Real Id Act

[Lone_Gunman]

This will probably be my last post on this thread, as it seems everyone already has their mind made up, and positions aren't likely to change. I see the government consistently interfering more and more in our personal affairs, and I think that is a big problem. The Patriot Act, the NSA surveillance of phone calls and internet records, etc, are all major problems.

But I remain unconvinced that the Real ID law, as it is currently proposed, is a problem. I will gladly concede that if the government later uses it in nefarious ways, that would be bad. But its bad for the government to misuse any laws, not just this one. I will also concede that the government wants to increase centralized power, I just don't think the Real ID law gives them any new tools with which to do that.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I will gladly concede that if the government later uses it in nefarious ways, that would be bad.

The question is not if, but to what degree. It is a dependable pattern of the Federal Government. RICO, for example, was passed based on a stated need by law enforcement for a more effective way to deal with organized crime, the Mafia dons and their henchmen. Today, it is regularly used to prosecute peaceful abortion protesters, in many cases ruining the lives of those (mothers, the elderly, religious leaders) who merely sought to publicly protest what they saw as the taking of innocent human life. This is the pattern that we observe repeatedly.

Whenever we permit a new power to be assumed by the Federal Government, you can be sure it will be used in ways other than it's proposed purpose, and that to the advantage of greater Federal power at the expense of personal liberty. If it's possible for the Federal Government to in any way use "Real ID" to monitor the American people (and this is not at all hard to imagine), and thus exert greater control, it will be used for that. You can count on it. That's why the power must not be allowed to start with. You cannot wait and see if it will be so used. By then, it's too late.

When you see a thorny bramble sprout up in your vegetable garden, you do not wait and see if it will become a hindrance before you dig it out, root and all. By then it will be too late, as it will have already become an intolerable impedament to your free movement in and around your vegetable plants, and it's tough sinuous roots will have become too deep to be eradicated with anything short of a back hoe. Say good-bye to your vegetable garden. No, it has no proper place in your garden to start with, so you must eradicate it at the sprout stage or not at all. Same case here.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

When you see a thorny bramble sprout up in your vegetable garden, you do not wait and see if it will become a hindrance before you dig it out, root and all.

So, if the federal government decided to pass legislation to standardize CCW license reciprocation in the US by requiring all states to accept other state's CCW in the same manner they do driver's licenses, regardless if the state has a CCW itself, including DC and all US properties, we should yank it out of the ground before it becomes a hindrance?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

So, if the federal government decided to pass legislation to standardize CCW license reciprocation in the US by requiring all states to accept other state's CCW in the same manner they do driver's licenses, regardless if the state has a CCW itself, including DC and all US properties, we should yank it out of the ground before it becomes a hindrance?

If this constitutes a usurpation of State police powers, the answer is yes. If not, then no. I would have to study the question of whether or not this would constitute a usurpation of State police powers before I could provide a more definite answer to your question.

Keep in mind that the following might as well be a law of nature: Whenever we permit a new power to be assumed by the Federal Government, you can be sure it will be used in ways other than it's proposed purpose, and that at the expense of personal liberty.

 

[Luku]

I'm just wondering how far along is kentucky in getting their ID in compliance with the standards in the real id act. I know they received some federal money for a pilot program for the real id act.

 

[LAK]

So ... what's the next likely step some are saying? Waiting up their sleeves?

Of course, their "solution" to another created problem: income tax and the IRS. Yes; that created monster - the IRS.

The hook; many people would accept almost anything to get rid of the IRS and income tax.

While some of our so-called "conservative" friends have been pushing a national sales tax for "all the right reasons" - what they do not address is how the indigent low-income folk who will be exempt will identify themselves at all retail sales register checkouts.

The answer? Yes, something everyone must have and present/swipe at point of sale for each and every purchase. Well, let's see ... I got it! We'll just enter taxation class codes on everyones' R[F]ID cards! Isn't that just great?!! I mean, if your card shows your income is below taxable level, you don't pay sales tax.

But everyone must swipe their R[F]ID card - and hey presto! Now your "less gov" snoopers have a database of every single penny, and item, you buy.

And wait! We'll be able to detect possible terror activity! Oh boy!!!!

"Say, Mr Bloggs, I'm from the OHS. It has come to our attention that you have bought an awful lot of [anything] recently. More in fact than your income could pay for". ... Or; "We would like to discuss the stockpile of rifle ammo you have purchased over the last several months".

Or; "We would like to know how an why you purchased gasoline at so many places over this period of time .. that's alot of miles Mr Bloggs. We see you drive a _____________ that should get about 35 mpg average ..."

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[ServiceSoon]

80% of the people I talk with dont want anything to do with this law, but they refuse to do anything about it because they dont think they can stop it.

How do we put an axe in this law?

