Remington Converson Blows Up

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Now hold on col. Conversion cylinders are made for C&B revolvers. The revolvers are labeled 'BP only' when using the C&B cylinder. Cowboy ammo is what the conversion cylinders are made for. Not all cowboy ammo is loaded with BP. The velocity is kept low to keep the pressure low. The fact of your statement (I really can't hold much sympathy for someone who violates safety rules.) shows me that you really do not know what you are talking about when it comes to conversion cylinders. :banghead:
 
the 'black powder only' warning stamped on the gun is to prevent themselves from being subject to paying out millions in the event that some baffoon packs the chambers full of hot smokeless powder.

The 'cowboy' loads are meant to mimic black powder pressures and velocity but without the mess
 
tom e gun said:
what i am surprised to not have heard from anyone yet was how he used smokeless powder loaded ammunition in a firearm that was clearly labeled "black powder only", or am i wrong in this statement?

Yes, you are incorrect. Nothing wrong with "cowboy loads" that use smokeless powder. My guess is that "cowboy loads" are loaded with smokeless powder more often than not.

tom e gun said:
i have a colt conversion that i fire .45 colts in and thus far have only shot reloads that were given to me or that i got at a gun show and now this story makes me want to be veeeeeeery careful about what i shoot in it from now on.

Yup, you are wise to be concerned about those reloads that were given to you. If the person who made those reloads wasn't aware of your specific requirements for a "cowboy load" then you are treading dangerous waters. Also, even if he was aware there is always that chance that he mixed up those reloads with his other "hot" reloads. Same warning goes to gun show reloads....make darn sure they are correct for your conversion cylinder.

tom e gun said:
if ammo is listed as "cowboy load" what exactly does that mean? perhaps i was under the impression that it was not using smokeless powder which now seems incorrect, if this is the case are there any manufacturers of black powder loaded ammo?

Yup, you are incorrect. The "cowboy loads" will give you a round that leaves the barrel at less than 1000 feet per second. Both smokeless and BP "cowboy loads" meet that requirement. You can purchase BP cartridges. Expect to pay more for them. I recommend folks think about reloading their own. I load .45 Colt with both BP and smokeless powder.
 
Clearly, my .45 BPM loads that use 60 grains of BP are a bit beyond that 34 grain limit. :evil: But how else am I going to get that projectile to go 1300+ fps? :what:
 
the Goex brand is the only real black-powder factory loaded 'cowboy' rounds that I'm aware of. COme to think of it, I'm not even sure it's real black powder.
 
thanks for the heads up gentlemen, and clem, its kinda funny. i have been to the range twice in the last week and shot my .45 conversion 1860 army and both times one set of ammunition that i bought from someone at a gunshow has has a significant number of FTF while the ones i had given to me by a neighbor (one who is a black powder enthusiast and does a fair amount of shooting of BP C&B and conversions) has worked flawlessly. i guess it goes to show you can pretty much only trust stuff you reload yourself or stuff reloaded by someone you know is pretty damn good at doing it. i doubt i will purchase anymore from gunshows after this. is it possible to reload .45 colts without a lot of tools and/or components? i have heard it was a pretty easy cartridge to reload.
 
As Blackpowder is explosive, I suspect the Feds are making it harder to get by restricting it at some point in the supply line.
 
Well out of all the stupid comments my guess is a double load. And the so called "cowboy" loads are just the standard load but smokless and less stress on the gun.
And Tom I would stick gun show reloaded ammo in my .45s as much as I would in other things I find sitting around used and cheep too on a steet corner.
 
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buttrap said:
And Tom I would stick gun show reloaded ammo in my .45s as much as I would in other things I find sitting around used and cheep too on a steet corner.

So you are implying that the warning the manufacturer placed on his colt open top conversion cylinder (750-850 fps max) makes it suitable for all gun show reloaded ammo? Recall, he said he has a conversion cylinder for one of his cap-n-ball revolvers.....

No doubt the blame for the destruction of the discussed KB lies on the owner and not the conversion cylinder or firearm manufacturer.
 
smokeless powder?
Just what is this smokeless powder stuff anyway? What are the ingredints?

It's kinda like blackpowder, only it doesn't smoke, not much residue, and it kicks a lot harsher than blackpowder. It's strange stuff. And instead of 1,2,3, and 4F there is oodles of different kinds.

Isnt that like trying to smoke an unlit cigarette.

Just dose'nt make any sense if it wont smoke
 
I would recommend against beating on the OP too much. Beauhooligan posted this voluntarily and did so with the intent of preventing somebody else from having it happen to them as well as trying to figure out how it happened to him. He's come to the conclusion that it was more than likely caused by inattention on his part and he owns it. Snide comments won't serve any purpose.

