Rainier 125 Gr Copper Plated FP in 38 special

[LiveLife]

Lees manual doesn't list a fast burning powder like Bullseye for 125 grain copper plated bullets.

I always try to use the "current" powder manufacturers' load data for the following reason. Many posted on other threads that powder manufacturers and reloading manuals changed load data over the years.

Keep in mind that many powder companies merged and got sold/bought by another. If powder formulation/recipes/source changed, so will the load data (not just because their lawyers told them to) as powder manufacturers will conduct pressure tests on new powder formulation/recipes. Often, the same powder company may have formulation/recipe change if their contract vendor changes source materials. This is the reason why I recommend to new reloaders to reference the reloading manuals for case processing and reloading procedures, but use the most current load data from powder manufacturers' websites or current year load data brochures.

Also, If I can't find lead load data, I use reduced jacketed load data (10-15% reduction) and work up in 0.2-0.3 gr increments.

Be safe and have fun reloading!

 

[LiveLife]

if I had a powder measure I could dial in to .10s of a grain I wouldn't have to sidestep the different powders to get what is listed on the charts and the numbers given here.

What powder measure are you using?

 

[evan price]

at the time all I had was Bullseye but the Lees manual doesn't list a fast burning powder like Bullseye for 125 grain copper plated bullets. Lees only lists slower burning power like Titegroup, Accur#5 and v-3N37. Bullseye is not even near copper plated bullets in the listings. Not understanding everything I need to know, I was afraid to substitute even though you great folks are suggesting loads to use.


...if I had a powder measure I could dial in to .10s of a grain ...

First of all, Titegroup is just as fast as Bullseye- they are both fast powders like 700-X, most burn rate charts put them as close as is no matter. 3n37 and #5 are medium/fast pistol powders like 800-X.

Second of all, measuring accurate tenths of a grain- in pistols- is not really that important. The Lee charts will show an approximate VMD value for each powder and the approximate drop amount from a certain disk opening. Lee allows a healthy amrgin for safety to include variances in powder and manufacturing and it is rare that they drop heavy. Usually they are .1 or .2 grains light.

To be short, you are really, really, overthinking this and making it a lot more complex than it needs to be. Straight wall pistol reloading, and especially .38 Specials, are as simple as simple can be. You don't need to meet a performance number for the bullet trajectory (like rifles) because you are talking short ranges. You only need to be within spec as "good enough" to shoot them in a pistol. Honestly, the 38 Special is such a sweetheart to reload, especially in a simple setup like a plated 125-grain bullet over a fast powder, you should not have these worries.

 

[crooked stripe]

I have a Lee Auto Disk powder measure. I also have micro disc set up for my 32 auto.
I do carry things to far at times. I think reading all the warnings has me intimidated and I want to do things the safest way. I don't know what circumstances would result using a #1 powder and a #5 powder. (powder power scale) I am learning this from you folks and other reloading forums. Just like crimping, all I can do is go by the instructions, then recheck to make sure I have done it right. You can see the results I got and I have no clue where to go from there. I have ordered two more books in hopes of finding more information on this process. I didn't know pistol ammunition was more forgiving than rifle ammunition. I always though a bullet was a bullet. Keep the info coming if you would. I really appreciate it. John

 

[Walkalong]

Here is a thread with some crimp pics. No instructions, but your load books cover that.

With a 125 Gr plated bullet and a light charge of fast powder in .38 or .357 brass all you need is to remove the bell really. A light crimp is good, and will help, but won't make a night and day difference.

About 3.5 to 4.0 Grs of Bullseye should make an excellent light load in .38 or .357 brass with that Ranier 125 Gr TrFP bullet.

 

[Centaur 1]

Walkalong, you're da man. I've just been lurking and trying to educate myself by listening to what everyone else is going through. Post number 37 on the crimping thread that you linked to was awesome. You can talk back and forth, but seeing how long the taper crimp is, and having you show the actual dimensions at the various points along the cartridge really helps me understand a taper crimp. I was so busy trying to "see" a "taper" versus a "roll" at the case mouth that I ignored the obvious. The kick in the butt is that I'm a retired tool and die maker, and I have many thousands of dollars in all sorts of measuring tools in my garage. Thanks for the visualization, a picture really is worth a thousand words.

