revolvers with smooth trigger pull

[Old Fuff]

Big deal. If Ed McGivern had been a decent shot he's have MISSED those washers.... by shooting through the hole!

Actually he had a problem.

He started by shooting at small coins - such a quarters. Now if he missed, the quarter would fall to the ground and likely be picked up in a condition that clearly showed he hadn't hit it.

If he did hit it, it would fly off somewhere and not be found, in which case onlookers lacking proof would say he must have missed.

So he took washers, pasted a postage stamp over the hole, and when he hit it. it didn't go off flying into the field somewhere and the hole through the stamp proved that a hit had been made.

Usually he did this with an early Smith & Wesson K-22 Outdoorsman (you of course know what that was) equipped with a gold-bead front sight of his own design - or a similar .38 Military & Police target model.

And he did all of this in front of witnesses - some of whom had cameras...

 

[Hawk]

i've never fired a revolver but hanled some and they feel better in my hand than a semi and i always hear they are better for HD. Ive been researching though and some listed trigger pulls are rediculous "8lbs single action 14 lbs double" "12lbs double 7.5 single" is there anything with like 8 lb da pulls?

I'm pretty fresh from the steep part of the revolver DA learning curve, so I'll take a stab:

The 12 poiund double actions seem pretty typical. I believe the average single action is better than you've listed but that doesn't matter - you're talking HD so you won't get to use SA apart from some bullseye competition and informal shooting. You'd probably be best served to get the SA numbers out of your mind.

All DA triggers, with the exception of the unobtainable ones Old Fuff mentioned, suck. Python DA triggers suck; older M27 DA triggers suck. (I think the "long actions" preceeded model numbers like "M27"). They do suck differently and some prefer Python suckage to M27 suckage. It's a personal thing - you will be encouraged to try all.

It's not the DA trigger (which you'll be doing most all of your HD practice with) that's the problem - it's your trigger finger, grip, et al. It's a zen thing. You'll eventually embrace the suckage, become one with the suckage. I found it's worth it but depending on what you're used to it may prove both lengthy and expensive. If you're old and used to tuned 1911s, it may well prove very lengthy and very expensive (but still worth it, IMHO).

The baggage associated with making the DA trigger acceptable to you rather than vice-versa is heavy. Even more than autoloaders, tuned DA revolvers are fussy, finicky, unreliable single purpose artifacts unsuitable for HD. They'll restrict your participation in internet "revolver love" and "versus" threads - though this last might actually be an advantage. You see, in these threads, autoloaders are made out to be "ammo sensitive" and / or "fussy" and nobody wants to hear that your wheelgun needs specially constructed handloads with primers from a single source of primer elves or that it won't light Fiocchi or S&B. Further, all the mantras recited in such threads get twisted.

"Six for sure" becomes "Six for maybe on the third try".
"Just pull the trigger again" becomes "Just pull the trigger again ... and again, and again."
See where this is going?

Revolvers have much to recommend them for HD but, with minor exceptions, that trigger stays that way. Changing it turns the wheelgun into a slow-to-load, low-capacity autoloader that's fussy about ammo (actually much fussier). Good luck in developing your double action-fu.

 

[krs]

There WERE no cameras in his day. Old Fuff, You of all people should know that all of the photos in his book were staged reenactments.

In fact, he's never have used a stamp since at one cent postage a stamp was worth a fifty round box of ammo.

Even so, the fact of his quarter (which didn't exist yet either) flying off not to be found would have been sufficient proof of a hit. The problem he had was that most of the time his targets plopped unceremoniously to the ground at his feet.

The bits of paper he used, the so-called "stamps" were actually such a thin bit of tissue that the mere act of tossing a washer with tissue over the hole was enough to hole the tissue by force of air alone. This was developed by McGivern after it was discovered that he had been serrupticiously poking his pinkie through the hole during the act of tossing his washer in the air. It had it's hole before it left his hand and he very nearly was jailed for fraud in the town where this was discovered to be his method of trickery and deception for money.

