Range of 55 or 62gr. Ammo in 1x9 Twist AR15?

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HGM22

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I'm wondering what kind of accuracy/range I can expect out of a 1x9 twist 16'' AR15. I know 1x7 with heavier bullets is better for longer range, but I'd like to know what I can get from the alternative. Would 400-500 yards be do-able with 55 or 62 gr. ammo?

I'm thinking of going with a M&P Sport if that makes a difference.

Would a 1x7 be more accurate, everything else being equal?
 
Twist rate doesn't really affect range other than you need a faster twist rate to stabilize the Very Low Drag projectiles that are used at longer ranges. However shooting 62gr M855 out of a 1:7 twist won't give it more range than 62gr M855 out of a 1:9 twist.

As far as accuracy goes, in theory you can see an accuracy loss from spinning a projectile too fast. In practical use, I don't notice any accuracy difference between 1:7 and 1:9 myself.

Under ideal conditions, 55gr FMJ from a 16" barrel is going to go transsonic (drop back below the speed of sound) around 600yds+ - which combined with the accuracy of most 55gr FMJ ammo will make it difficult to hit anything silhouette sized or smaller at ranges past 600yds. A 1:7 won't be more accurate (all else being equal) but it will let you use longer projectiles that retain energy better and have better inherent accuracy than 55gr FMJ.

At 400-500 yds, your typical 55gr M193 type ammo is going to print a 12"-20" group from a test fixture (a mounted barrel/receiver that doesn't move at all). So even if you have ice water in your veins, you may still have difficulty consistently hitting targets smaller than 12" at 400yds without using better ammo.
 
I'm curious as to (1) has the OP ever fired an AR, and (2) what's the OP going to be trying to hit @ 500 yds?

Friend of mine borrowed my original AR, a 16", 1/9 Bushy Shorty and, with a high-powered, target scope attached, shot very well @ over 500 yds. Only mods to the Bushy were a JP trigger/hammer and a free-float tube. Friend was shooting bulk 55gr. ammo.
 
My friend and I do long range shooting fairly regularly. We start to have problem with M193 and M855 at around 600ish yards. At that range the accuracy really drops off and the bullets hit sideways a lot. At 500 yards though we can hit my 2/3 size IPSC metal target about half the time.
 
it's the lack of match grade bullet/loading that's hurting you, actually, altho 55 gr bullets are certainly not desirable for use beyond 1/4 mile. the steel capped loads have lots more potential to not be made perfectly balanced/concentric. Try some 69 gr or maybe 77 gr Sierra matchkings, depending upon your rifling twist. The 16" barrel is gonna hurt ya, too. but in 10 seconds, you can push out 2 pins and affix a 24-26" barreled upper to your lower. Even if it's not a $800 match setup, the extra 400 or so fps, with 77 gr bullets, is going to help a lot at 600 yds.
 
I have two main match loads for my 20" 1:9....53gr SMK HP and 69gr SMK HPBT. The 53gr is noticeably more accurate at 100/200 yds, at 300 it's pretty much a wash and past that the 69gr outshines the 53gr. Haven't shot a whole lot past 300 yet but that's what I've found so far (and what I expected).

A 1:7 twist rate doesn't directly mean more range; it only means the barrel is more suited to shoot the heavier bullets you need to retain stability at longer ranges.
 
A 1:9 twist is fine for 55gr, although the 62gr green tip round is on the long side for 1:9, it generally does alright.

IIRC the military considers the M4 with 62gr M855 to have a maximum range of 500 meters. However, it has 100 inches of drop at that range. This is pretty extreme, most people consider the 5.56 carbine to be a 250 yard gun. Maybe 300.

But it all depends on the shooter, the target, the conditions, the rifle, the optic, the round, the shooter...
 
some people "think" that the 12 ga is a 200 yd gun, with slugs. :) The M4 is a lot closer to being a 500 yd gun than the 12 ga is to being 200-yd capable. Same with people who "think' that the 30 Carbine is a 300m rifle. The 30c is a joke at 200 yds, actually. check out the wind drift charts for it.
 
keep in mind there is a difference in punching holes on paper and hitting steel at 500 vs effective terminal ballistics at 500.

while a 223 projectile will travel a few miles if launched at the right angle, it will also shed velocity quickly which means projectiles which are designed to 'fragment' (e.g. m193) may not do so reliably much past 150-250 depending on barrel length.
 
I have an old ruger 22" barrel 1/12 twist. 223 Stabilizes 60 gr. Partition fine. One shot can drop coyote to 235 I know for sure, and based on damage I would say like a neck shot on deer, coyote etc would be lethal a ways farther out. Im talking about a well placed shot on thin skinned target. Now if you are talking armor or center of mass shots on tough critters YMMV.
 
