RMA gun for warrenty

[Jesusguy]

As I understood it, I could ship my gun back to a manufacturer for service without it needing to be entered into their bound book, as it is my gun still, just in for repair. With all the new shipping rule changes,from the major carriers. It looks like now I must go to a licensed FFL to have my pistol shipped back to a manufacturer for repair.

So, the question is do manufacturers have to enter my gun as received from the sender FFL and dispose it back to the FFL once repairs are complete, and then I have to complete another 4473 to retrieve the pistol? Or can the manufacturer just ship my gun directly back to me, via UPS as it’s within their rules or shipping a handgun to a non-ffl individual, like its been for the last 40 years? Thanks in advance!

 

[dogtown tom]

As I understood it, I could ship my gun back to a manufacturer for service without it needing to be entered into their bound book, as it is my gun still, just in for repair.

Ownership has nothing to do with a dealer or manufacturer recording the acquisition or disposition of a firearm.
In fact, ATF regulations require a licensee to record any gun other than a "while you wait" or same day repair.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/doe...received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and

With all the new shipping rule changes,from the major carriers. It looks like now I must go to a licensed FFL to have my pistol shipped back to a manufacturer for repair.

Correct.
While federal law doesn't prohibit you from shipping the pistol yourself, the carriers restrictions do.

So, the question is do manufacturers have to enter my gun as received from the sender FFL and dispose it back to the FFL once repairs are complete, and then I have to complete another 4473 to retrieve the pistol?

When you hand your firearm to your dealer for the purposes of repair, no 4473 is required under federal law when it is returned to you.. It is the one exception to filling out a Form 4473. It doesn't matter if that dealer does the repair, his gunsmith or whether he shipped it to a 3rd party for gunsmithing.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/atf-form-4473-required-when-gunsmith-returns-repaired-firearm

Or can the manufacturer just ship my gun directly back to me, via UPS as it’s within their rules or shipping a handgun to a non-ffl individual, like its been for the last 40 years?

Federal law allows the direct return of a repaired or replacement firearm of the same kind or type to the person from whom it was received. That has not changed.
But the manufacturer cannot return it directly to you because your FFL shipped it to the manufacturer, not you.

 

[CapnMac]

Short answer is "It Depends upon the State" as those differ.

Federally, @dogtown tom explains it succinctly.

Given the uncertainties with common carriers of late, returning to a dealer does, on the surface, seem to be easier.

Technically, this is not an issue for the Legal Forum, as this is the area for discussing statutes and legal text.

 

[rust collector]

This is an area in which law, regulation and carrier policy affect the outcome, as noted above. This question and response helps to understand the process. I see no reason to close, unless irrelevant posts occur.

 

[12Bravo20]

When you hand your firearm to your dealer for the purposes of repair, no 4473 is required under federal law when it is returned to you.. It is the one exception to filling out a Form 4473. It doesn't matter if that dealer does the repair, his gunsmith or whether he shipped it to a 3rd party for gunsmithing.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/atf-form-4473-required-when-gunsmith-returns-repaired-firearm

Yet I have had a FFL insist that I fill out another 4473 when returning a replacement pistol to me. I had a RIA 1911 that just could not be fixed so RIA replaced it with another 1911 with a different serial number. The FFL felt that since the replacement had a different serial number then a new 4473 had to be done. I pointed out the pertinent ATF regulations you linked to no avail.

I get it that they were being extra careful to not run afoul of the ATF so I didn't argue after pointing out the ATF regulations.

 

[dogtown tom]

Yet I have had a FFL insist that I fill out another 4473 when returning a replacement pistol to me.
I had a RIA 1911 that just could not be fixed so RIA replaced it with another 1911 with a different serial number. The FFL felt that since the replacement had a different serial number then a new 4473 had to be done. I pointed out the pertinent ATF regulations you linked to no avail.

I get it that they were being extra careful to not run afoul of the ATF so I didn't argue after pointing out the ATF regulations.

