Retaining a "good" lawyer

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Intune

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No, I'm not in trouble. However with all the discussion pertaining to post-shooting actions I realize that I have been remiss in not obtaining the services of an attorney BEFORE a worst case scenario. Are there websites catering to pro RKBA types of attys? Any referrals for a good one in the Nashville area? Additionally, what is my procedure if the shooting occurs while on the road in another state, yellow pages?

Thanks, Sheepish in Seattle.
 
Are you sure you want an attorney?

Looking in Black's Law Dictionary, 3rd Edition, page 937 under the Latin phrase, In Propria Persona , "In one's own proper person. It is a rule in pleading that pleas to the jurisdiction of the court must be plead in propria persona, because if pleaded by attorney they admit the jurisdiction,as an attorney is an officer of the court , and he is presumed to plead after having obtained leave, which admits the jurisdiction."

Perhaps that's why 'they' insist that you have an attorney! After all the fact that you hire or accept an attorney admits the jurisdiction of the court!

This is one thing that I never do if I'm trying to protect my natural, inherent and inalienable rights! Once they've acquired jurisdiction it's much more difficult to protect them! Just the opinion of a Freeman, Sui Juris! :banghead:

If in fact I was only arrested for exercising a right, not having committed a 'real crime' (a real crime being one committed that harms another Human Being, their rights or property) the last thing I would want to do is give their 'Legislative Tribunal' jurisdiction by hiring or accepting an attorney! I was informed on February 2, 1994 by Judge Donald L. Sanderson in 2nd District Court, Hillsdale County, Michigan that I was in fact not in a Constitutional court, so I like to call them 'Legistative Tribunals'! :evil:
 
<sigh>


Another one. Quoting Blackstone's Law dictionary as if it had the force of law.


Not reality.
 
It's Black's Law Dictionary

>scratching my head<

Of course, Black's Law Dictionary doesn't have 'the force of law', but as your signature puts it, 'Words matter'! I'm merely defining what words mean, if a word's meaning is not defined how can it be discussed? It is a fact that an attorney is an officer of the court, it is a fact that Black's Law Dictionary states that by hiring or accepting an attorney you have admitted the jurisdiction of that court! It is also a fact that if you post bond, you have granted the court jurisdiction, read the complete bond form!

I can't remember whether the United States Supreme Court uses Black's Law Dictionary or Bouvier's Law Dictionary as their legal dictionary, but it one or the other! I have 3 different editions of Black's and a 2 volume set of Bouvier's (1895 I believe).
 
LOL...

Just don't bring up the gold "Admiralty Fringe" on the U.S. flag, if there is one in the courtroom.

That never goes over very well. :D
 
Intune,

You might email/write/call a local gun club with a decent membership and ask if there are any attorneys as members. Also, you could call the local Republican Party and ask for a reference (not a guarantee that they are pro-RKBA, but much better chance than the Dems). Perhaps the best advice, though, is to find a good family attorney and ask them specifically about their knowledge of criminal and Constitutional law.


suijuris,

You're too funny.
 
It is a fact that an attorney is an officer of the court, it is a fact that Black's Law Dictionary states that by hiring or accepting an attorney you have admitted the jurisdiction of that court!


Black's Law Dictionary (or any other) can state whatever it likes. That ain't law. It is only a legal reality if there is a LAW somewhere that has been passed by a body that has authority to do so. Black's Law Dictionary is not such an authority. It's just a dictionary.


But neither your posts nor my (probably) wasted attempt to point out the absurdity of the Freeman position has anything to do with the topic of this thread, so I'll say no more about it here.


And I'll leave the admiralty fringe alone, too! :rolleyes:

(It's probably got something to do with those gals runnin' around outside...)
 
I never did buy into that 'gold fringed Admiralty flag' crap! I know there were alot of people who did back in 1993 when I started down this road. Nevertheless for a court to lawfully proceed they must acquire both 'personum' and 'subject matter' jurisdiction and like I said I don't personally believe the 'gold fringe' has anything to do with it!