The man was a charlatan, a fraud, who traveled from town to town putting on his act, competing with legions of other such "showmen" and peddlers of miracle cures.

Being an old fuff is not enough in and of itself.

 

[BADUNAME37]

He started by shooting at small coins - such a quarters. Now if he missed, the quarter would fall to the ground and likely be picked up in a condition that clearly showed he hadn't hit it.

If he did hit it, it would fly off somewhere and not be found, in which case onlookers lacking proof would say he must have missed.

So he took washers, pasted a postage stamp over the hole, and when he hit it. it didn't go off flying into the field somewhere and the hole through the stamp proved that a hit had been made.

Maybe the person throwing it up pressed a hole through with their finger as they were tossing the washer.

 

[Old Fuff]

krs:


Is you trying to pick a fight...??

 

[Old Fuff]

Maybe the person throwing it up pressed a hole through with their finger as they were tossing the washer.

In front of witnesses???

 

[sm]

Jim Keenan wrote:
I was less impressed when he clicked at the bowling pins.

Shot placement is best accomplished when primer gets crushed.

*crush-not-click*

 

[Old Fuff]

All DA triggers, with the exception of the unobtainable ones Old Fuff mentioned, suck.

They aren't unobtainable. Pre-1948 .38 Military & Police revolvers (other then absolutely like-new examples) can be purchased for very reasonable prices compared to current revolvers of the same kind.

Python DA triggers suck; older M27 DA triggers suck. (I think the "long actions" preceeded model numbers like "M27").

You are right on this point. Long action .357 Magnum revolvers were made between 1935 and 1941. If you want a decent one it may cost twice that of what Python's are generally going for. The problem is that very few are available.

If you're old and used to tuned 1911s, it may well prove very lengthy and very expensive

I am both, but I never found that using one affected my performance when shooting the other. Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan (both experienced double-action shooters) prefered Smith & Wesson K-frame over N-frame revolvers for this kind of shooting - I think because they were easier to hold on to and the line-of-bore sat lower in the hand.

... tuned DA revolvers are fussy, finicky, unreliable single purpose artifacts unsuitable for HD.

Not at all; but it depends on who does the work. If you mean the tipical basement benchtop job you are likely right. But a true professional job is another matter. They know better then to believe that simply polishing this or that and changing out the springs for lighter ones will result in a reliable-under-all-conditions trigger pull.

 

[Hawk]

I am both, but I never found that using one affected my performance when shooting the other. Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan (both experienced double-action shooters) prefered Smith & Wesson K-frame over N-frame revolvers for this kind of shooting - I think because they were easier to hold on to and the line-of-bore sat lower in the hand.

Might just be a lack of talent on my part - I've finally gotten to where my double action results aren't horrible and I'd guess it took around 1,000 rounds of assorted .357 and .45ACP. The best results have been when I stuck with that weird mixture of new 627 with some old parts.

My hands might be a bit large for the typical "K" - I don't get along too well with them compared to round butt "N" which seems to offer the best results thus far.

I haven't found that DA practice negatively impacted my results with the 1911 mutants but I did, in retrospect, spend far too much time wishing for the revolvers trigger to be more managable when I should have just been trying to deal with it on its own terms. The OP reminded me of those dark times.

As to long actions - they're hiding around here and the online vendors I watch (now including your MI dealer) haven't turned one up. I've pretty much sworn off random sight-unseen purchases. I may have some luck if I ever drive to Arizona with some Colt trade-bait.

 

[Hawk]

Not at all; but it depends on who does the work. If you mean the tipical basement benchtop job you are likely right. But a true professional job is another matter. They know better then to believe that simply polishing this or that and changing out the springs for lighter ones will result in a reliable-under-all-conditions trigger pull.