 

[LiveLife]

+1 to Walkalong's picture threads - "A picture is worth a thousand words" He also has a nice picture thread on determining max OAL.

John/crooked stripe, I also use Pro Auto Disk and you can readily determine the approximate powder charge using the Auto Disk table (table on page 2 is sideways, so do Edit > Rotate Right and the table will turn right side up). If the charge you want falls between two measures, I use the lower charge (0.1-0.2 gr won't make that much difference).

I always verify the charge weights from the first few throws to make sure the powder has sufficiently settled and the charge is where it should be. If I need a slight increase (0.2-0.3 gr), I will use the next larger size hole.

 

[crooked stripe]

What is the difference between my 125 grain copper coated flat points and say 125 grain full metal jacket bullet and 125 grain plated hollow point. I notice the loading is different even tho the weight stays the same. John

 

[LiveLife]

What is the difference between my 125 grain copper coated flat points and say 125 grain full metal jacket bullet and 125 grain plated hollow point.

Nothing in terms of bullet weight and diameter. In terms of bullet nose profile and how far the base of the bullet goes into the case neck to affect chamber pressure, a lot (that's why you should match bullet nose type when using published load data).

Many plated bullets like Berry's and PowerBond have bullet diameter that's between jacketed and lead bullets. Because of the tighter bullet to barrel fit, Berry's recommends that you load their plated bullets using lead load data.

Rainier Ballistics however, advertises their bullet diameter as same as jacketed and you should be able to use jacketed load data. I have shot Rainier plated bullets for quite many years using mid-high range jacketed load data.

Rainier LeadSafe Bullets 38 Caliber (357 Diameter) 125 Grain Plated Flat Nose

 

[LiveLife]

Correction, Rainier/Berry's/PowerBond all advertise their 38/357 bullets as 0.357" diameter.

Berry's 9mm (0.3555"-0.356") and 45ACP (0.452") bullets are larger in diameter than jacketed bullets (0.355" and 0.451").

 

[rcmodel]

Berry's recommends that you load their plated bullets using lead load data.

No, they don't.

This from the Berry Web Site FAQ:

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

rc

 

[evan price]

I have had good results using jacketed loads for plated bullets. I don't push them beyond a normal speed for jacketed, however.

Most load data actually tests a variety of different bullet styles of the same weight and publishes the data that results in a "worst case" scenario for pressure. I know Hodgdon does this. This is because if you choose a different mfg. of bullet, you will not be in worse shape (higher pressure) using their data.

This is when comparing stuff of similar profile!

Basically, if the weight is the same, the diameter is the same, and the amount of bullet inside the case is the same, and the bearing surface is the same, it will load pretty much the same.

 

[Walkalong]

A link to some plated bullet data.

 

[LiveLife]

When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

rcmodel, I stand corrected.

Well, lead load data is often below low/mid-range load data, so you could always work up from there for "light/mild target load"

 

[Berry's MFG]

The reason we ask everyone to start with a mid-range jacketed or lead load data is:

Hard Cast Data - Plated bullets have the same pressure curve as typical linotype hard cast bullet. The same powder charge with a hardcast or plated vs. a jacketed will result in lower velocities for the jacketed. This is because the jacket is a work hardened surface that has a greater resistance in the barrel.

Jacketed Midrange Data - Is a good starting point to work up data for since most of the shooters already have data for jacketed.

We also make a statement to keep the bullets loaded to no more than the 1200FPS mark. I have run our 155gr .40 bullets in my Tanfoglio Limited 10mm at velocities beyond that with great results. We just have to draw a line in the sand since people seem to push the drawn limits.

We have constantly improved our bullet profiles and have added plating as we have gone along over the past 8 or so years. I am hoping to finish testing in our tunnel to see if we can publish a greater fps with our current generation of bullets. As it is there are only a handful of commercially available calibers that would push any pistol bullet beyond 1300fps, and those are long barreled hunting pistols that would not use a plated bullet anyway.

Sorry if I rambled on, let me know if I left anyone dazed and confused