While its federal law/ATF regs, there may be state laws that require the dealer to do that.
If there isn't a state law, the dealer isn't violating ATF regs by having the buyer complete another 4473/NICS.......but an educated customer will remember and likely not use that FFL again.

 

[.455_Hunter]

It was my understanding that the new shipping requirements allowed an individual to ship a firearm back to the manufacturer using a manufacturer (who has an account) supplied shipping label, plus returning the firearm directly to the individual.

 

[DukeConnor]

I've never used them but it's a option.

https://www.shipmygun.com/go/

 

[CapnMac]

the dealer isn't violating ATF regs by having the buyer complete another 4473/NICS

Precisely Correct.
Ref: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
Snip (emphasis added):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in
firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of
such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce; importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector
licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and
this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law
to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

Now, An FFL could, from some imagined duty of caution, repeat the process.

Mind, an informed customer is likely to notice such things. And, the over-cautious FFL is exposing themselves to making an error on the duplicate forms. Does not mean that is a necessary occurance, just hat it could happen, and such an inadvertent error could have consequences for the FFL further down the road.

 

[dogtown tom]

It was my understanding that the new shipping requirements allowed an individual to ship a firearm back to the manufacturer using a manufacturer (who has an account) supplied shipping label, plus returning the firearm directly to the individual.

While federal law allows that, the new shipping policies of both FedEx and UPS make no mention of such an exemption.
I asked my UPS rep if that were allowed and she said absolutely not.

My best guess is that manufacturers (and anyone else that supplies a return label) are just ignoring these new FedEx/UPS policies.
If you read the FedEx FFL shipping policy they state they may seize any firearms not shipped in accordance with their policy.

 

[rust collector]

Yet I have had a FFL insist that I fill out another 4473 when returning a replacement pistol to me. I had a RIA 1911 that just could not be fixed so RIA replaced it with another 1911 with a different serial number. The FFL felt that since the replacement had a different serial number then a new 4473 had to be done. I pointed out the pertinent ATF regulations you linked to no avail.

I get it that they were being extra careful to not run afoul of the ATF so I didn't argue after pointing out the ATF regulations.

If you hit the link provided by DT, you see that the 4473 is required unless a firearm is being returned to owner. Replacement isn't the same as return. You did not own the replacement previously. If I were the LGS, I would want paperwork to show that the gun had been transferred out of my possession.

 

[dogtown tom]

If you hit the link provided by DT, you see that the 4473 is required unless a firearm is being returned to owner.

Thats not what that link says. That FAQ answer cites 27 CFR 478.124(a) which addresses the Form 4473 and 478.147 Return of firearm.

Replacement isn't the same as return. You did not own the replacement previously.

Ownership has nothing to do with it. ATF clearly allows for the direct return of a repaired OR REPLACEMENT firearm as noted in ATF regulations:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.

and

§ 478.147 Return of firearm.
A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See § 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic.

If I were the LGS, I would want paperwork to show that the gun had been transferred out of my possession.

The dealers bound book is the record of his acquisitions and dispositions. Thats were he records the disposition of the repaired or replacement firearm and simply makes the notation "No 4473 required". I have dozens of such entries every year and in four compliance inspections it doesn't even cause the IOI to blink.

 

[rust collector]

Thanks for that information. The second link referred only to a repaired firearm.

 

[12Bravo20]

While its federal law/ATF regs, there may be state laws that require the dealer to do that.
If there isn't a state law, the dealer isn't violating ATF regs by having the buyer complete another 4473/NICS.......but an educated customer will remember and likely not use that FFL again.

There are no requirements for a dealer to run another BGC or have the customer fill out another 4473 here in Missouri. And yes I did inform the FFL that they were wrong along with pointing out the pertinent ATF regulations. And NO I have not been back to that FFL since.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I just shipped and recieved back a repaired SCCY CPx2. They sent me a Fed Ex shipping label and shipped it back to me. It did have to be signed for by me. Direct to my house, no FFL involved.

