even though the USA has extremely huge reserves. The thing to keep in mind is that most disasters are actually preventable but history has clearly indicated that man does not believe in prevention but only in responding after such an event has taken place.

One final note, DU rounds are made with DEPLETED uranium. DU is what is left after the fuel rods from a reactor are no longer useable as fuel. It is literally nuclear waste. So I'm not arguing for a shortage of DU.
 
tulsamal said:
I actually agree with you in general. But I DO believe that there are two things that can "fix" those problems.

1) Use a reactor design that is something like what Teller suggested. One that CAN'T go critical or meltdown. No matter what errors the operators make. That's what seems so good about what the Chinese are doing. Doesn't matter if the coolent leaks out. Doesn't matter if the operators react wrong or the gauges give the wrong feedback. The fuel just isn't concentrated enough to allow temperatures to get too high.

2) Pay attention to what the Chinese are doing. Make the plants fairly small and modular. Standardize the design at the national level. Don't allow utilities to "improve" on the design. Any suggestions go to make the "next generation" standard design; otherwise you just follow the design subject to inspections.

Nobody in the US or Western Europe has ever died from an atomic power accident. France has a heck of a lot of them. Are we saying that they are smarter than us? Better engineers or operators?

The bottom line is that I don't see an alternative. The 50's textbooks said we would be using fusion by now. I've looked here and there and under my bed but I don't see it happening. Finding ways to dig up more coal (and burning it) or finding more oil (and burning it) are stopgap solutions. We have to work in those areas (as well as becoming more efficient) but we need a national decision to start building atomic power plants and we need to start down that road soon. When you think about what could happen otherwise, it could be the most important thing the current US Government could decide to work on.

Gregg

I think you meant to say "supercritical" if the reactor doesn't go critical it's just a cold pile of metal. Modern western reactors are not vulnerable to going supercritcal because of the design (negative coeff of reactivity). The RBMK Soviet reactors (like Chernobyl) have a positive coeff of reactivity so they can go supercritical and blow them self apart because they generate a lot of heat very quickly and flash the cooling water to steam.
 
Burt Blade said:
We have had this capability for 60 years, but the Luddites and "Greens" want you shivering in the dark.

+1

They fear that which they do not understand.

Also, it is pretty silly IMO to say that nobody can be trusted with safety issues because of the bottom line. Chemical plants throughout the country produce thousands of compounds that can kill thousands in the area if released in the water or in the air. Somehow, people trust the chemical industry but not nuclear energy. Same goes for food processing, medical care, transportation, etc.

The reasonable approach is to do a cost-benefit analysis, do due dilligence in both design and execution, and keep one's cool in an emergency. Btw, Chernobyl happened because of a conjunction of several negative factors, such as bad design, personal failures, bad policy, and irresponsible experimentation.

AFA the original thread, +1 Romulus.

What is scary is not what Russia did, but what they could do as demonstrated by the events. What they did is simple capitalism, so euro-whiners should get over it. Since when are they entitled to cheap Russian gas? The scary part is that if Russia did actually want to apply political pressure, they clearly could, and a lot of it.
 
one important point is that the reactor that can´t go critical and can´t melt down, regardless what happens is just wishfull thinking. that object can not exist. the same process that allows you to heat water allows it to melt down. you can´t have warm blooded creatures that don´t need to eat, and you cant have nuclear reactors that can´t melt down.

the only problem with the nuclear reactor blueprints we have so far is that they are marginally efficient, economically. if the price of fossil fuels increases somewhat, they will be that much more comparatively efficient. that might help offset the huge costs of research in the minds of the people who decide the budget, and we will have better designs.

on the russia/ukraine issue, as someone said, the russians were giving huge discounts to countries that were friendly, much like israel gets pretty huge discounts for all sorts of weaponry from the us. when the respective sattelites decided to not be friendly anymore... well... you can´t divorce and keep the house, at least not in world politics.
 
Regarding China, and Russia, a a military threat it should be kept in mind that were they to combine they would swamp the whole of NATO in a conventional war.
rick_reno said:
This is a contract dispute, they'll come around or Putin will send in the muscle.
Perhaps alittle deeper than contractual. I think there are clear indications that there was outside influence in the recent Ukraine "election" - and Russia's action here might be a reaction to some financial or other action of the new Ukraine government.
-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
one important point is that the reactor that can´t go critical and can´t melt down, regardless what happens is just wishfull thinking. that object can not exist. the same process that allows you to heat water allows it to melt down. you can´t have warm blooded creatures that don´t need to eat, and you cant have nuclear reactors that can´t melt down.
Incorrect. It takes a LOT higher temperature to melt a uranium-zirconium alloy than to boil water. It is possible (even easy) to design a reactor that produces enough steady-state heat to drive a turbine, but cannot under any circumstances get hot enough to melt the fuel. That's not a difficult problem.

Still, water-moderated PWR's (and BWR's) as we use here in the States, and Canada's heavy-water/natural uranium designs, have an excellent safety record, much better than any other power industry I can think of, even including natural gas, solar, and wind (people fall off roofs installing solar collectors, you know).

Chernobyl was such a bad design because the Soviets wanted a power reactor that they could extract lightly irradiated fuel from on a regular basis, while the reactor was running, in order to extract weapons-grade plutonium to make bombs. That's why it was so big and didn't have crap for a containment vessel.

the only problem with the nuclear reactor blueprints we have so far is that they are marginally efficient, economically. if the price of fossil fuels increases somewhat, they will be that much more comparatively efficient. that might help offset the huge costs of research in the minds of the people who decide the budget, and we will have better designs.
Once the reactor is running, the cost per kilowatt is way better than other alternatives. The expense with reactors is financing the capital cost; fuel cost is minuscule compared to that.
 
What is scary is not what Russia did, but what they could do as demonstrated by the events. What they did is simple capitalism, so euro-whiners should get over it.

Umm, sorry, but definately not capitalism. First, the company selling the gas is state owned, not a private company. Second, the Russian government is using this state owned company to extend political favors or provide political punishment to countries according to how they kowtow to Moscow. For example: Belarus, the last communist dictatorship in Europe pays $47 per unit of gas, while the Baltic states pay $110 per unit of Russian gas. Have been to Russia several times, and have spent the past 4 years visiting Ukraine. Forget about Western style capitalism over there. These guys talk the talk, but the game they play is definately hardball.

Don
 
Three Mile Island showed that with three egregious human errors and some 22 minor mistakes, the net result was a loss of money.

We've had thirty years to improve controls. Thirty years ago there was no Internet. There were no reliable computers in cars. IOW, technology ain't a striaght-line, horizontal "curve". I have a certain amount of difficulty in believing we'd be less safe in the future with nuke power than in the past...

Art
 
Thank you, USSR

It took 38 posts for someone to get to the heart of this. This isn't capitalism, folks, it is political hardball, and they are playing with a ball called "human misery."

And for those who say "eh, contract dispute," the Ukrainians would counter that yes, they have a contract, at the old subsidized price. Ukraine also said it is willing to accept the price increases, but asked Russia to phase them in over several years, rather than slamming them all at once at peak demand time.
 
Three Mile Island was an example of everything that could go wrong, going wrong. The problem is the public precieves nuclear power plants as something that will go off like an atom bomb the first time someone makes the tiniest mistake or attack.
 
Putin is pulling the only lever he has, energy supply. He doesn't have the GDP, tax collecting ability or the popular support to field a large, effective military. He does have a substantial % of the world's fossil fuels. It's no coincidence that he has steadily re-nationalized the oil and gas industries and throw in jail anyone who opposed him.
 
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