"the M4 with 62gr M855 to have a maximum range of 500 meters. However, it has 100 inches of drop at that range. This is pretty extreme, most people consider the 5.56 carbine to be a 250 yard gun. Maybe 300. "

Not sure where you get the 100" drop @ 500 meters info but that is not correct.

Those who consider the 5.56 a 250 meter gun, don't know how to shoot. I shoot out to 400 meters often with my 1/9 16' bbl carbine. Sighted in at 100 meters, my come ups to 400 is 10 moa, Another 4 moa for 500. Consistent hits on a 20" D target at that range is pretty easy in prone with just a loop sling.
 
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"the M4 with 62gr M855 to have a maximum range of 500 meters. However, it has 100 inches of drop at that range. This is pretty extreme, most people consider the 5.56 carbine to be a 250 yard gun. Maybe 300. "

Not sure where you get the 100" drop @ 500 meters info but that is not correct. More like 16-20".

Those who consider the 5.56 a 250 meter gun, don't know how to shoot. I shoot out to 400 meters often with my 16' bbl carbine. Sighted in at 100 meters, my come ups to 400 is 14 moa. Consistent hits on a 20" D target at that range is pretty easy in prone with just a loop sling.

You are thinking of how low the bullet will strike at 500 with a 25 zero.

I am speaking total drop.

Different thing.

An M4 carbine with M855 will be approximately 16" or so low at 500 yards if it is zero'd at 25 yards. It will also be something like 11" high at 250 yards.

The illustrated version

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And I've seen plenty of people who definitely know how to shoot consider it to be a 250-300 meter gun, for practical purposes. This, in part, goes along with what taliv said. Terminal ballistics plays a role in determining actual practical effective range.
 
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I have a bolt gun with an 18.5" 1:9" barrel and today I was shooting <1 MOA consistently with 69gr ammo. I even shot a 1/2" group at 200yd. Things opened up quite a bit when I switched to 75gr which I think was twist related.

You should be just fine with 55 and 62gr bullets. Probably better with 1:9" for 55gr. 1:8" is my favorite AR twist and the military choice when they make a Recce or designated marksman rifle. 1:7" is really only needed for long tracer bullets and the really heavy all copper bullets (also very long).

Mike
 
If we are talking battle sight zero BSZ, near zero is 25 meters, far zero (point where it crosses line of sight) is about 300 meters with the M855. That's for a 20" bbl but is actually pretty close on my rifle. My come ups from 300-500 meters on my rifle is 9 moa. YMMV.

You graft shows a variance of 30"
 
"the M4 with 62gr M855 to have a maximum range of 500 meters. However, it has 100 inches of drop at that range. This is pretty extreme, most people consider the 5.56 carbine to be a 250 yard gun. Maybe 300. "

Not sure where you get the 100" drop @ 500 meters info but that is not correct.

Those who consider the 5.56 a 250 meter gun, don't know how to shoot. I shoot out to 400 meters often with my 1/9 16' bbl carbine. Sighted in at 100 meters, my come ups to 400 is 10 moa, Another 4 moa for 500. Consistent hits on a 20" D target at that range is pretty easy in prone with just a loop sling.


Correct, M193 drop at 500 yards is roughly 51 inches.
 
Do the improved bzo sight in at fifty yards, and then the markings on the sight will be real close.
 
You will start to have trouble out past 600 yards. Under that, the rifle is generally capable of holding under man-sized groups... the rest is up to the shooter. My AR is a 20", but with 55 grain M193 out of a 1/7 chrome lined barrel with iron sights, it will hold under man-sized groups at 500 yards from a non-rested prone position. I have seen guys do the same with 16" and 14.5" carbines.
 
55 grain bulletsnti 600 yards are iffy at best, and iffier at worst. They justbdnt have the BC to make it accurately. I have watched trails of 55 gr too 600 and at a about 450/500 yards they just spin off into nowhere land.
A 62 grain m855 will make 600 yards from a 20" barrel. 16" barrels are pretty much done by 540 yards.
 
No, a 223 wont travel " a few miles". It will be an extreme exception if it makes it to one mile. On the other hand a "mere" .22 hole in you still messes you up. You won't be making any 600 yd hits after you are struck like that. (not that you could before you were shot, 1000 to one odds!). :) Neither are you going to be running 600 yds closer and hitting anybody. So the fact that a 223 "only" hits at 600 yds like a .22 magnum rifle does at 50 yds is not really a factor, when we are discussing hitting men. Beyond 300 yd shots on game should be apologized for, not bragged about. They mean that you are too lazy/inept to get closer and give the animal a humane dispatch.
 
