Question about multiple weapons for reasonable force continuum

[NickBallard]

I haven't owned a handgun, but want to get one. I was wondering what all of you know about the reasonable force continuum? We've all heard that if you shoot someone who's unarmed, you have a good chance of going to jail, even if it's quite obvious that they were trying to kill you. We've all heard that guns are serious and that it's an all or nothing thing. Concerning all of this, I've heard some places that it's smart to compliment your handgun with lower force weapons (such as pepper spray and air tasers), so that in court you can say that you tried many various means and none of them worked as the assailant continued to attack, so you finally had to pull your gun out and tell them to leave you alone. Then in other places I've heard that if you carry a handgun, you should not carry lower down the force continuum less-lethal weapons, because the prosecutor will point out that you had other means you could have used, even if it wasn't reasonable to use them. These sources say that jury members are usually not able to understand that if someone's assaulting you with a dagger and your gun is in its holster while your pepper spray is at the bottom of your backpack, it's just like not having the pepper spray at all. Also, I was thinking to myself that if the police find out that you have more than one weapon along the force continuum, the prosecuting attorney may say "This proves he was looking for a fight". I guess I can see it from both sides. What does everyone else think?

 

[ctdonath]

Tools I carry...

Hands: know how to grapple and redirect.
Kubaton: "pain compliance" - particularly to get someone into a controlled/submission position.
ASP baton: from poking & prodding to crushing blows.
Knife: serious damage & disassembly.
Gun: stop him - now.

It's all concealed, and all at hand. "Looking for a fight"? no, looking to stop one quickly and appropriately. If someone is going to second-guess what I choose to use, we're going to have an in-court training class on the whole subject so the jury can make a rational informed choice, with emphasis on "reflective contemplation is not required in the presence of an upraised knife".

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I carry a handgun, sometimes two. On my keyring, I have a short piece of aluminum called a kubotan. And, I practice close quarter combat skills on a regular basis. I don't carry any kind of spray, since I've just never bothered to go and purchase any.

You can second guess what a prosecutor will do all day long, but in the end you have to live with your choices. So, you must choose not only what is legally expedient, but
what is morally expedient for you.
If you feel that you are justified, morally and legally, in carrying different weapons that give you various options of force, then you should be able to live with the consequences.
Conversely, if you play the weapon/prosecutor shell game in your head and only do what is prudent in a legal sense, like only carry a handgun or pepper spray, then you'll have a much more difficult time should you find yourself in a predicament where you need a more dynamic defense. And, if you truly believe that you have a need for a more wide ranging personal defense, it will pain you greatly at the moment you need it most.

Personally, I find the advice of numerous sages over the years from SunTzu to Odin very helpful. In fact, in the Havamal there is a phrase that reads "Do not leave home ahead of your sword and axe, for you cannot feel a fight in your bones or foresee a fight." Good advice, for sure.
And, the aforementioned Art of War has a lot of little gems like this one "So a military force has no constant formation, water has no constant shape: the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius." Replace the words "military force" with "individual" and "formation" with "defensive capability", and there you have it.

Here are two very distinct works from different periods and totally different cultures telling us that we should not leave ourselves unarmed, nor give in to one method of defense. Havamal specifically mentions that more than one weapon be carried with you. The Art of War says that you should have a defensive posture like water- one that does not rely one one single means of defense/offense. And, while these are only two of many examples one can toss onto the table, the point becomes obvious pretty quickly.
I am more inclined to pay attention to the wisdom that has been preserved from the past because I believe it to still be relevant to our current social situation.
So, if some attorney wants to drag me into court for defending myself and second guess my choices of force continuum, then he/she will just have to do that. Having thought it out, I'm prepared to both live through a confrontation and to take whatever legal stuff may hit the fan. Though, I believe it is also prudent to consider legal ramifications well beforehand, so that you can minimize your entanglements.
Really, it's all a matter of what you resolve is right for you. If you land yourself in jail, and you could, that's the only way you'll get any sleep or live with yourself.
But, you do get to choose for yourself. Ain't America great?

 

[hso]

Self defense isn't an all or nothing thing. Whenever possible you should have the ability to defend yourself with whatever's at hand and to whatever level is needed because the gun is not the only solution to every problem.

I will tell you my personal experience.

I've been attacked on the street 3 times in my life. One I was where I shouldn't have been, but the other 2 were reasonably safe public places. In the first instance I had the time to pull a gun, but didn't carry at the time. In the other 2 cases I had no real warning and no opportunity to pull a weapon. In all cases I came out of the attack with no or minimal physical damage and no one had to die. This is only because of the training I invested the money and time to get.

I don't worry about the legalities. I concern myself with the practical issues. As such I carry tools that I can use to defend myself that are always on me and that are always in use. I always carry a knife and a flashlight sized for a fistload/impact tool. I train with both. I often carry an ASP or a cane. I carry a gun. I practice with all of these. Since I have hands and feet and a brain (no smart remarks from the "Peanut Gallery") I practice with those.

Get trained in a practical fighting style. Incorporate knives and sticks. Learn and practice defending yourself instead of depending on a magic wand that spits bullets. You want the gun to be another tool in defending yourself, but not your only tool.

 

[Low-Sci]

I think while its smart to have a skill other than marksmanship with which to defend yourself, I also don't think it makes sense to bust your nuts to carry a weapon for every conceivable level of force. Yeah, you could tell him to stop, then throw a baton, then mace him, get your knife out and stab him and then if he's still coming shoot him, but it really isn't ever gonna happen like that. Or at least, very probably not.