Whether this was a double bullet or a double charge is a moot point. What's important to remember is that a momentary lack of attention can have huge consequences.

I have a lot more faith in someone who makes a mistake and admits it than in someone who feels that they can never make a mistake, let alone admit it when they inevitably do.
 
I second your opinion Joe. I have a buddy who is an "expert" in several disciplines, and after spending quite a bit of time with him, I have found out that he regularly overstates his exploits and overestimates his abilities. Consequently, I have chosen not to participate in certain activities with him. I have heard of a few of his close calls, and they have always been chalked up to weather, the inexperience of a partner, etc. In short, he never screws up or gets it wrong. Don't get me wrong - I like the guy, but his inability to acknowledge his shortcomings along with his knowledge and abilities in certain areas make him and anyone near him vulnerable to catastrophe.

Beauhooligan manned up and posted to learn more, as well has help educate others.

By the way, I'm impressed with how well the top strap performed. I had long believed that the top strap would just blow apart if pressures were sufficient to break a cylinder up.
 
Those are some good pictures, & if you ask me there should be some metallurgy done on that cylinder............
 
Originally Posted by buttrap
And Tom I would stick gun show reloaded ammo in my .45s as much as I would in other things I find sitting around used and cheep too on a steet corner.

So you are implying that the warning the manufacturer placed on his colt open top conversion cylinder (750-850 fps max) makes it suitable for all gun show reloaded ammo? Recall, he said he has a conversion cylinder for one of his cap-n-ball revolvers.....

Uh, no I think he was being sarcastic?
 
Zombiphobia said:
Uh, no I think he was being sarcastic?

He could very well be....he forgot the accompanying emoticon...:rolleyes:

...there actually are folks who would stick anything that would fit in the chamber of a gun and pull the trigger so you have to be careful what you tell folks here as it makes for a bad joke. :neener:
 
There was this kid here a few years ago. He was really into 1858's. Any how he went out and bought a conversion cylinder then started reloading. I believe with no experience a few weeks later posted a picture just like that.


Like others have posted if your going to shoot conversion cylinders stick to using Black powder. Same time loading a few cartridges does not make you an expert. i have probably reloaded about 50,000 cartridges for various guns. Its crucial you get some real experience and read a lot about reloading.
 
Like others have posted if your going to shoot conversion cylinders stick to using Black powder.

Absolutely NOT true! Yes a full case of BP will not cause a kaboom, but a carefully crafted smokeless round won't either. If one is hand loading for a conversion cylinder with smokeless powder (like 99% of all cowboy ammo is) then great care must be taken to insure the proper load is in the case.

I feel for the OP. He has lost a good gun and has admitted that the fault was most likely his own. Learn from his experience, and quit making stupid remarks.
 
I talked to Walt Kirst before I started reloading for my conversion. He states that HIS conversion cylinders are designed for modern loads. Having said that, I don't load them up fully, but the manufacturer stands behind the Kirst Konverter.

YMMV
 
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Here's my original post after my .44 caliber '58 Remington blew up. Please pay attention to the loading data I used, and that I was loading the minimum charge recommended in three loading manuals.

****************************

I had a disaster last night. I wanted to go out and fire one round into my big cottonwood tree to celebrate the New Year. I inserted five rounds into my Taylor's conversion cylinder. left the dog in the house, as she is spooked easily, and aimed at my four foot wide tree. When the pistol went off, it was a detonation instead of a gunshot. It sounded like a M67 fragmentation grenade going off. The result was catastrophic. The top three chambers were gone, and the top strap looks like something from the Hunchback of Notre Dame. The cylinder will not rotate and I can't get the critter apart without a hammer. I'll do that, as I want to take those unfired rounds and knock them apart; find out exactly what the powder charge in them weighs. Here are some photos:

blownup58Remington003.jpg

blownup58Remington002.jpg

blownup58Remington001.jpg

The load was mild, a Bear Creek Supply 225 gn RNFP ahead of 5.3 grains of 700-X, which is the starting load in the Lyman manual #49 for a 230 gn lead bullet, with a max charge of 6.5 grains. Speer's manual #14 gives a minimum charge of 5.3 gns, and a max charge of 6.0 with 700-X. The Hornady 8th edition manual gives a load for a 200 gn lead bullet that is minimum of 5.7 gns and a max of 7.1 gns. I did due diligence on my research, and was very careful in the loading process. I thought a minimum charge with a light bullet was the safe way to go. The only odd thing was that the bullet was intended for .45 ACP, so I changed my Hornady crimp die to a Lee taper crimp die, due to a lack of crimp groove. I loaded these on a Dillon 650 XL progressive machine and powder measure that has never given problems previously, and I use a powder check die to confirm a case that is empty, or one that is overcharged. I was building these low pressure loads for shooting with The Outlaws next Saturday, and had only loaded 19 round so far, so I knocked the remaining ones apart with an impact bullet puller. I could find no problem with the powder charges in any of the remaining cartridges. So, all I can say is the old CAS saw that, "Sometimes cartridges with small volume powder charges in big cases go BOOM". I'm very glad of two things. I'm pleased as punch that I'm okay. I'm also glad that this happened when and where it did, as the shrapnel pinged of the wall of the house, and if this had happened next Saturday on the line, some of my posse partners could have been hurt or worse. I've never in the 43 years I've been reloading had any kind of failure, other than bad primers. This has left me shaken. What a way to welcome 2012. :confused:
 
This is what I wrote after a little contemplation and study...

I've been loading and reloading since I was 16, and at age 59, I have a bit of experience under my belt, along with a degree in engineering. With that in mind, I've been thinking and talking to others about this, and there are several possible causes. The first possible cause is an accidental over charge of powder. I have a powder check die on both of my Dillon 650XLs, but a distraction could have caused me to miss the high pitched electronic tone. When in our modern lives are we 100% free of distraction? The barrel was clear, both before and after the shot, so obstruction is out as the factor. Another cause could be metal failure in the conversion cylinder; it was the first round that was fired through it. The cylinder is made from 4140 steel, and the cap assembly is made from 4150, and they are proof tested to SAAMI standards for standard velocity ammunition. Another is the curious, but not well defined, occurrence of a small powder charge being ignited in a large cartridge case, somehow causing a detonation, rather than the normal progressive burning of smokeless powder; blowing up the piece. Many respected gun writers, from Charles "Skeeter" Skelton to Mike Venturino, have tried to come up with an answer for this, and failed. This remains an unsubstantiated event, and should only be considered when all other possible causes are relegated to the trash bin. To the double bullet theory; I have to feed my bullets one at a time, by hand, in my 650XL progressive reloading machine, and for one cartridge to end up with two bullets would mean an empty case goes by the crimp die and falls into the tray, scattering powder everywhere; that did not happen. The bullets that I use come from Bear Creek Supply and are molybdenum disulphide coated, so there is no wax lube to build up to trap a slug. I spoke to the folks at Taylor's today and the conversion cylinders are not warrantied when used with reloaded ammunition, which if you read the fine print, you will find in the flyers included with guns from many major makers. Also, Taylor's does proof the cylinders with SAAMI .45 Colt proof loads, so the misconception that these cylinders are only safe with black powder it just that, a misconception. Smokeless powder is built on two compounds, nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. Some powders use one compound and are called "single based", others use both compounds and are called "double based". Smokeless powders has been around for well over a century and is safe when used properly. Abandoning smokeless powder because nitroglycerine is explosive, in the pure state, is simply silly. We might as well give up gasoline powered automobiles, as gasoline is flammable in the liquid state, and explosive as a vapor. Black powder is an explosive, and cannot be shipped in any way other than by truck. I have seen other guns blown up in my time. They were all muzzeloaders, using black powder. Some guys just think that a gun barrel can be filled with BP, a ball seated (but not completely on the powder), and that it's all good. Nothing can be more wrong. This leads to split barrels and chunks of the breech flying in all directions. I was well along to becoming a member of the American Mountain Men, the hard corps pre-1840 brigade, until I was told I'd have to lose my big safety eyeglasses and trade for watch crystal versions.
When it comes down to it, the most likely cause, by Occam's law (that being the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false) is that somewhere I screwed up; operator or "Pilot" error. Anyway it goes, I'm out a pistol and cylinder, which is trivial compared to losing an eye or having to have my trigger finger sewn back on. I'll take Harry Truman's position and say, "the buck stops here", with me, and be glad there was nothing wounded other than replaceable steel.
 
Thanks for sharing this Beauhooligan!!

I am an inexperienced hand loader and I certainly only ever use BP just for the simple reason I know that I could make a deadly mistake.

I recently bought some Winchester Super X Target rounds, 255 grain / 860 fps just because they are readily available nearby.

Now I'm wondering if these factory loads might even be pushing it a little :(
 
I've always wondered about proofing - how exact are the proofing methods? Can proofing weaken a cylinder, especially if the proofer screwed up?
 
Beauhooligan thanks for sharing your experience and your last post. It is informative and educational and I'm sure we're very happy for you that all of YOU is still intact after this incident, and that nobody else, animal bystanders included, were not within the blast radius when this happened.
 
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