Question about shooting lead bullets

[Conservidave]

I have several hundred 200g hard cast SWC's in .451 (for .45 ACP) from HSM custom. I have been reluctant to load and shoot these because of some serious leading in the barrel from previous attempts and just need a little help understanding how to best load for this lead.

Do I need to go for higher or lower velocities to keep the lead out? Instinct tells me to go low but I never found anything that seemed to work.
Powders I have on hand are...Bulls Eye, Unique and HP-38 and all are listed in my Lyman manual as useful candidates.

Lyman shows....
Bulls Eye at 4.9 min at 840 fps up to 6.0 max at 909 fps
Unique at 6.0 min at 717 fps up to 7.5 max at 913 fps
231/HP38 at 5.4 min at 769 fps up to 6.1 max at 885 fps

My last work up ended with 6.8g Unique and is where I stopped because I was getting some serious recoil and actually lost my front sight and never really found any accuracy.

Pistol is a 1911-A1

As always Thanks
Dave,

 

[Curator]

Conservidave.

Barrel leading in a handgun, particularly with a low pressure round like .45ACP is almost always due to the lead bullet being too small to seal the powder gosses in the grooves, and possibly also too hard to slug up or obturate. Almost all of my .45ACP handguns (and I reload for several, revolvers and semi autos) require at least .452 and some .453 diameter bullets to prevent leading. The best hardness is generally right about BHN 8 to 10 for the .45ACP. Sometimes your loading technique is also adding to the problem. Shaving bullet sides as the the bullet is loaded, not expanding the case enough, and using a tight taper-crimp can also squeeze the bullet down further insuring it is under groove diameter.

 

[oldpapps]

OK, I don't know 'HSM Custom' bullets. When I looked them up I only found plated bullets. Those look nice. But, I only use lead.

45s don't necessarily need to be 'Hard' cast.

To limit leading, lead bullets have to fit and have a good lube. The size is right, don't know about the lube.
The base of the bullet has to be bulged out to seal the barrel. There is a fancy word for this, obuvorate or something like that. If the base doesn't swell to seal, hot gases slip by and melt the side and the bullet bounces down the barrel. The harder the bullet metal (lead) the greater the pressures have to be.

I've cast my own and used many commercially made/cast bullets. I don't have any leading problems.

With lead bullet 45s, I normally use 231/HP38. My charge is, safe in my weapons, 5.6 grains. I get an average of 875 FPS out of three 5 inch 1911s.

My advise is to pick your powder. Start with the listed 'starting' load from one or more 'known loading sources' (internet forms are not 'known loading sources').

Be safe,

 

[tly999]

I have used the HSM 200 grain SWC in my XD45 with good results. I have switched to another brand of 200 grain SWC due to lower cost, but the HSM bullets were fine.

My load is Bullseye at the lower end of the Lyman range you cited. Make sure you verify your OAL and powder charge independently of what you read here or anywhere else on the internet.

Leading is caused by many things. I suggest you download and read Glen Fryxell's book on bullet casting. Chapter 7 discusses the causes of barrel leading. Very helpful.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Good luck.

 

[Hondo 60]

The best way to find out if the bullets are too small, is to slug your barrel.
(get some really soft lead that's too big for your barrel & with a wood dowel & mallet, pound it down the barrel. Now measure it)

If your bullets are smaller - there's the problem.

Curator's post (#2) is very good, (but change the word gosses to gasses)

 

[Conservidave]

Thank you Gents!

I have much to learn about the lead bullet subject and thanks for the great Fryxell link, lots of good stuff in there.

Slugging the bore is on my to do list.

Dave,

 

[FROGO207]

I will add that once you figure out the problems and get good results there will be a lot of lead use in your future. I expect to see your post asking about casting and bullet molds in the near future.

 

[243winxb]

Bullseye 3.8 to 4.6gr for accuracy, using good brass of all the same lot/headstamp.

 

[Sam1911]

Several things contribute to leading.

1) Slug the bore, as you're planning to do. If your bore slugs to 0.451" then you should be fine with bullets in the .452-.453" range.