Even some big names list pull weights that the OP would appear to find objectionable - as example, Gemini lists 9, 10 and 11 pounds and I'd assume if I specified "must light S&B and Fiocchi", I'd probably be looking at 11.

The OP appears to be grousing about 12. Not a huge leap from 11 though having it smoothed up certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Old Fuff]

As a rule of thumb, most professionals follow the factory's Performance Center's practice of not using lighter springs in a so-called "street action." They will do so in "competition packages." The idea is to get a give-or-take 12 pound pull that feels like 8 or less.

Few people understand that the felt trigger pull is a combination of spring tension plus friction or binding in the movements of the parts themselves.

Depending on what you are starting with, you can get slight to noticeable improvement by just addressing the second factor noted above. And to accomplish this it may not be necessary to polish anything at all.

But that would take all the fun out of doing home jobs and ruin the aftermarket in reduced springs sales.

 

[GRIZ22]

8lbs single action 14 lbs double" "12lbs double 7.5 single" is there anything with like 8 lb da pulls?

Don't get confused with smooth and light. Smooth is much more important than light. Smooth means a consistent pull that progresses with no spots where it all of a sudden goes from light to heavy to light.

A 12-14 pound DA pull that is smooth is easy to manage. A gritty (light to heavy to light) 8 pound pull can screw you up. Don't look for light springs look for smooth. Light springs can also cause misfires by not hitting the primer hard enough.

S&W and Ruger have the smoothest triggers out of the box. Taurus are not as smooth but not bad. I'm not condemning Taurus revolvers as I have a few that I shoot and have no reservation using as a carry gun.

I would choose a smooth 20 lb DA trigger over a gritty 8 lb trigger. I'd pass on any gun having a 8 lb single action.

 

[MrBorland]

It's a zen thing.

Exactly.

I didn't shoot revolvers. I wasn't aware that revolvers need trigger jobs.

I started shooting revolvers. I became aware that all revolvers must have trigger jobs.

I've been shooting revolvers. I'm not aware that revolvers need trigger jobs*.


*they can be a nice indulgence if done well and appropriately, though

 

[krs]

Old fuff:

"krs: Is you trying to pick a fight...??"

'Course not. Don't even think it. All in fun.

 

[Hawk]

But that would take all the fun out of doing home jobs and ruin the aftermarket in reduced springs sales.

Not always - there's still those rare anomalous 28-2s I stumble across that have all manner of parts rubbing on other parts they were never intended to.

Those things will continue to benefit from Jerry Miculek DVDs, stainless steel washer gizmos and the like. I actually rather like the thing now and it still pounds primers like a Rockwell "C" probe on steroids. But, it was certainly not a typical S&W (in fact, thus far it's unique among those I've seen) - it was "special" in a number of unhappy ways.

I'll have to admit the 627PC was rather of a revelation - it would pretty much have had to have been to get me to write that check after trying the trigger but it seemed the right thing to do. I'll cheerfully agree that a Cunningham makeover over something from 1927 might be still better but the PC is proving to be good enough to have gotten me over the steep part of the curve, as it were.

Oddly enough, after several hundred rounds out of the PC product, I actually do somewhat better with the revolvers with less accommodating triggers. It's almost like the PC wasn't interfering with the technique so progress with that specific revolver "spilled over" onto the others.

Or something like that - I may not be explaining it right.
Zen, and all that.

 

[Old Fuff]

'Course not. Don't even think it. All in fun.

Which is exactly the way I took it...

 

[Old Fuff]

Or something like that - I may not be explaining it right.

No, you have it right. As you parctice and prefect a technique the ability will cover different revolvers, but you'll likely do better with the tuned P.C. gun.

But that said, there is no reason your model 28 cannot be the equal of the 627PC.

The '28 was intended to be a police sidearm, and as such they may have used some stiffer springs. But keep in mind that other then cosmetics and a bit less scheduled assembly time, it is identical to the higher priced flagship model 27.