Quartus,

I don't wish to 'highjack' this thread any further, but will add this to my post. You said, 'But neither your posts nor my (probably) wasted attempt to point out the absurdity of the Freeman position ....."

Of course I suppose the 'absurdity of the Freeman position' applies to those who founded this country. :confused: I think they actually believe in that 'absurdity'! :banghead:

As far as, "It's just a dictionary" goes, does that mean that 'words matter' doesn't apply here? :confused:

By the way do you think Indiana's Legislature was delegated lawful authority by Indiana's Bill of Rights to regulate the RKBA? :evil:

WYO,

On my first post on this thread, I said assuming that I was only exercising a right (which does not include 'killing' someone unlawfully) and not committing a 'real crime' I would do such and such .....
 
I will paste in some paragraphs from my prior post at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=137980
“A lawyer does not have to be gun friendly to do a good job for you. I bet Johnny Cochran is not weapon friendly, but he sure was effective for OJ. Trying to find a lawyer out of the phone book after you are in jail is a bad way to initiate contact--would you expect someone to get out of bed and start making all the calls you need made without knowing a thing about you other than what's on a booking sheet and what you say from lockup?

â€The best thing to do is start asking around. If you know any lawyers at all, ask them who they would call if they got in a jam. Also, my belief is that it is best to have a relationship with the lawyer before the problem arises. I'm not necessarily talking about a consultation, but an acquaintance relationship from seeing them while at civic, school, church, or sporting events, or while sitting on the bench watching your kids play baseball, etc. What you need is someone willing to go to bat for you in the "special case" ways, not just the "don't talk to police, and I'll see you in jail on Monday" ways. That doesn't usually happen without someone willing to personally vouch for you.

â€You also could ask police officers for referrals. They spend a lot of time in court dealing with defense lawyers, and they have a good handle on who they would like to represent them if they got into a justified shooting.

The fact that you engage counsel, who does nothing more than provide advice, does not constitute consenting to jurisdiction. Once the long arm of the loi puts the habeas grabus on you, you always can challenge jurisdiction, although the fact that you were in a locale and shot someone is going to doom that challenge. BTW, a pleading is a pleading, whether it’s made by in proper person or through a paid mouthpiece.

As far as traveling is concerned, your retained counsel can do a search for someone in the area, and may even be able to do some preliminary things for you without being admitted to the bar of the state in which you are traveling. You have enough stuff to worry about if you get in a jam. Talk to your primary lawyer and let him or her find you another one.
 
Oh fahchrissake!

You can wave strange books and documents and quote obscure latin all day long, but Sheriff Bubba is gonna keep your butt locked up until some lawyer tells him otherwise. That's the way life is. Deal with it.
 
Do you have an attorney currently?

The firm that handled my wills and all other legal matters, has both civil, and criminal lawyers. They also have the knowledge that they don't know everything but try to know somebody that can fill in the blanks. Most attorneys can refer you to a specialist.

If I find my butt in jail I'm calling the attorneys that know me even if they aren't criminal lawyers. They can hash out who to bring in after I'm home.

And if I find myself in jail in the midwest (not likely) I'm callin El Tejon.
 
Jerry Gee, Sheriff of Monroe County, Kentucky didn't lock my son's butt up after he served deptuy Darrell Ford 'Constructive Notice' back in July! As a matter of fact my son got an apology from deptuy Ford for unlawfully disarming and searching him!

The text contained in that Constructive Notice isn't from some strange book or document,

it's from Kentucky's Bill of Rights, Section 1, Number 7! Don't need any lawyer to do my legal work either, do all my own! I've pretty much posted on this forum how my life's been for the past ten years and I have found a different way to deal with it!

Alot if not most of today's legal system is base on using 'Latin' and in part is based on Roman civil law.
 
He who represents himself has a fool for a client;)

Wouldn't dare represent myself.
 
