Real black or pyrodex??

[Armored farmer]

I have been shooting muzzleloaders since about 1983. I have a .54 Hawken that I insist on using for deer, and a .32 for small game. I have always used Pyrodex because it is available locally.
What am I missing by not using real "black"??
Is it worth the effort to get some Swiss??
Can I tighten my groups??

 

[GeoffC]

German stuffs good powder as well, runs about $18 for around a pound. I think it cleans up a hell of a lot easier than the Pyrodex, I'm not really sure where the idea that blackpowder is so corrosive in comparison to Pyro..... I'd rather clean a gun thats been running on BP any day than one thats been shooting a substitute... To each his own though..

 

[mykeal]

In general, real black powder can be had for substantially less cost than substitute powders.

 

[revals]

I switched to real black during last years hunting season. I have seen improved accuracy and better ignition especially in the really cold weather (couple of days were -30). I love the real black and will not be going back!

 

[GeoffC]

I've got one question though about the stuff, I've used it and love it in my 6 shooters, and I've burned 90 grain loads in side lock guns with great results, in those I'd never go back to subs.

The question is, can I shoot the 150-180 grain loads in my 209 primer inline remington hunting rifle? Will it still burn all the powder, or will I be wasting a lot?

 

[DutchmanDick]

I, for one, will never use Pyrodex again. I have had guns rust, even after careful cleaning, with Pyrodex, but I've never had a problem with rust after using real black, using identical cleaning methods. Besides, the substitutes just don't work well in a flintlock pan.

 

[MCgunner]

I shoot pyrodex for the same reason, but REAL BP ignition is more positive. If I could get BP locally and easily, I'd swear off pyrodex. I may break down and buy a bulk purchase and pay the hazmat fees some day I've never noticed any excessive corrosion with Pyrodex, in fact, other than the ignition problems even with caps on a side lock, I've not seen a difference in Pyrodex and BP. I shoot 777 in my inline and love it. Less corrosive and cleans up easier and has more pop to it. I don't have a flinter nor do I REALLY desire to go that retro. I'd get one if I could easily purchase BP, though, just to play with. I'd still hunt with my CVA inline (scope and all), though. I don't have a BP season here so I don't have to follow any silly retro only rules for hunting.

 

[Armored farmer]

Alrighty then that settles it....next powder purchase will be real black.
I have ALWAYS had trouble keeping the bore clean during shooting sessions and during storage periods.

Any suggestions on brand of black or where to order from??
I shoot a .54 hawken, .32 squirrel rifle, and a '58 Rem....3f for all?? 2f??

 

[GeoffC]

In the Hawkin and the 36 cal FFFG works real good, I've never gone over 90 grains with actual BP, though I think I'm going to see how my inline does with a 150gr charge this week.

 

[Foto Joe]

Is it worth the effort to get some Swiss??

There are those out there who claim that Swiss is cleaner. I use both Goex & Swiss, the Goex gets used in front stuffers (revolvers) and the Swiss gets used in cartridges. When I first started loading cartridges I used Goex and switched for two reasons. The aforementioned claim that it was cleaner and the fact that Swiss is denser, which allowed me to more easily load historical charges if I choose to.

Let's tackle the "Cleaner" claim. After using both, I can't confirm or deny this. If there is a difference, it's not enough to matter for my purposes. Given that Swiss is more expensive and I can't tell the difference in cleanliness, I've chosen to not use it in Cap & Ball guns, the Goex works great and doesn't hurt my wallet as much.

Regarding the higher density of Swiss, I do choose to use it for cartridges for that reason. Trying to cram 40gr of Goex into a 45 Colt case is doable, but with a density of 11.5% more (my personal calculation, yours may vary) with Swiss it's easier to get what I want.

I think one of the things that you might want to consider is: I personally don't recall on this forum "anybody" ever saying that they discovered Pyrodex and after using it decided that they would never pour Black Powder down a barrel again.

Use what makes you happy.

 

[doubleh]

I shoot Pyrodex because that is what I can get to shoot with. I really can't tell much difference between it and real blackpowder. If I could just pick up a pound or two of black I would use it but I can't.

 

[Sagetown]

doubleh; that was me years ago. I finally got my hands on a pound of real black and liked it. After all the searching and driving for that one can, I realized it is cheaper just to go ahead and order a 5 pound shippment right to my door.

 

[GeoffC]

Sage, down I-40 about 8 miles ur side of Little Rock, there's a awesome blackpowder shop/gunsmith who has all the BP you could ever want, I'm sure there's stuff closer to you, but the guys got about everything anyone could ever dream of as far as BP firearms and shooting goodies... It's called The Muzzleloader Shop...

 

[Rem.222]

After using Pyro for years I tried Goex and will never use a subitute again.

 

[Sagetown]

by GeoffC ~ Sage, down I-40 about 8 miles ur side of Little Rock, there's a awesome blackpowder shop/gunsmith who has all the BP you could ever want, I'm sure there's stuff closer to you, but the guys got about everything anyone could ever dream of as far as BP firearms and shooting goodies... It's called The Muzzleloader Shop...

Interesting. Wish I'd have know that back when I visited Powder Inc. in Clarksville, AR.

