Rethinking my bullet choice

[Morrey]

I am hand loading for my Cooper .30-06 and over the summer developed some really accurate moderate velocity loads using Hornady ELD-X 178 grain hunting bullets. I was well under .5 MOA so this really clouded my vision as to what the terminal performance of a hunting bullet is supposed to do...harvest game humanely, effectively and quickly.

My typical quarry is white tail deer and feral hogs with both typically topping at the 200 lb mark. I set my feeders up to make 125-150 yards shots. Hogs sometimes weigh a bit more than 200, deer about 200 as a max. I harvested several of both species this year, and for the first time in ages, I had to track each of these animals for as much as 150 yards. Might not sound like much but in the briar filled swamp basins I hunt in, it seems like miles. My wife also took a boar and had to track it as well. I'll be honest to say with one exception on a nice buck, these were behind the shoulder shots that took out vital organs, but didn't destroy vertebra or bone structure. I noted these bullets went clean thru the animals and the exit wound was darn small so I don't think they expanded too much. Very little expansion and very little shock factor.

I suppose this is a Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge debate, but I need to rethink my bullet selection. Deer season is out but hogs are in year round in SC now. Sacrificing accuracy will happen, but how about a 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunter bullet with a flat base? I am open for bullet suggestions from other loaders who shoot similar sized animals at similar distances.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

How about some partitions, accubonds or even interlocks. 165 grain intelocks shoot good for me out to at least 300 yards and do a number on whitetails. Never shot a pig, but that's why i mentioned accubonds since they are a little tougher than the interlocks.

 

[horsey300]

In my experience you'll not sacrifice accuracy with the prohunters, and they will do EXACTLY what you are wanting, they stay tough at muzzle, and still start expanding at lower velocities if you're feeling froggy. I posted about the effects of a prohunter on a deer at 50 yds out of a .243 on another thread and just did a low velocity review of them on a frozen pumpkin at 500yds and each bullet was right where I wanted it, not just close enough. Those are exit holes, they're spaced intentionally to show expansion attributes at 1800 fps, groups can be demonstrated another day if you'd like. The prohunter is my idea of the best game bullet for everything you intend to accomplish. ETA the pumpkin measured 7"x5.5".

 

[Morrey]

In my experience you'll not sacrifice accuracy with the prohunters, and they will do EXACTLY what you are wanting, they stay tough at muzzle, and still start expanding at lower velocities if you're feeling froggy. I posted about the effects of a prohunter on a deer at 50 yds out of a .243 on another thread and just did a low velocity review of them on a frozen pumpkin at 500yds and each bullet was right where I wanted it, not just close enough. Those are exit holes, they're spaced intentionally to show expansion attributes at 1800 fps, groups can be demonstrated another day if you'd like. The prohunter is my idea of the best game bullet for everything you intend to accomplish. ETA the pumpkin measured 7"x5.5".

WOW! When they say a picture paints a thousand words, you made a heck of a case for bullet performance with the Pro-Hunter. I plan to do some load development with IMR 4350 and 4064 powder pushing the 150 flat based Pro Hunter. My previous testing with the Cooper '06 shows best accuracy comes from near max load velocities, so back to the range for me to test the 150 SPT.

 

[Varminterror]

Did you recover any jacket fragments on the deer you killed with the ELD-X's? Like the A-max, SST, NBT, BST, etc, it's really common to get a small exit with tipped pills, because they tend to violently expand and shed a lot of bullet mass within the animal. Dropping deer DRT is much more about hitting high near the spine more than anything else, and I would NOT say a small exit is any kind of indicator of failure to expand with a tipped bullet, so I'd have to ask - where were your bullets placed? What did the vitals they hit look like? Did you find any bullet fragments in the wound cavity?

 

[Morrey]

Did you recover any jacket fragments on the deer you killed with the ELD-X's? Like the A-max, SST, NBT, BST, etc, it's really common to get a small exit with tipped pills, because they tend to violently expand and shed a lot of bullet mass within the animal. Dropping deer DRT is much more about hitting high near the spine more than anything else, and I would NOT say a small exit is any kind of indicator of failure to expand with a tipped bullet, so I'd have to ask - where were your bullets placed? What did the vitals they hit look like? Did you find any bullet fragments in the wound cavity?

