Road Rage Confrontation

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The world is full of morons. Some percentage of them dangerous. When he honked and flipped you off, you should have ignored him and moved on. That's de-escalation.

A tough bit to swallow, I know. But that's life.

Your pepper spray force option obligates you to avoid altercations. Those of us who carry guns regularly know all to well the sting of having to walk away from your average insulting moron who needs to get his teeth knocked out. But the fact is, by participating in the altercation you are partly responsible for the outcome. If that outcome involves shooting someone (or to a lesser degree, macing them) you had best be sure that you did everything by the numbers up to that point.

If you want to have the option to duke it out with some retard over insults (and by reciprocating the insults you are accepting that possibility), leave the pepper spray/pistols at home. When you carry a force option, you are obligated to avoid using it. This is the trade-off. To be ready to survive when it's really on the line, you give up your ability to 'defend your honor' from common knuckle-draggers.

The way I've had it explained, is that if you have a concealed weapon and an altercation commences and you did not take 'outs' that were available to you, you will be partly responsible for the outcome due to the fact that your opponent was unaware that the possible outcome of his actions included not just a fight, but death. You are the only one in the altercation who knows that death is a real possibility, so you are obligated to avoid it moreso than your opponent.

Your mistake was to participate in the altercation. The guy was looking for someone to screw with, your move at the intersection put you on the radar screen. He threw the line out and you bit it, giving him the altercation he was fishing for.

Good lessons in all this. Thanks for bringing it up.

- Gabe

PS: I'm not a lawyer, this is basically just my opinion on the subject...
 
Having had my rear window blown out by some psychopath because I wasn't polite when he tailgated me, I can tell you this: keep your eyes to the front (as much as is reasonable while driving), don't make eye contact, keep your mouth shut, and drive away. Period.

If you get followed, call the police if you have a cell phone and follow instructions; if you don't have a cell phone, head for the nearest police station. Anything else, and you risk a violent confrontation. People who wig out to that extreme over a traffic incident are not stable and may very well kill you.

Good post, and some very good responses.
 
Those of us who carry guns regularly know all to well the sting of having to walk away from your average insulting moron who needs to get his teeth knocked out.

True ... but you'll be surprised how much easier it is to back down when you're carrying.

Back before I carried if I would de-escalate such a situation afterward I would feel like a wimp ... but now when I go out of my way to de-escalate these types of situations I feel more like I'm being a responsible member of the human race (because frankly if I don't de-escalate then the chances of the other guy dying increases exponentially...not an outcome I want and definitely not one he wants...I don't care if I'm 110% in the right I certainly don't want to kill someone and I don't want to push some idiot into a position where I have to kill him).
 
If you're being pulled in an argument with an idiot, see to that the same isn't happening to the idiot in question.

Even better, just avoid, deflect and defuse. Don't participate, it'll be a lonely fight for the jerk screaming. Who was it that said "they can't wage a war if nobody shows" ?
 
road rage

Almost seemed to me that you were looking for a chance to use your mace. Cussing back at him. Weren't really trying to de-escalate. Word of warning, and it comes as a surprise to many. Mace may take a minute or more to really become effective. Someone high on drugs or rage, can fail to feel the pain for a time, and never become incapacitated in some cases. You would be a world of hurt if confronting someone, spraying them, only to find yourself being harmed in the ineffective minute, or by someone enraged enough to ignore it. It happens.
 
You can't fight every Bozo you run into. They've got you outnumbered. If you are in a confrontational situation in public, your best course of action is usually to quickly leave the area.
 
The way I've had it explained, is that if you have a concealed weapon and an altercation commences and you did not take 'outs' that were available to you, you will be partly responsible for the outcome due to the fact that your opponent was unaware that the possible outcome of his actions included not just a fight, but death. You are the only one in the altercation who knows that death is a real possibility, so you are obligated to avoid it moreso than your opponent.

GRD - that's more than your opinion. That is in fact the law (in Virginia) as it was explained when I took the course for my CHL. In fact, we were told that if we did anything to escalate the situation we were wholly responsible for whatever happened as a result.

It's amazing how much stupidity by other drivers I simply blow off when I'm carrying. Getting flipped off and cussed at isn't even an issue.
 