 

[Jesusguy]

So there are federal laws, state laws and RULES in place by these NATIONAL carriers...I.E nothing to do with restricted states.... Now while they are not technically "Laws", these carriers have in the fine print they allow for the confiscation of firearm and prosecution if not shipped to their regulations.... which government agency has been using clerical errors to threaten FFL holders?

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/l...ess-and-legend-firearms-in-monroe-new-jersey/ , FYI after a bunch of litigation he kept his FFL

I had to delve deeper into this because the vast majority seem to have gotten hung up on BATF definitions and if you live ban/restricted states. Carriers posted new rules last year for the FFL holders and non-holders, and they are just now going into effect. FedEx no longer allowed individuals to ship guns. Still allows shipping between FFLs but only if shipper signed a "Shipping Compliance Agreement", UPS has a similar agreement. I went to the stores and inquire the minimum wage worker about filling out a said agreement no one knew what I was talking about and there are no forms online. I may have had more luck talking to a UPS/FedEx business rep, if anyone has access to one I would really be curious on their response.

USPS requires this form: https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf , to be filled out for FFLs to ship any guns, look at that date 1994. When I was working at a LGS when we shipped stuff out in flat-rate boxes, I was never asked for this paper work by any USPS worker and it was clearly a gun store. When I asked the postmaster here he said absolutely needs to be filled out for every gun shipped. When I asked why it only mattered when I physically packages off at the post office and not when they pick them up at the store, he stared at me blankly.

A few friends i have in the industry I talked to about it and they drew a blank when i asked them about the changes.

I went as far as to call the local ATF office for clarity on the new rules imposed by carriers and how the ATF was handling it..... I was met with "well it depends on your state and local laws" and " here's a number, call someone else" run around.

It seems like a bunch of gotcha laws are about to come into effect and they don't want anyone know. The Tin Foil Hat i have on is telling me this might be done accidental on purpose.

 

[Rule3]

It was my understanding that the new shipping requirements allowed an individual to ship a firearm back to the manufacturer using a manufacturer (who has an account) supplied shipping label, plus returning the firearm directly to the individual.

Seems that Ruger and SW have been doing this for a long time. They send you a shipping label and then UPS of FedEx comes and picks it up Then when fixed sends it back to your house signature required.

Seems like something that should be asked to the manufacture of the gun?

 

[dogtown tom]

So there are federal laws, state laws and RULES in place by these NATIONAL carriers...I.E nothing to do with restricted states.... Now while they are not technically "Laws", these carriers have in the fine print they allow for the confiscation of firearm and prosecution if not shipped to their regulations.... which government agency has been using clerical errors to threaten FFL holders?

Ummmm......the same federal agency that has overseen FFL holders since 1972?

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/l...ess-and-legend-firearms-in-monroe-new-jersey/ , FYI after a bunch of litigation he kept his FFL

That article has a bunch of inaccurate statements and assumptions.

I had to delve deeper into this because the vast majority seem to have gotten hung up on BATF definitions and if you live ban/restricted states. Carriers posted new rules last year for the FFL holders and non-holders, and they are just now going into effect.

Huh? "Just now"? FedEx policy changed in September 2021. UPS September 2022.

FedEx no longer allowed individuals to ship guns. Still allows shipping between FFLs but only if shipper signed a "Shipping Compliance Agreement", UPS has a similar agreement.

We know. It's been discussed here for the last year and a half.

I went to the stores and inquire the minimum wage worker about filling out a said agreement no one knew what I was talking about and there are no forms online. I may have had more luck talking to a UPS/FedEx business rep, if anyone has access to one I would really be curious on their response.

First, UPS Stores are not company owned, but franchisees. They are specifically prohibited by UPS from accepting firearm shipments. FedEx Office locations are company owned. Its puzzling why you would ask a minimum wage worker about a corporate account issue.

