question about 7.62x25 from a non-reloader

[Ivy Mike]

I was looking at various posts on the 7.62x25's ability to penetrate armor when a question struck me.
While the 7.62x25 will penetrate some soft armor on its own, could reloading it with a rifle bullet (possibly of the AP variety) give you better armor piercing abilities? What bullets (if any exist) could accomplish this?

I understand that some of this could be illegal and am only asking a hypothetical question. I own no reloading equipment nor anything chambered for 7.62x25.

I'm sorry for the newbishness of my post, but I was curious and this seemed like the best place to ask.

 

[Jim Watson]

Your'e right, it is illegal for an American Commoner to posess armor piercing handgun ammunition.

I will not publicly discuss "hypothetical" means of breaking or evading the law with strangers.

 

[Maxinquaye]

 

[Ivy Mike]

Since mil-surp 7.62x25 will penetrate armor on its own, I don't think my post was too out of line. Reports from others also show that some hotter loads (usually +p+) of FMJ 9mm Luger will defeat light armor at close ranges as will the "duty" ammo (SS192) for the Fn Five-seveN.

Let me put it this way for the squeamish. Could a .308 rifle bullet be made to work in a CZ-52? Would it work in the magazine, chamber and barrell?

 

[only1asterisk]

Loading a rifle bullet into the 7.62x25 would pretty much prevent it from working in any pistol I know of ever made for this or similiar cartridges. It would be WAY too long.
Reloading the 7.62x25 with a heavier rifle bullet will likely not do much to help body armor penetration anyway. Velocity would be too low and stability from a CZ52 would be very questionable.


David

 

[Ivy Mike]

Thanks for your reply.

 

[neolithic hunter]

ap ammo in a 7.62x25

a 7.62x25 has no more ap ability than a 9 luger does. the posession of ap pistol ammo is not illegal the sale and purchase of such ammo is illegal. i have an xp-100 chambered in .308 and have 7.62x51 ap ammo on my shelf does that make me breaking the law, i think not. this even though i have a pistol that will shoot it. the ability of a given pistol round to penatrate armor is an oxy-moron like military intellagence. i used to work at aberdine and we found that the only true pistol bullet to be a dependable penatrator was teflon coated slugs and these were questionalbe as to it's ability to consistantly penatrate hardened material. and a kevlar vest is not concedered hardened unless it has ceramic backing plates and these will stop a 150 gr. 30 cal. ap slug at 15 feet. i know of no pistol bullet with these capabilities.

the groove diameter of a 308 rifle bullet and a bullet for a 7.62x25 are the same. but you put a rifle bullet into this case to work in the magazine, and you have only 1 small problem left no room for the gun powder to make it come out of the barrel

 

[cocma]

Reloading a 7.62x25 to make it a 223 Timbs might do it. I am working with a .223 FMJ and a 30 caliber sabot.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I'm not gonna comment on the AP aspects, But on the topic of rifle bullets in 7.62x25 just google 7.63 Mini Whisper

 

[acmech]

Also called the .223 timbs
http://www.qual-cart.com/223_timbs.htm

 

[Roccobro]

Spitzer type bullets in the 7.62x25 platform has been done by many. Pretty interesting stuff!

Justin

 

[Ivy Mike]

whoa, digging in the thread graveyard. What is it with people bumping really old threads lately.

 

[Roccobro]

 

[mgregg85]

a 7.62x25 has no more ap ability than a 9 luger does.

Sorry but your wrong on this one. The Box O' Truth test #29...

They shoot a USGI kevlar helmet with various rounds, 9mm ball fails to penetrate while the 7.62x25mm from a cz-52 penetrates one side of the helmet and busted the water jug inside of the helmet.

The 7.62x25mm will pierce some body armor. And it will pierce more body armor than a 9mm.