 

[robhof]

robhof

I much prefer the real stuff, but my sources have dried up so I'm stuck using the subs til I can find a safe place to store 25Lbs of the stuff. I have 2 flinters and am milking my last Lb of 4f, I prime with it and add about 3gr behind the sub charge and get consistent ignition.

 

[GeoffC]

What's Powder Inc. all about? Guns, and supplies or just powder and such?

 

[JCT]

This has come up before, definitely interestin.....
Pyrodex only came into existence when there became a demand for powder not classified by BATF as "explosive" I believe late 1970's....
Shipping, production, storage and insurance fees went way up due to a federal reclassification, which is ironically, technically false. Black powder is a deflagrant ( it burns ) not an explosive ( they detonate ).
Pyrodex is corrosive, caustic, more hydroscopic and has a higher ignition point. All cons, all reasons not to use it. However, a supply shop needs no special license or storage magazine for smokeless and substitutes ( same federal classification as smokeless ). Wet Black powder can be dried and is as good as new, wet pyrodex turns to slime since it's fructose or sugar based.
Had the BATF put BP into the category of other reloading powders as they should have, Pyrodex would have never come about. Good black powder ( swiss or Goex express ) is made with better woods like willow and alder instead of maple and they burn hotter and cleaner than Pyrodex.
Black Powder hasn't changed much at all in centuries, they got it just about right from the start. It's really a shame it's not much more widely available. Than again, that's why I've made my own for 5+ years now...
I copied the following from Pyrodex wiki;

• Legalities

• United States
Due to property insurance and federal transportation regulations, black powder substitutes also can be transported and stored in interstate commerce in the United States using smokeless powder regulations, instead of the much more restrictive black powder regulations. Because of this, black powder substitutes are thus becoming more commonly available than traditional black powder, which has largely vanished from the shelves of most retailers.

 

[Sagetown]

Good Post JCT !

GeoffC; Powder Inc. of Clarksville has their own WEB Site from which they sell their goods. They may have a storefront by now, but primarily a distributor of quantities of black powder from 5 pounds and up. They also manufacture popular Black Powder Cartridges. They do sell a few hard to find black powder items too.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

My suggestion is that you get together with some pards & order a case from powder inc., or one of the other BP suppliers http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html

Schutzen is a really nice powder for sporting guns. I like it better than Goex.
http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/index.php/distributors

If you don't have some BP-shooting pards, hook up with some cowboys at the local SASS club & order a case.

I like to have plenty on hand so I never run out.
When you buy a case, you can usually get a mix of Fg, FFg, FFFg, & FFFg is you like too.

I like Fg in my 10 gauge and FFFFg is priming powder for my flintlocks.

Geoffc:
Powder inc is just a distributer--no guns.
They make a great cylinder loader for cap gun revolvers though.

KBBailey--I use 3Fg in my percussion revolvers and my .32 squirrel rifle.
I use FFg in my .54 and 20 & 12 gauge shotguns

I use Fg in my 10 gauge.

For cartridges, I use 3Fg in .38s and FFg in .44s and 45s

That being said, I could use FFg or FFFg for everything.

I have used 3Fg in a .54 with good results -- just use less.
I used about 2/3 the amount of my FFg load

--Dawg

 

[Jaymo]

Once you go black, you'll never go back. I like the ease of cleanup with real black.
Plus, I like the smell.

 

[arcticap]

wet pyrodex turns to slime since it's fructose or sugar based.

Pyrodex is not a fructose or sugar based powder.
You must be confusing Pyrodex with American Pioneer Powder and Goex Clear Shot powder since the modern fructose/ascorbic acid based powders came after Pyrodex was developed.
Ever notice when cleaning it that Pyrodex residue shares the same rotten egg sulpher smell that black powder also produces?

Below is an excerpt from Mad Monk on ALR where he says that Pyrodex does have a share of the same ingredients that black powder has.

Pyrodex uses elemental sulfur in with the potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate and a bit of charcoal....

The only one [sub. powder] with any straight historical background was GOEX's now defunct Clear Shot powder that was based on the combination of fruit sugar and potassium nitrate. It has history back into the 19th century.

For history about Goex Clear Shot:

http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/clear_shot.pdf

 

[gl1200a]

Also in Clarksville, is Don, at Clarksville Gun and Rod.
Great guy is the Swiss and Scheutzen powder dist.
He does also carry Goex etc. Great prices.
If your a flinter, try some of his Gator powder.

 

[GeoffC]

Does Goex still produce any powder in Camden, Ar?

 

[alsaqr]

What's Powder Inc. all about? Guns, and supplies or just powder and such

Powder, Inc. sells black powder. They do have some remnants of Pyrodex and Goex Pinnacle powder. Goex Pinnacle was made by American Pioneer Powder. Since Hodgdon bought out Goex the powder is no longer being made.

Goex Pinnacle is my favorite muzzleloader powder. Pinnacle 3F gives me the best groups of all the brands of BP substitutes. It is much cleaner that 777, Pyrodex or BP. I have fired 10 shot groups at 100 yards that measured less than 2.5"-without swabbing between shots. I bought the last two cases of Pinnacle 3F that Powder, Inc. had.

http://www.powderinc.com/blackpowder.htm