Question on 1911 safeties

[foob]

Don't know too much about the 1911 internals, so would like to know, why does the 1911 require both grip safety and thumb safety. I know thumb safety prevents sear movement, grip safety prevents trigger movement. As long as one of the safeties on active, is there a chance the hammer can still fall?

Edit: I looked at some diagrams, looks like it is possible for the sear to move even if trigger isn't depressed? Like if it's dropped? Doesn't seem like there's a point for the grip safety.

 

[Walkalong]

You don't NEED the grip safety, but it is for blocking the rearword movement of the trigger if the gun is not in your hand. A nice little feature. The thumb safety blocks the movement of the sear and blocks the fall of the hammer should the sear/hammer engagement fail for any reason. It is a great design and very safe.

 

[Old Fuff]

Back when John Browning and Colt were designing the gun there was some concern that a cavalryman on horseback might have to reholster a cocked but unlocked pistol to free up both hands to bring his mount under control. Browning didn’t think the grip safety was necessary (for that matter he didn’t think the manual safety was either) but he incorporated both because the Army insisted.

The sear doesn't move on its own. The trigger presses against the disconector, which in turn presses on the sear. All three parts are kept in position by a three-leaf spring. The system has been proven to work well by almost a century of use.

 

[XavierBreath]

Old Fuff will probably call me on this, but a 1911 does not require either safety, if it's in the hands of a competent user. It's best to say that the grip safety is a redundant feature. The grip safety was often pinned and rendered useless by past handgunners, and indeed, Novak has developed a 1911 back strap that does away with it.

 

[foob]

Thanks for all the info.

 

[Old Fuff]

This is absolutely outrageous...

I find myself In agreement with X-breath.

Both safeties are desirable, particularly if someone lacks training and practice in using the pistol, but the same can be said about a Glock. My remarks of course presume that the pistol in question was made to original USGI specifications, and has a 5 to 6 pound trigger pull.

Browning's earlier .38 pistols made by Colt had neither safety, and they didn't earn a reputation for having unintentional discharges. William Fairbrain, of Fairbrain & Sykes fame, ordered Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols for oriental officers on the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Force that had the manual safety blocked in the "off" position by a small screw. So much for Condition One carry...

As a personal choice I use the safety lock (manual safety) but have little or no use for the grip safety. The trend today is to make pistols so safe that one can’t use them quickly if that becomes necessary. Lawyers make poor gun designers.

 

[mljdeckard]

One of the writers in one of the magazines told a story about a Mexican cop he met who had two 1911s in quick-draw rigs on either side, trigger guards cut OFF, grip safeties pinned down. Cocked and locked. THAT gives me the willies.

 

[Old Fuff]

Knew of a Texas Ranger that carried an engraved Colt Government Model with the trigger gruard cut back to the trigger itself...

Then there was Charles Askins on the Border Patrol that had both a Colt Government Model and a .38 Special New Service that both lacked the front of the trigger guard.

Neither men lost any sleep... and both lived through a number of gunfights.

 

[XavierBreath]

Texas Ranger 1911

A citizen noted the hammer back on the 1911 carried in the waist band by Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger. The citizen asks, "Isn't That Dangerous?" Charley replied, " I wouldn't carry the _________ if it wasn't dangerous."

 

[ocharry]

walkalong,,, i am not flaming or anything but the thumb safety does not block the hammer,,,as i believe you stated(i might have misunderstood what you said) "the thumb safety blocks the movement of the sear and blocks the fall of the hammer should the sear/hammer engagement fail",,,, it is a sear block and if the sear engagement in the hammer hooks fail,,,,(hooks get broken off,,,sear nose gets broken off) i believe the hammer will fall and possibly cause a accidental or negligent discharge ....i for one like the way ol JB designed the 1911 and i don't think i will change anything he did ,,,now that's just my .02 and YMMV

ocharry

 

[Walkalong]

walkalong,,, i am not flaming or anything but the thumb safety does not block the hammer,,,as i believe you stated(i might have misunderstood what you said) "the thumb safety blocks the movement of the sear and blocks the fall of the hammer should the sear/hammer engagement fail",,,, it is a sear block and if the sear engagement in the hammer hooks fail,,,,(hooks get broken off,,,sear nose gets broken off) i believe the hammer will fall and possibly cause a accidental or negligent discharge ....i for one like the way ol JB designed the 1911 and i don't think i will change anything he did ,,,now that's just my .02 and YMMV

Well, I am talking about how John Browning designed it. I, of course could be wrong about the safety blocking the hammer from falling if the sear/hammer engagement is compremised. That has always been my understanding and the way it is cut and put together I have never doughted it. There is metal on the safety in the way of the hammer falling. It slips into an oval of sorts cut out in the hammer.

Hopefully Old Fluff and 1911Tuner will set us straight.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

William Fairbrain, of Fairbrain & Sykes fame, ordered Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols for oriental officers on the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Force that had the manual safety blocked in the "off" position by a small screw. So much for Condition One carry.

While this is true, it is also true that these men were not to carry their guns with a round in the chamber. They were trained to chamber a round as they drew from their holsters.