I used to be extremely aggravated, but now I'm just amused.
In these discussions about the practical range of .223/5.56, there's a huge amount of what amounts to urban myth.
FACT: The practical range of the caliber is limited to the point where the bullet retains enough velocity to appreciably fragment within the target, thus transferring energy to the beast that you're trying to terminate.
This is exactly why I, and anyone who has the remote inkling of a clue about how these things work insist that this cartridge is limited to 250~300 yards.
Try this utterly simple test:
Pick a medium; any medium, like cantaloupes, defrosted turkeys, or whatever you prefer along those lines. Something that has enough wet mass to cause a bullet to upset upon impact, and large enough to indicate the extent of destructive force.
Set one out there at 200 yards. Another at 300, and another at 400.
Use whatever load you've settled on to be your sure-fire fight stopper, and use that same load on all of the targets.
The 200 yard target will be relatively easy to hit, and the devastation will be pretty much as you expected.
The 300 yard target will be notably more difficult to hit, and the degree of destruction will be immediately apparent to be less than it was at 200. In fact, no matter what projectile you choose, something like a melon will NOT "explode" upon impact, like they do at 200.
The 400 yard target will be MUCH more difficult to hit, and will most likely show very little, if any upset. This is because the bullet has slowed to the point where it does not deform.
When you finally do make a decent hit on your 400 yard target, break out your trusty .22LR rifle, and shoot that target again, at close range. The relative damage will be very similar between the .223/5.56 and the .22LR, unless you were using a hollow point with the lowly .22LR. In that case, the little .22 is very likely to do more damage.
This demonstrates that 400 yards is beyond the "effective" range of the .223/5.56. You can still poke holes at 400 yards and beyond, but to very little effect, because the bullet can't possibly deform and transfer energy.
If you are facing a charging hoard of drugged maniacs who are determined to annihilate you and all you stand for, it's a good idea to poke holes in as many of them as possible, from as far away as possible, and hope that it makes a difference. If you're trying to make a humane kill on a game animal, or place a shot that will make that bad guy quit trying to kill you, 300 yards is the working limit.
 
Reg Joe, I don't know your background, but in some sports like target shooting for score all it takes is the ability to punch z hole through paper.
See shooting 600 yards with a 20" service A2 and 77 grain SMK'S is a lot of fun, and they are very accurate. So accurate and with a cannelure still tumble out to longer ranges than 300 yards. That is if you are serving in the armed forces, and get to use the mk262 you might have more experience than me, but I bet I can explode your melon at 500-600 yards with a mk262 without issue.

But back to shooting sports. Higher Power for example. The .223 consistently wins competitions over .308 or .30-06 because using 77 grain bullets that fit the a mag gives great results in all three courses of fire with a lot of recoil. And if you single load 80/90 grain or 75 grain A-Max bullets can shoot an long ways with the sissy .223 round.

So research the mk262 which is a 77 grain Sierra Match King that has a cannelure, and you might find the potency of the .223 to be further than the m193 or m855 wouldnleadyou to believe. Also, as hand loaders the biggest plus is we are not limited to military projectiles, and there are some good .223 bullets out there.
 
I think Joe is talking about Military effective range. A non-fragmenting non-tumbling 5.56 projectile will dispatch varmints quite readily :)

Mike
 
Meh, most people who get shot will cease being combat effective, regardless of fragmentation or not, and will start being a burden on those they are with. You want to do a real test... stand out at 500 yards and let me shoot you with that puny M193. Sound good? Didn't think so.
 
That's just juvenile, henchmen....No, I'm not talking about military projectiles.
No, there is NO - NADA - ZERO projectile that "tumbles". What a very sorry urban myth that prevails even within the shooting community.
What does happen is that the bullet spins about its axis with very little stability. If it hits in such a manner as to upset that stability, it can yaw, which is to say that the heel will follow a slightly different path than the nose. This can also happen if a bullet is simply understabilized, as was the intent with the original 55 gr. bullet in the M-16 with a 1 in 12" or even 1 in 14" twist.
The Russians seek to induce that instability with their 60 gr. 5.45x39 bullet by using a small airspace in front of the lead core, within the jacket.
As for accuracy with heavier bullets just for the sake of competition, that is understood, and it's quite apart from this discussion, unless that's what the OP wanted to know. He asked about what are generally military projectiles though.
I'm not going to dig up the analysis for the sake of this thread, but the military evaluations of their own projectiles can be found. For those, the research demonstrates that the 62 gr. "penetrator" does not fragment well at impact velocities under 2,600 fps or so (just rounding off here), so they rate the effective range from an M4 carbine to be less than 200 yards.
For civilian use, the Nosler ballistic tip is claimed to retain good fragmentation down to 1,600 fps. I've personally made my longest shot on a Prairie Dog using a 50 gr. ballistic tip at just over 700 yards. It killed him, but he didn't splatter, and it took about 18 tries to hit him. My shooting partner that day was a former Marine sniper, using his Colt HBAR, loaded with Speer 52 gr. HP's, which are also great varmint gitters. We each alternated in taking shots until I hit.
 
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