 

[Thin Black Line]

When you see a thorny bramble sprout up in your vegetable garden, you do not wait and see if it will become a hindrance before you dig it out, root and all.

The once free range of America has turned into hedgerows of complacency.

 

[RealGun]

Some seem to be referring to prior restraint on the government. Isn't prior restraint the foundation of gun control? How about we wait until something really is a problem or propose conditions in the law under which powers may not be applied.

It seems to me that you can't determine who belongs in this country without reliable ID, and a bureaucracy is going to require a uniform and practical form of ID, the format requirements of which are within their jurisdiction. I believe REAL ID is an essential first step in gaining control of illegal immigration. I support its initial intent. I don't support its misuse.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I believe REAL ID is an essential first step in gaining control of illegal immigration. I support its initial intent. I don't support its misuse.

No flawed logic there, but how about I change a couple words:

I believe REGISTRATION OF ALL FIREARMS is an essential first step (there
will be others in the future) in gaining control of the illegal trafficking of
firearms.....

All in favor

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I believe REAL ID is an essential first step in gaining control of illegal immigration. I support its initial intent. I don't support its misuse.

You don't really believe that the powers that be are actually motivated to control the illegal immigration problem, do you? Therefore, something else must be motivating the push for a centrally controlled ID system for each American.

 

[c_yeager]

It seems to me that you can't determine who belongs in this country without reliable ID, and a bureaucracy is going to require a uniform and practical form of ID, the format requirements of which are within their jurisdiction. I believe REAL ID is an essential first step in gaining control of illegal immigration. I support its initial intent. I don't support its misuse.

The fact that the RealID initiative is being pushed foreward by the same people who support amnesty and open borders does even make you suspect that the purpose of this has nothing to do with restricting immigration? In fact, the most likely use of this ID is by giving de-facto citizenship to migrant workers. They may not be citizens but with their shiny new ID card you would never kow it. THe government could hand these things out like candy if they wanted to.

 

[RealGun]

They may not be citizens but with their shiny new ID card you would never kow it. THe government could hand these things out like candy if they wanted to.

But there is no suggestion to do that, is there? If everything is a conspiracy, let's just shoot ourselves now and get it over with.

 

[RealGun]

I believe REAL ID is an essential first step in gaining control of illegal immigration. I support its initial intent. I don't support its misuse.

No flawed logic there, but how about I change a couple words:

I believe REGISTRATION OF ALL FIREARMS is an essential first step (there
will be others in the future) in gaining control of the illegal trafficking of
firearms.....

Well, one premise is valid and the other isn't.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

One more time -

The danger in this is what it could be used for in the future once it's implemented.

Sure, many entities already have varied information on all of us BUT, they are not ALL tied together YET and you are not required to provide ALL of the information, they already have, in order to purchase goods/services ( mag stripes can hohttp://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/shocker.gif
ld a LOT of information - do you know what's on yours ??) !!

Anyone here remember when firearms could be purchased through the mail ?? Not anymore !
The noose started in '34 with NFA and then it was tighented in '68 with GCA and then tightened again in '86.
There is NO SUCH THING as 'a little bit of government control'. Once the means to 'record' everything you do is in place, the noose will slowly start to tighten ( all in the name of national security, or for your own good, or (spare me) 'to protect' you !!)

'Hey, we'll combine your debit card with your national ID and your drivers license and your medical ID card and .....think how convenient that'll be for ya' Yes, do it, do it !!

Already mentioned how ID (driver's license) was REQUIRED TO BE SWIPED in order to purchase beer. Where did the data go ? How much data & WHICH data was retained and WHY ?? Beats me ( that's why I walked out !!)

How long before, in order to 'gather more data about our customer's buying habits' ( and, shhhh - do more data mining) the 'ID' whatever form it takes must be swiped in order to buy ANYTHING ?
Given the speed/storage capabilities of mainframes - not very long at all !!!

You think identity theft is a growing problem now ?? Just wait, 'you 'ain't seen nuthin' yet'.

Once the data is compromised, through hacking, loss of ID, thieft of wallet ( remember ALL of the information will be in one place - maybe not today or tomorrow but eventually ) getting it straightned out will make today's cases of identity theft look like a 'cake walk'. Every try to get an error corrected with a credit reporting agency of some branch of the government ?? Good luck and Heaven help you if someone ELSE has a name even SIMILAR to yours, or address, or SS# one digit different/transposed or..................

And don't even talk to me about hackproof/counterfeit-proof/copy proof/can't be used by anyone except the 'real' owner. BS !!!
NOTHING that is digitized is that secure !!! http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/angryfire.gif

 

[c_yeager]

But there is no suggestion to do that, is there? If everything is a conspiracy, let's just shoot ourselves now and get it over with.