 

[jmr40]

I think you may be overthinking the problem and looking for the solution in the wrong place. You say moderate velocity loads. What velocity?. The ELD-X is a hunting bullet and while some bullets may work slightly better than others there is no reason to think this is a bad bullet. Most of the reports I'm reading indicate that it performs on game much like the SST which has a reputation for rapid kills, but often poor penetration on larger game shot at bad angles.

With hunting bullets speed kills. Often people do get caught up with bench accuracy at the expense of enough bullet speed to reliably get bullet expansion. A lighter bullet shooting faster may help, but simply shooting the one you have faster might do the same thing. It could just be bad luck. I've seen some animals do strange things after being hit. Sometimes they just lay down and die, other times with the same shot location they run quite long distances.

 

[Morrey]

I agree totally. The deer went to the processor, and the one I hit in the chest facing me I was there when he was opened up. The entrance wound was to the right of the breast bone and the exit was behind the shoulder. To the best of my looking, I didn't see bullet fragments but that certainly does not mean they weren't there. All of the animals were recovered and none were lost which is the good thing. I simply had to search for them, but I am going to say this is largely my fault due to poor shot placement. All the shots were taken quite late right before the legal shooting time was over (almost dark), meaning I took shots in the "safe" mid-section instead of threading the needle with shots that are more instant drop shots. I fault myself for this. Also, I am at least considering the ELD-X is designed for hunting situations different from mine, so it may be quite possible I need to review my bullet choices. Maybe higher shock, higher expansion at lower velocities and shorter distances? Probably a combination of all the factors we are discussing including shot placement being the most critical.

 

[Morrey]

I think you may be overthinking the problem and looking for the solution in the wrong place. You say moderate velocity loads. What velocity?. The ELD-X is a hunting bullet and while some bullets may work slightly better than others there is no reason to think this is a bad bullet. Most of the reports I'm reading indicate that it performs on game much like the SST which has a reputation for rapid kills, but often poor penetration on larger game shot at bad angles.

With hunting bullets speed kills. Often people do get caught up with bench accuracy at the expense of enough bullet speed to reliably get bullet expansion. A lighter bullet shooting faster may help, but simply shooting the one you have faster might do the same thing. It could just be bad luck. I've seen some animals do strange things after being hit. Sometimes they just lay down and die, other times with the same shot location they run quite long distances.

JMR40, these ELD-X loads came in at 2650 fps on my chrono as an average. I pushed some up close to 2850 during development but the groups opened up too much. This was a bit different since most other bullets I tested seemed to like the near max velocities. And I agree that I have seen a deer run 200 yards when his chest cavity looks like a buzz saw went thru it. Several of the same scenario in the same season leaves me scratching my head.

 

[horsey300]

How about some partitions, accubonds or even interlocks. 165 grain intelocks shoot good for me out to at least 300 yards and do a number on whitetails. Never shot a pig, but that's why i mentioned accubonds since they are a little tougher than the interlocks.

The eldx is hornady's ABLR unless I'm mistaken, I've heard good things about accubond but if bonded failed to perform to op hopes/expectations, then changing colors of the box won't fix everything, if the pro hunter doesn't work out for some reason, then I second a 165 cup and core.

 

[Morrey]

The eldx is hornady's ABLR unless I'm mistaken, I've heard good things about accubond but if bonded failed to perform to op hopes/expectations, then changing colors of the box won't fix everything, if the pro hunter doesn't work out for some reason, then I second a 165 cup and core.

Our feral hog situation is a perfect test platform to see how the performance of certain bullets such as the pro hunter will work out. The hogs are a nuisance and destroy so much property that their harvest is heavily encouraged since they multiple alarmingly fast. A deer may have one or two fawns a year, while a feral sow may have 20-30 piglets a year and start breeding in their first year. When it comes to white tail deer, these trophy animals are a premium in our area. I hesitate to sound "insensitive", but hogs are a good testing platform to dial in effective loads for deer season. And we do use the pork (meat) in all situations so it is very much utilized and enjoyed....we just have lots of it.

 

[Varminterror]

The ELD-X's are not bonded. They have an interlocking ring in the jacket to secure the core, but it's not bonded. The Hornady Interbond is their answer to the Accubond, which I expect will eventually have an ELD tip to replace all of their hard poly tips, A-max, V-max, Interbond, and SST...