I'd lay ya' a nickle that the guy kept going after you because you are a smaller guy. That putz would have cussed at you and driven away had you been 6'4 and 220lbs.

My advice, keep that cell phone on you at all times. Its as effective a weapon as a .45 if you use it fast and furious.
 
Its funny -

Women aren't nearly as often cited in road rage incidents....

but i can bet cha huge amounts of cash they are every bit as mad!!!!

Heck - just being privy to my mom and step-mom's outbursts - from women you'd never think of saying those things... (ok... maybe my mom - but still) say the DANGDEST things and react in the darndest ways when they forget yer there. (cause i'm son - i'm not "guest" in the strictist sense....)

Like i said - i know there are women "road ragers" but its not just a manly thing - more in the way its handled w/o thinking about it.... just interesting to think about in the few times i've witnessed it. I've had to laugh at my mom several times and saying "whats it accomplish?" Her heart rate was raging and she was MAD... would she have followed... ya know - sometimes i think if she was a guy - ya... heheh

J/Tharg!
 
PS - people with almost no posts routinely troll firearms boards with stories such as these, hoping to draw a 'shoulda shot him' response. I haven't read your other posts, have no idea who or what you are, and sincerely hope that is not what this was.

I understand your hesitation in believing or responding to this post, but I can vouch 110% for this member as he is my younger brother.

Glad we got that settled...

Now as to the ncident.....

Shoulda shot him:neener:

WildmymottoabeltfedineveryblazeranfncineveryfordAlaska
 
i'll only post w/ a sig

thereisareasonimakeitapointtoreadwildalaskaposts

<ROFLMAO>
 
Wow, thanks for all the input. A lot to go over and review. I like the idea of disengaging/deescalation and not talking, I will make sure I keep my mouth shut should something in the future occur. Just drive away and ignore the perp is also a good thing I need to practice. I really should have proceeded to the police station after the first stop.

Rayra- I understand your post and even though I do not post often, I read threads almost every other day during free time. I'm on here, sigforum and 1911forum quite a bit. Also the way I was taught during my drivers education courses and by the DMV here in Ca was the way Pilgrim described the laws. I was in the wrong for rolling through it but had he not been there my order was not incorrect.

johnnymenudo- You should see the look on my face after I read your post. Lol very amusing and thanks for the input it was quite the read.

GRD- I understand the idea of doing everything possible to avoid the altercations because I am carrying mace. I may have not done it in the situation and it just tells me I need to make sure I avoid confrontation at all costs in the future if something occurs. Thanks for reminding me. I should have not participated in the confrontation yet I did. Lesson learned to keep driving and avoid all confrontation if possible.

Gunpacker- It may have seemed that I was looking for a person to use it on but from my point of view during the scenario I did not. I did not want to have the confrontation no one does, but I may have not done the best things to avoid it. I'm learning. I also understand that mace may not take affect on some people and on others it may have a delayed effect. I happen to have "accidently" sprayed myself while deer hunting and it took a serious immediate effect on me(thats just me). I also did do a lot of research on pepper spray including how it works, what its effects are and the different kind of sprays when I decided to carry it. Thanks for reminding me that even though I do carry it, it is not a 100% safeguard just like anything else.

alcmaeon-I almost guarentee that you are right too. I know he took it farther than he would have because he saw I am smaller. I learned about how this takes place during my highschool years.

Wildalaska-Can't resist a good laugh..lol nice post

No harsh feelings just my opinion. Thanks for all the responses.
 
"Your mistake was to participate in the altercation. The guy was looking for someone to screw with, your move at the intersection put you on the radar screen. He threw the line out and you bit it, giving him the altercation he was fishing for."

Yep, can't agree more, and as someone already stated, if you are carrying a weapon for self defense, whether it be mace, gun, knife, egging him on when you have a weapon is a good way to get in trouble. More lethal the wepaon, more trouble you will be in if/when you use it.

"I understand the idea of doing everything possible to avoid the altercations because I am carrying mace. I may have not done it in the situation and it just tells me I need to make sure I avoid confrontation at all costs in the future if something occurs. Thanks for reminding me. I should have not participated in the confrontation yet I did. Lesson learned to keep driving and avoid all confrontation if possible."