USPS requires this form: https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf , to be filled out for FFLs to ship any guns, look at that date 1994. When I was working at a LGS when we shipped stuff out in flat-rate boxes, I was never asked for this paper work by any USPS worker and it was clearly a gun store. When I asked the postmaster here he said absolutely needs to be filled out for every gun shipped. When I asked why it only mattered when I physically packages off at the post office and not when they pick them up at the store, he stared at me blankly.

If you weren't handing a USPS Form 1508 with a handgun shipment to your letter carrier when he came to pick up, you violated federal law. It ain't the letter carriers job to ask "whats in the box", its your responsibility to tell him by handing him the Form 1508.

A few friends i have in the industry I talked to about it and they drew a blank when i asked them about the changes.

Yup.
It's been a huge secret in the firearms industry. So secret that its only been discussed in the media, blogs, every gun forum in the country for a year and a half.

I went as far as to call the local ATF office for clarity on the new rules imposed by carriers and how the ATF was handling it..... I was met with "well it depends on your state and local laws" and " here's a number, call someone else" run around.

Did you ask about Ground rates vs Priority vs Overnight? "Cause ATF ain't got nuthin to do with that either.
ATF rules don't change because a private business changes its tariffs. ATF has no say so.

It seems like a bunch of gotcha laws are about to come into effect and they don't want anyone know. The Tin Foil Hat i have on is telling me this might be done accidental on purpose.

Oh yes, the one weird trick secret law that ATF doesn't want anyone to know about.

 

[CapnMac]

Common Carriers are regulated under 47 USC 200-223
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/chapter-5/subchapter-II/part-I
Table of contents snip:

1. § 201. Service and charges
2. § 202. Discriminations and preferences
3. § 203. Schedules of charges
4. § 204. Hearings on new charges; suspension pending hearing; refunds; duration of hearing; appeal of order concluding hearing
5. § 205. Commission authorized to prescribe just and reasonable charges; penalties for violations
6. § 206. Carriers’ liability for damages
7. § 207. Recovery of damages
8. § 208. Complaints to Commission; investigations; duration of investigation; appeal of order concluding investigation
9. § 209. Orders for payment of money
10. § 210. Franks and passes; free service to governmental agencies in connection with national defense
11. § 211. Contracts of carriers; filing with Commission
12. § 212. Interlocking directorates; officials dealing in securities
13. § 213. Valuation of property of carrier
14. § 214. Extension of lines or discontinuance of service; certificate of public convenience and necessity
15. § 215. Examination of transactions relating to furnishing of services, equipment, etc.; reports to Congress
16. § 216. Receivers and trustees; application of chapter
17. § 217. Agents’ acts and omissions; liability of carrier
18. § 218. Management of business; inquiries by Commission
19. § 219. Reports by carriers; contents and requirements generally
20. § 220. Accounts, records, and memoranda
21. § 221. Consolidations and mergers of telephone companies
22. § 222. Privacy of customer information
23. § 223. Obscene or harassing telephone calls in the District of Columbia or in interstate or foreign communications
24. § 224. Pole attachments
25. § 225. Telecommunications services for hearing-impaired and speech-impaired individuals
26. § 226. Telephone operator services
27. § 227. Restrictions on use of telephone equipment
28. § 227a. Consumer education materials on how to avoid scams that rely upon misleading or inaccurate caller identification information
29. § 227b. Call authentication
30. § 227b–1. Access to number resources
31. § 227b–2. Provision of evidence of certain robocall violations to Attorney General
32. § 228. Regulation of carrier offering of pay-per-call services
33. § 229. Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act compliance
34. § 230. Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material
35. § 231. Restriction of access by minors to materials commercially distributed by means of World Wide Web that are harmful to minors

Which is a legal specialty unto itself, and well beyond the scope of THR.
But, they are generally free to establish their own Tariff rules on what and how they carry and from and to whom.

 

[rust collector]

Disparaging comment has been deleted. Time to wrap.