 

[horsey300]

With results like tha

JMR40, these ELD-X loads came in at 2650 fps on my chrono as an average. I pushed some up close to 2850 during development but the groups opened up too much. This was a bit different since most other bullets I tested seemed to like the near max velocities. And I agree that I have seen a deer run 200 yards when his chest cavity looks like a buzz saw went thru it. Several of the same scenario in the same season leaves me scratching my head.

With results like that, I'd either push velocity or slam that eldx through the shoulder bone or both.

 

[horsey300]

The ELD-X's are not bonded. They have an interlocking ring in the jacket to secure the core, but it's not bonded. The Hornady Interbond is their answer to the Accubond, which I expect will eventually have an ELD tip to replace all of their hard poly tips, A-max, V-max, Interbond, and SST...

That's right my apologies! Interbond! Crikey time for more coffee!

 

[macgrumpy]

I know it'll be taken as harsh criticism but if you want an animal to drop in his tracks then you have to stop the brain from doing it's job and you can only do that by sending a bullet through the brain, through the spine (close to the brain), or through the heart. Yes, hitting an animal with a big diameter, fast, expanding bullet can shock the animal enough to make him lay down and die (especially if you hit big bones) but instant expiration only happens when you hit the brain, spine, or heart.

I took my 500 lb bull elk this year with .308 Winchester, 168gr TTSX bullet, moving at 2400 fps, at a range of 110 yards. The heart shot dropped him like a rock. The bullet went completely through him and only left a .308 caliber hole on the exit after penetrating an off-side rib (even the rib had a hole through it and it didn't shatter the bone).

 

[.308 Norma]

That's quite the coincidence that you should ask. One of my grandsons is just getting into reloading, and after church yesterday he asked me which bullets he should buy for his 30-06 for use on mule deer. I recommended Hornady, 165gr BTSPs. Those were the bullets I used to kill dozens of mule deer back when I was using my 30-06. I only remember having to trail one deer I shot with my 30-06 using those bullets, and that was because I screwed up. I tried to shoot him in the back of the head at a 75 yards or so. I shot one side of his antlers off instead. He went down immediately, but got right back up and kind of staggered off into the brush. We eventually found him, but with no blood trail on dry ground, it took a while. He had a fractured skull.

At any rate, my Ruger 77, 30-06 will put 3 Hornady 165gr BTSPs in an inch and a quarter at a hundred yards. I use CCI magnum primers and a charge of IMR4350 that gives me just slightly better than 2800fps. And I've taken mule deer from 30 yards to an honest to goodness, paced off, 463 yards with that load.

Disclaimer - I don't use Hornady 165gr BTSPs in my .308 Norma Magnum. My .308 Norma kicks just like any other .30 caliber magnum, and because of that kick, the exposed lead noses of those BTSPs still in the magazine get mashed flat - they become BTFPs. Besides that, while I know those .30 caliber Hornady, 165gr BTSPs work great for mule deer at 30-06 velocities, I personally think they might be a little bit fragile for larger animals (like elk) especially at .30 caliber magnum velocities.

 

[sirgilligan]

I used the 165 SST in Superformance ammo: http://www.hornady.com/store/30-06-Sprg-165-gr-SST-Superformance/

 

[horsey300]

Our feral hog situation is a perfect test platform to see how the performance of certain bullets such as the pro hunter will work out. The hogs are a nuisance and destroy so much property that their harvest is heavily encouraged since they multiple alarmingly fast. A deer may have one or two fawns a year, while a feral sow may have 20-30 piglets a year and start breeding in their first year. When it comes to white tail deer, these trophy animals are a premium in our area. I hesitate to sound "insensitive", but hogs are a good testing platform to dial in effective loads for deer season. And we do use the pork (meat) in all situations so it is very much utilized and enjoyed....we just have lots of it.

I'd be anxious to see results of your field test on the piggies if you don't mind sharing!

 

[Morrey]

I know it'll be taken as harsh criticism but if you want an animal to drop in his tracks then you have to stop the brain from doing it's job and you can only do that by sending a bullet through the brain, through the spine (close to the brain), or through the heart. Yes, hitting an animal with a big diameter, fast, expanding bullet can shock the animal enough to make him lay down and die (especially if you hit big bones) but instant expiration only happens when you hit the brain, spine, or heart.

I took my 500 lb bull elk this year with .308 Winchester, 168gr TTSX bullet, moving at 2400 fps, at a range of 110 yards. The heart shot dropped him like a rock. The bullet went completely through him and only left a .308 caliber hole on the exit after penetrating an off-side rib (even the rib had a hole through it and it didn't shatter the bone).