Like I told Judge Donald L. Sanderson when he asked if I would be representing myself today in his court, "I can't represent myself, I am myself! Donald enjoyed a brief moment of levity, but actually I was quite serious!:D
 
Worst case = get a lawyer after the fact.

Best case = never need one.

Middle of the road? Be in touch with those in the know & get one when you need it. Wouldn't hurt to have one available to forestall any "legal action" (i.e. spending tinme in jailwhile waiting a "decicision" of some sort.)

I was lately in need of a lawyer for an incident - a gun-related incident.

I checked with our local most pro-gun advocates & their recomendation (after an interview - always interview your lawyer/s!) turned out I wouldn't have used that AH for any amount of money.

I got/received several otherr recommendations, interviewed them all & settled on one whoIi thought best to represent my case.

As it was, wouldn't have mattered in any case regards the immediate "suspession of liberties." Didn't get to make a call for 7+ hours anyway ...

Ahem..
 
I wouldn't waste the money.

Spend it training to do the right thing.

Don't drink with a gun.

Don't be Rambo.

I don't mean to sound contrite. However, I think you will only line a parasite's, sorry, lawyer's pocket and not do anyone any good (except to feed the parasite).

Besides. Do you plan on shooting someone? Is that why you need a parasite (lawyer)? It may seem that way in the paraniod mind and/or to a jury.
 
Having legal representation at hand before an incident ocurrs [ when it's too late to be thumbing the yellow pages for an unknown ] is prudent whether you care a ccw holder or not.

I always tell the wife "A little forethought goes a long way".

Have a plan, then have a backup plan in case #1 goes south. No jury or DA or judge will think anything about your forethought except "gee, that guy knew enough to have forethought before the fact" [ most don't and consequently suffer more needlessly than they would have had to otherwise ].

Brownie
 
"Perhaps that's why 'they' insist that you have an attorney! After all the fact that you hire or accept an attorney admits the jurisdiction of the court!"

Actually that statement is flat wrong. People can and often do hire an attorney to make a "limited appearance", which by definition is an appearance specifically for the purpose of contesting jurisdiction. If you show up in person, then you just may get tagged with service as you walk out of the courtroom (if the issue is personal jurisdiction/service of process) - that won't happen if you hire an attorney to represent you in a limited appearance. Playing a $hithouse lawyer as you do, Sui, is all well and good, unless you actually get your tit in a ringer; then you'll probably be sorry.

Having said that, yes you can litigate darn near anything Pro Se (without an attorney) - 999 times out of a thousand, though, this is only done if one cannot afford an attorney, or if one is very stupid. On rare occasions it might be a good idea to be pro se, if one is an attorney himself or is very, very versed in the applicable law and procedure.

If you don't have a lawyer already retained for a contingency, at least make sure you have a "rainy day fund" for the hiring of the lawyer. In fact, the latter is better, as the rainy day fund can be gathering interest (money market, cd, something fairly liquid), whereas if you retain a lawyer for a contingency, you will make little or no interest off the money the lawyer is holding on an indefinite basis. However, it's not a bad idea to introduce yourself to an attorney. I would join a gun club and ask members if they know of another member who is an attorney who practices in the criminal defense area (this is the area where gun issues come up, mostly). I'm a lawyer, but not in that area. A referral service would be nice, of course - I'm sure the NRA will have someone on their list for your area - may or may not be a *good* lawyer though - doh! That must be determined by researching on a local basis, among those from referral services.
 
Jury duty is a good time to scout lawyers.
When I served recently I met a few lawyers and and talk to them while waiting for Voire Dire. I thought I had found a particularly good one while talking to him and he seemed like he picked a good jury, but after seeing the defense he put on (and the subsequent conviction by we, the jury) I tore up his card. Nothing like seeing them in action.
 
Futo Inu,
I posted, "Perhaps that's why 'they' insist that you have an attorney! After all the fact that you hire or accept an attorney admits the jurisdiction of the court!"

You posted, "Actually that statement is flat wrong."