In all probability, you're going to get one chance to determine the outcome of the situation, and you have to count on that one chance to put control of the situation firmly in your hands. It doesn't make sense, at least not to me, to turn your most powerful tool into a backup tool.

Even if all you're carrying is a gun, you have lots of force options at your disposal for an unarmed attacker. The vast majority of the time, just the presentation of a gun is enough to put a halt on the problem. Then you can verbally warn. Then fire warning shots. After that, if your attacker is still on about it, put him down. You were more than fair, you weren't cavalier, and you at that point, should have been in legitimate fear for your life.

 

[TCB in TN]

+1 plus some more

"Even if all you're carrying is a gun, you have lots of force options at your disposal for an unarmed attacker. The vast majority of the time, just the presentation of a gun is enough to put a halt on the problem. Then you can verbally warn. Then fire warning shots. After that, if your attacker is still on about it, put him down. You were more than fair, you weren't cavalier, and you at that point, should have been in legitimate fear for your life."

+1 to this, I have never had to actually pull my weapon, but before I began to carry was in a couple of situations where I might have been legally justified in doing so. These "events" usually happen extremely quickly and most folks would not have the time to think do I pull the spray, the baton, etc. If I am ever threatened again, and I cannot talk/walk my way out of it, I will pull my weapon and go from there. Just like most areas of life, the KISS method of self defense is usually the best. You can't talk your way out, then you pull and the BG doesn't bug out then you go from there. When I was growing up I boxed, did a little MA even though I was a little fellow, I felt that I could handle myself in just about any situation. Today I am 36, I have pretty much nothing left in my left knee. I am carrying about 20 - 25 extra pounds, and have enough sense to realize that even if I was in perfect condition that my self defense is more important than my ego. My job is to protect my familly and myself. Taking the chance that I under estimate the situation and leave myself or my family unprotected is not something that I can allow to happen. I will keep my head, keep my distance, and use the maximum amount of force that I feel is reasonable to ensure I come out of it safe and sound.

 

[TallPine]

If I carried all the stuff some folks think you need, I wouldn't be able to walk out my door with it. Heck, my waist is small enough that there ain't enough belt circumference to hang all that stuff.

I guess that one could wear web gear down to the grocery store ...

 

[Terminight]

No Weapons

You have nothing but what you draw before the fight. I speak as one that has been there and will surley be back and in that I have no intent to gloat. The simple truth is that the opponent will attack and nothing will allow you the time to draw a weapon, you have to counter and do whatever you can to make a clear space between you and your opponent. After that you draw a weapon and make your point clear, hence a gun is no more a defence weapon than a knife, it is tactical, the soft, effective approch. It is to be used only when space is allowed, otherwise it comes down to the body. Carry a knife and please carry a gun, anything else will kill you in the first contact though, I guarentee. Too much weight is lethal, ask any vet and ask any street fighter. You have to move fast and create an opening for the fight ender, be it a blood choke, head bash, knife threat or gun threat. You will have to get physically involved and no weapon can stand in the way of that if you wish to remain defender and not attacker.

 

[leadcounsel]

For what it's worth, the kubaton is a good tool but is an unnecessary redundancy. I have been trained to use my stiffened thumb as a "digital pressure point" much like the kubaton. And, if something metal is needed, my folding knife can double as a kubaton. Drop the kubaton, get a folder knife that doubles as a kubaton in the folded position.

Here's what I normally carry:

Less than lethal:
Blindingly bright tactical light using 3 AAA batteries, $15
Folding knife in kubaton position: Christmas present, retails for $50

Lethal:
Folding knife, above
Handgun

So, I have 4 material practical weapons -- 2 lethal and 2 non-lethal.

But your brain is your best weapon and your hands should be trained as weapons.

 

[Low-Sci]

So to draw something from Terminight's post, I would also say if you feel you might have to draw, draw early. Have it ready before a fight is imminent, and you'll have it when you need it.

TCB makes a good point as well, as to what you end up reaching for when you see trouble on its way. I have to admit- and this is my liberal-college-town-dwelling, non-CCWing, non-LEO opinion of the matter - that if I had a knife and a gun, and I see trouble, that friggin' knife is staying right where it is. I'll most likely even forget that I have the stupid thing at all, because I'm a Powell Doctrine sort of guy. Don't allow for any further escalation of force; escalate to the highest possible level of force first, don't play one-ups.

I think a gun gives you too many options for you to play around with knives and cane-swords if you don't really have to.

 

[bigj8550]

I carry three out of four things at all times. Left fist, Right Fist, Gun, Folding pocket knife. If I am a place that I cannot carry my gun. Then I carry my knife. If I can carry my gun then the knife usually stays in the truck. If I can't handle the situation with these three things I can't handle the situation at all.

 

[Terminight]

"So to draw something from Terminight's post, I would also say if you feel you might have to draw, draw early. Have it ready before a fight is imminent, and you'll have it when you need it."
Low-sci, your a good thinker but you miss my point. You will be freight trained and by the time you are ready to fire or strike he will be inside your weapon and it will be nothing but a distraction for your hand. You need him off of you and if you have a gun in your hand and not his adams apple you wont be able to. You need the ability to manipulate his body because striking just became usless, he is too close for any kind of power move and that includes shooting, stabbing and cutting. You need to create a clear space, where he is injured or at least down and not attacking, this allows you to draw a weapon and use it effectivly. A weapon is usless when he doesnt have one drawn. Weapons are made to keep the opponent away, if hes in too close they are utterly usless.