That's one of those situations we all hope for. The first deer I shot this year was head on, and his heart and chest cavity looked like it had been thru a blender....yet he ran over 120 yards into some heavy briars. You simply never know what organ shots will yield. On the other hand, spine or head shots typically bring your quarry down like a rock. I made some low light shots this year and paid for them by tracking animals.

 

[Morrey]

I'd be anxious to see results of your field test on the piggies if you don't mind sharing!

I sure will! Wanted to share that I called Sierra to ask the tech rep a few questions now that I had a chance to read these responses. He suggested a 150 gr bullet either the flat based spitzer or lead round nose. Round nose I asked? He said try a few and see. He even said he'd send me a handful of bullets as samples to load and try on game. How cool is that. This type of hands on customer service sells relationships and bullets.

After load development and sighting is said and done, I need to harvest a pig by a mid-section rib cage shot to see if these bullets work better than the ELD-X for me in my hunting environment. Please don't get me wrong as I think ELD-X bullets are exceptional, only thought is I may be using them in the wrong application. Plus my marginal shots amplified the issue. My bad. I'll post results with the pro hunter series.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Ive had heart shot deer run over 100 yards, including 1 this year. However, a double lung shot usually puts them down within 30 to 40 steps, at least thats my experience.
I may need to try some bonded bullets myself as the remington corelocts and hornady interlocks have a bad habit of exploding in soft tissue hits like double lung shots when taken at 25 to 30 yards. They work great out past 75 yards but when they are in close, those bullets overexpand on me. Maybe I need to load them a little less stout. I love a 243 win with cheap remington corelocts but at 30 yards, you will not get a exit hole with them. I do once they get out there a little further.

 

[horsey300]

I sure will! Wanted to share that I called Sierra to ask the tech rep a few questions now that I had a chance to read these responses. He suggested a 150 gr bullet either the flat based spitzer or lead round nose. Round nose I asked? He said try a few and see. He even said he'd send me a handful of bullets as samples to load and try on game. How cool is that. This type of hands on customer service sells relationships and bullets.

After load development and sighting is said and done, I need to harvest a pig by a mid-section rib cage shot to see if these bullets work better than the ELD-X for me in my hunting environment. Please don't get me wrong as I think ELD-X bullets are exceptional, only thought is I may be using them in the wrong application. Plus my marginal shots amplified the issue. My bad. I'll post results with the pro hunter series.

Round noses DO hit like a freight train! Used em in .30-30 and .243 for years, they do reduce your range just a bit, .243=250 Max but they flattened everything from here to there! Still got some horded up since they were discontinued. Friend of mine used some from perfecta in his 06 2 years ago, they WILL get you penetration at close range, and if you hit a bone, there will be destruction abound. I don't know who makes perfecta pills but I will say that after several tests, I don't think they're Sierra made as the jackets shattered a lil too easily on the wood post and even my Sierra hollowpoint loads reacted better.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I would consider where you would like to place the bullet. With modern firearms and ammunition I suggest you place your shot right through the front shoulders dropping them in their tracks. You are not wasting that much meat.

 

[LoonWulf]

I think youll be happy with the sierras, my 06s have usually shot different flat based bullet of the same weight into similar locations and very accurately (one of the reasons i use them when i cant get boat tails to shoot in a gun). If yours does youll have options for point blanks to the edge of your comfort zone.
Personally given a choice i always try break the shoulders on deer if im not shooting my 7s. With my 06s load of 165 speers, if i go behind the shoulder i end up with a 1" exit wound and some tracking to do.

 

[kingmt]

I would consider where you would like to place the bullet. With modern firearms and ammunition I suggest you place your shot right through the front shoulders dropping them in their tracks. You are not wasting that much meat.

To me that's quite a bit of meat. We took 4 deer this year so far would be better then 40 lbs of meat. At beef price that's better then $200. I use V-Max preferably in 243 but 223 will work also. Just behind the shoulders gets me damage in both lungs & the heart. Deer don't run out of site. I still get a little meat damage but usually not much. I still don't waste that meat, I clean the blood out of it instead but it's a bunch of extra work. I butcher the meat myself so I recover more meat then having them processed.

ETA: One downfall of my tactic is all the blood is dumped into the body instead of spraying out. It makes the deer a little heavier to load & messier to dress.