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

If your interest is to defeat body armor like kevlar jackets and vests, pistol bullets of any sort are not very good choices. Almost any center fire rifle, however, will easily penetrate such armor when loaded with bullets whose jackets cover the front. There are lots of boat tailed full metal jacket bullets in many calibers that will go through body armor at velocities much less than 3,000 FPS. Use a full metal jacket boat tail in the little .223, and you will find body armor is ineffective. Use the same type bullet in a 30-06 and the use of body armor is further reduced in any value. You don't need teflon bullets to pierce body armor. Full metal jackets and speed are all that is required. Pistols can use full metal jackets, but they don't have the speed of the rifles to do the job.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Clark]

Newbie,
The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo
2) the CZ52 loads in the book "Accurate Arms Load Book Number Two" published in 2000. These loads are replaced with lower powder charges on the AA website.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/


All currently published loads for he CZ52 are very low pressure and are safe.

And the Tokarev pistols are very strong [compared to a CZ52], despite what is written in the Sierra Pistol load book. Sierra admits that they just printed what THEY read. This error about CZ52 strength can be traced to a 1970 small arms identification publication for the US army. The weakness of the CZ52 can be traced to the very thin chamber and very poor quality control on the metallurgy of the chambers.

 

[thebear101]

Im thinking that you can line up 4 people in armer plating and with my S&W X frame will make one plater of stew

 

[R.W.Dale]

classy post!

 

[Roccobro]

Im thinking that you can line up 4 people in armer plating and with my S&W X frame will make one plater of stew

What in the heck does this have to do with reloading the 7.62x25?

Welcome to The High Road??!?

Justin

 

[Funderb]

The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo
2) the CZ52 loads in the book "Accurate Arms Load Book Number Two" published in 2000. These loads are replaced with lower powder charges on the AA website.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/

CZ52s are weak?
huh. guess I'm a walrus too?

 

[Roccobro]

"The CZ52 is very weak, and should not be subjected to high pressures like:
1) surplus 7.62x25mm ammo"

He must mean the ammo NOT manufactured and for guns chambered in 7.62x25, or maybe even just of the same country of origin. OK, who am I kidding here....

I hear of weak firing pins, and rollers that gall. But not kabooms. Even with the poorly annealed Bulgarian that splits it's case necks with regularity!

Justin

 

[Okiecruffler]

Well I won't quote the crazy loads I use in mine, but I have yet to blow it up.
But if you want something really fun, how about a contender barrel in 7.62X25? Then load what you want.

 

[Clark]

CZ52s are weak?

Yes, weak, despite the fact that it is nearly the only handgun described as "strong" in load books

The thickness of the chamber wall on the bottom where the releif was milled for the rollers is ~.056"

Another problem is the metallurgy.
The old CZ52 barrels we measured were between RC25 and RC35.
The new 9mm CZ52 barrel was RC47.

The CZ52 has the thinnest chamber wall I have found, until the Kel-Tec P3AT came out. It's thinness rivals the CZ52, but has excellent metallurgy, a lower pressure cartridge [7.62x25mm surplus from all countries but Russia is 42,000 c.u.p. while the 380 is registered at 21500 psi].

The CZ52 chamber has a little more hoop stress at .387" vs the 380 at .374".

What does it all mean?
The CZ52s got into this country with thin spots of poor metal and high pressure surplus ammo.

Someone was recently hurt at my range when a CZ52 blew up with surplus ammo.

The CZ52s I have blown up are bags of part from me working up handloads [But I can't hurt a Tokarev or any other semi auto pistol in a work up].

 

[Funderb]

well, that says it, cz52s should be banned and cut into pieces because they are just as dangerous as every saturday night special, and are know to blow up when pushing the pistols limits with loads for sub machine guns and hot handloads. I'm throwing mine away right now.

 

[snuffy]

Hmmmm

Thanks Clark for that info, I didn't know that. I will be careful with my loads for my CZ-52. It's a fun gun to shoot, a real boomer. Just don't want that boom to escape the chamber. There's no reason to fire wall it anyway.