My post was based on the definition given in Black's Law Dictionary, 3rd Edition, page 937. If my statement quoting Black's is flat wrong then you'll have to take that up with Black's Law Dictionary! What's your basis for stating its "flat wrong"? Again Black's states, "......because if pleaded by attorney they admit the jurisdiction, as an attorney is an officer of the court, and he is presumed to plead after having obtained leave, which admits the jurisdiction." If this is 'flat wrong', then why is it in Black's Law Dictionary?

When I filed my Motion to Dismiss in 2nd District Court, Hillsdale County, Michigan I filed it as 'appearing specially and not generally or voluntarily.'

You posted, "Playing the '$hithouse lawyer as you do ....."

Let's see now, I was arrested for failure to get a building permit, did my own legal work, after picking the jury, and opening statements, Judge Sanderson called for a recess, the assn't Prosecutor, Neal Brady asked to speak with me, he stated that after hearing my opening statement he thought that I had a good case and just might win it, he then stated that if I were willing to pay the $14 they would drop all the charges against me. I told Mr. Brady that I couldn't do that, I have principles and even if I lost that day I would not pay the $14. We finished the trial, I was found guilty, fined $200, 6 months probation, and ordered to get in compliance with the building code. I told Judge Sanderson to his face as he sat on the bench that I would not pay the $200 and would not get in compliance with the building code by purchasing that $14 permit! When asked to sign the probation order, I refused because I didn't agree with the terms of the order! I never did pay that $200 fine or get in compliance with the building code or abide by any of the terms of the 'probation order' that I never agreed to or signed! When I was arraigned for 'probation violation' in September of 1994, Judge Sanderson asked me if I was in compliance with the buildling code, I replied absolutely not! As I posted before, his exact responce was,"for the purpose of what we're doing here today, we're going to say that you are in compliance, probation terminated." Now that's what I call Orellian double-speak!

I've already quoted the certified court transcript regarding my 2 minute trial for 'driving' without no operators license, no registration and no insurance, so no point in posting that again. When I filed my 'Motion to Dismiss' pro se on the felony charge of 'resisting and obstructing' a police officer, the felony charge was dismissed by Judge Sanderson, the fingerprint refusal charge was also dropped by Michael R. Smith, Hillsdale County Prosecutor. Was all this just playing a @hithouse lawyer? I think my 'tit' was really in a ringer on that felony charge of 'resisting and obstructing', don't you? But I knew the correct paperwork to file to beat that frivolous charge!

You posted, ......."this is only done if one cannot afford an attorney, or if one is very stupid." Money had absolutely nothing to do with my not hiring an attorney! Was I stupid? Well I think my ability to defend myself, even on that felony charge, speaks volumes all by itself!

I'm not a lawyer, don't speak legaleze and I can only relate my personal experiences with the court system! What I've done worked for me, I haven't been arrested since September of 1995, so what can I say? I do have the feeling that you are an attorney, or a prosecutor, or a judge. What I've done isn't just the ramblings of some madman, I can verify everything that I've posted about! I absolutely feel like I was more than able to hold my own against 'the court system'!
 
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Do 'words matter'?

For any and all who posted on this thread about Black's Law Dictionary check out:
http://www.professional-books.com/product/0314257918/Asinsearch/6/

It seems that some people rate this book at 5 stars!

Quoting from Black's Law Dictionary, Preface to the 1st Edition, "The dictionary now offered to the profession is the result of the author's endeavor to prepare a concise and yet comprehensive book of definitions of the terms, phrases, and maxims used in American and English law and necessay to be understood by the working lawyer and judge, as well as those important to the student of legal history or comparative jurispredence."

Oh, by the way Quartus, you use the signature "words matter' , so in the case of legal definitions does your signature apply?
 
greyhound,

Which flag is displayed in the courtroom has absolutely nothing to do with my natural, absolute, inherent and inalienable rights! Well maybe if the 'Jolly Roger' was flying off the mainmast I might think otherwise! But gold fringed, nah, that's not relevant to me or my rights! I still say it's all about jurisdiction! :banghead:
 
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