2) Next you need to think about hardness, but that's a function of the PRESSURE (not velocity) of your loads. Read this: http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

If you know the hardness of your bullet, you can figure out from the formula given what pressure is most likely to cause that bullet to seal the bore properly. (That word is "OBDURATE".) Then you can go to www.hodgdon.com and check what powders produce that level of pressure.

As a practical example, Brad at Missouri Bullets makes two kinds of 200 gr. SWC. One for bullseye target loads (at 12 BN hardness) and one for Major power loads (at 18 BN).

If you choose the 18 BN bullets, you'd apply the formula -- BHN = CUP / (1422 x .90) -- and get that your pressure could be as high as 23,000 CUP. (Your hardness points should be a couple high for flexibility.) Hodgdon would say WSF, WST, Titewad, and Clays would probably give you the best results.

If you choose the 12 BN bullets, you'd apply the formula -- BHN = CUP / (1422 x .90) -- and get that your pressure might be better at 15,000 CUP. Hodgdon would then give you a whole bunch more powders that will work just fine without leading, if you set the charge to make the right pressure.

As each gun is different, you play with your charge weight until leading goes away, and then you know you're in the right zone.

 

[homatok]

Quote “If you know the hardness of your bullet, you can figure out from the formula given what pressure is most likely to cause that bullet to seal the bore properly. (That word is "OBDURATE".)”

Sorry—no it’s not. The word you want is “OBTURATE”.

From “Webster’s New World Dictionary” (third college edition)
Obdurate: Ob-du-rate: Not easily moved to pity or sympathy; hardhearted 2 hardened and unrepenting; impenitent 3 not giving in readily; stubborn; obstinate; inflexible ……

Obturate: Ob-tu-rate: to stop up-- to swell—to close (an opening); stop up; obstruct—obturation (N) …..

 

[Conservidave]

LMAO.... thanks for the definition there homatok.

Any way, I think that the bullets hardness is likely the cause of my leading. After reading the Fryxell piece and the location of the lead being along the edges of the lands puts obturation at the front and center of my issue. Im not giving up on this but I may have to regroup and find a better suited bullet for my needs.

Thanks
Dave,

 

[Sam1911]

Wow. I do indeed bow to your [strike]knowledge[/strike] dictionary.

 

[Sam1911]

Any way, I think that the bullets hardness is likely the cause of my leading. After reading the Fryxell piece and the location of the lead being along the edges of the lands puts obturation at the front and center of my issue. Im not giving up on this but I may have to regroup and find a better suited bullet for my needs.

I'm having trouble finding any data on HSM non-plated lead bullets. It would be nice to know their hardness as finding the right load will require a lot less trial and error with powders.

Guessing, I'd say it looks like you need a higher pressure powder, but not necessarily a higher velocity. You might have good luck with Clays. But still a guess.

Can you send a note to HSM and ask about the hardness?

 

[Rom828]

I'm a fan of HSM plated. I like them better than Berry's. Now lead only I've never tried. Anyway, I was under the impression that higher velocities were a contributing factor to leading. Please correct me if I am wrong. The only barrel I've ever leaded up was my NAA earl mini revolver shooting lead bullets. About fifty rounds of plated .22 cleaned it right up.

 

[USSR]

As a practical example, Brad at Missouri Bullets makes two kinds of 200 gr. SWC. One for bullseye target loads (at 12 BN hardness) and one for Major power loads (at 18 BN).

18 BHN for .45 ACP bullets is just plain absurd. The .45 ACP (even at +P level) is a low pressure cartridge. The bullets I cast to load for the .357 Magnum never exceed a BHN of 11. If you're getting leading with a .45 ACP, your bullets are either too small or too hard (or both). Just MHO.

Don

 

[GRIZ22]

You say that 6.8 gr of Unique seemed too hot. FWIW I've loaded 6.0 gr of Unique for years with just about any .452 cast SWC and it chronos at 950 to 1000 fps in my guns. 6.8 gr would be pretty hot no matter what the manual says.

 

[tyeo098]

Commercial hard cast bullets are really hard cast.
They need to be hard to withstand the jostling and dinging of shipping.

Or so I've been told.