There is no suggestion that they wont either. If noone is out to get you then why own guns or lock your doors?

 

[RealGun]

There is no suggestion that they wont either. If noone is out to get you then why own guns or lock your doors?

I don't see that as a very good analogy. I have no power of prior restraint on criminals. In this instance, we are talking about prior restraint of the government, having no real case except apparent paranoia.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I don't see that as a very good analogy. I have no power of prior restraint on criminals. In this instance, we are talking about prior restraint of the government, having no real case except apparent paranoia.

Where did you ever get this notion that a free people ought not place a prior restrain on their government? What do you think the US Constitution was intended to be? Nothing less than a prior restraint on the power of the Federal Government. Why? Because the Founders knew that the greatest threat to liberty was unchecked and unlimited government.

 

[c_yeager]

I don't see that as a very good analogy. I have no power of prior restraint on criminals. In this instance, we are talking about prior restraint of the government, having no real case except apparent paranoia.

Hawkeye pretty much covered this, but i think its important to note that our system of government depends on it's prior restraint, that is the entire purpose of the constitution. For example, the freedom to bear arms *could* be restricted in such a way that the people's right to self defense and even revolution was not curtailed, however a healthy mistrust in government resulted in an ammendment that allowed no infringment whatsoever. Not even giving the government the tools to oppress it's people is a founding principle of this nation.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Well, one premise is valid and the other isn't.

In what sense? You argue that real id (a so-called better form of *human*
registration) will control illegal immigration and plenty of people over the
years have said that registering firearms will control trafficking.

What exactly makes your point on Real ID supposedly more valid? If you
believe your hypothesis on Real ID, then surely you also support the same
logic that FULL FIREARM REGISTRATION and all the tracking that goes with
it. After all the only real difference is that one is done with humans and the
other with inanimate objects. If it can be done with humans, then why
not firearms?

You've dug a good hole for yourself here so I suggest more than a one
line write-byte to get yourself back out

 

[Henry Bowman]

After all the only real difference is that one is done with humans and the
other with inanimate objects. If it can be done with humans, then why
not firearms?

I'm against "registration" of either, except for voting purposes. However, a significant difference between humans and inanimate objects is that humans are capable of speaking up and fighting back after being stolen. Other significant differences seen obvious enough to make this a straw argumant.

 

[RealGun]

Where did you ever get this notion that a free people ought not place a prior restrain on their government? What do you think the US Constitution was intended to be? - The Real Hawkeye

You answered your own question. Some are looking for restraints for which there is no provision in the Constitution or are complaining about legislation for which legislators definitely have the authority. We (legislators actually) in effect rely on judges to fill in the blanks, but they often go in a direction that doesn't suit us.

 

[RealGun]

In what sense? You argue that real id (a so-called better form of *human*
registration) will control illegal immigration and plenty of people over the
years have said that registering firearms will control trafficking. - Thin Black Line

REAL ID will directly affect both legals and illegals. Gun registration attempts to control crime by burdening honest citizens, having little likely effect on crime.

 

[Zrex]

ou don't really believe that the powers that be are actually motivated to control the illegal immigration problem, do you? Therefore, something else must be motivating the push for a centrally controlled ID system for each American.

The Powers that Be are using the Illegal issue to gain popular acceptance to the idea of a national ID card. With a national ID card, then they can further control people. Think of all the things they have already said you will not be able to do if you do not have a Real ID card. Now add about 20 things to that list every year and see where it leads.

 

[Ira Aten]

One objection to it is, your very own certified copy of your birth certificate is unacceptable ID, if you lose your "Real" Identification card.

Go down to the County tax office, as I have done to conduct a discussion regarding a transaction which would require the employeed you are talking with, to do a function outside of their normal daily routine in order to resolve an incorrect classification of a property within their appraisal roll database.

Then watch the appraisal district, and tax district information come out the next following year, and see if the same exact problem you were promised would be resolved, doesn't still exist exactly as it was, untouched.

Then do it over again. and allow another six months for them to simply change it. See if it isn't still exactly as it was, after checking six months later, even after obtaining a promise in writing, that it will be corrected.

So for those asking "Will someone please explain why you are against the Real I.D." act, I offer this....The same level of care demonstrated by county tax and appraisal district personnel, will be the level of professionality displayed by the Government employee you talk within hopes of being re-issued a new "Real Identity".

And it it turns out, this level of government employee is in charge of you receiving your "Real Identity" card back, and it takes two to three years to do it, you are going to be one hungry, broke, downtrodden son of a $^*(! before you get your "Real Identity" back.

So God help the poor Schmuck that loses one of these "Real I.D." cards. Because already, according to the Texas DPS office, your birth certificate is not an acceptable proof of identity, to get a Driver's license, since it is a "State Issued" document.