Just remember, walking away from a confrontation isn't being a wuss, it's being smart. You are potentially saving the other person's life, even if said person may be a waste of space. Glad you posted though, takes a man to fess up and admit he did something wrong. Glad everything worked out okay for you though, and be careful.

:)
 
Thanks for reminding me.
And thank you for posting your story, it made for a good thread and I'm sure it helped plenty more people than just you. Lots of people read these boards, so one mans experience becomes a lesson not only for him but for many.

- Gabe

PS: Good point Zundfolge. You're absolutely right.

PPS:
You can't fight every Bozo you run into. They've got you outnumbered.
Quote of the day :)
 
This is just adding more to the pile. I carry a concealed weapon and I am very relaxed in the car when I am. The thing I am always thinking is, "It isn't worth his/her life." If I get in a physical altercation, I am not a fighter. I am not going to take my licks and move on. I have a pistol and I will defend myself if I have no other options. The nice thing is I will usually probably have many other easier options that shooting someone. The first is a simple wave and mouth lipping of "sorry". I do like someone else said, I try to avoid eye contact.

You are young, what doesn't kill you will only make you smarter. Next time don't say anything back and most certainly, don't pull over on the side of the road and relax. Go somewhere else. Life is too short to get fired up about these things. As I said before, "It isn't worth their life." Right now since you are not armed, you are the person who is going to get shot if you are mouthing off at someone and you escalate a situation. Someday you might be the one carrying and that is exactly what you need to tell yourself, "it isn't worth their life".

And for some reason people are worried about people who carry guns. I think we are the most relaxed people around.
 
"it isn't worth their life"

I've lived in the city long enough to realize that most people's lives around here aren't worth very much. Between the gang members, insurance fraud, rapists, dishonest cops, drug dealers... I'd say what I have for breakfast is worth more than many people's lives. Don't worry about their life, worry about your own. And don't worry about the guy on the road, he's got it coming... maybe not today, and not from you... but it will happen. All you can do is hope you witness it and get to testify against him (or what's left of him) in court.
 
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something simalar happened to me a while back. thing is this guy had his wife and kid in the car. He told me as soon as I stop Im dead. It took a while to lose him ,he was very actively pursuing me. I just couldnt believe this low life was doing this with his wife and kid .His wife was even participating by screaming obsceities and throwing her drink at me. It made me wonder how that kid will grow up too.With two raving lunatic parents.
 
Do an Internet search for a report by Human Rights Watch on what happens to young white boys when they go to jail. Keep it filed in the back of your mind at all times. One of the toughest men I have ever known, and the last man in the world you would want to get into a fight with, was a very meek man.
 
Horns are to warn someone an accident is imminent--that's IT! (Unless you're trying to make someone mad enough to confront you.) Your "buddy" used his that way and when you honked back he figured he had a taker.

Cussing at someone is never a good idea and is often against the law if it is done properly in public. Obscene or threatening hand gestures likewise.

Stopping a car when in the middle of a confrontation is generally a bad idea if it is possible to avoid doing so.

Your pride isn't worth killing someone over--backing down is always a good option if it's open to you.

You did pretty well. Think about what happened and try to figure ways you could have avoided the situation entirely or how you could have ended it more quickly.

Don't know about your area, but in my state you can get an address from a license tag number for about $10 and the time it takes to fill out a form at the Department of Public Safety. Keep an eye out--it's never smart to underestimate the extent of someone's craziness.
 
Bad deal. High energy, high emotion situation.

The only accident I have ever been in where I was at fault was in a similar situation, and I was 17 at the time.

Jerk got behind me, flashing his lights, honking his horn; I could see him yelling and giving me the finger in the rear view mirror. I was getting more and more upset as he had definitely started following me; he matched me turn for turn.

The rear view mirror is NOT where I should have been looking. I missed the stoplight ahead of me and broadsided a Toyota pickup. I plead guilty in court with my explanation. Luckily, the Judge dismissed the case and commended me for honesty.

Others have given you good, solid advice.

Try to stay calm and disengage. Cell phone call to the police is a good idea, as long as you can pay attention to the road. No rude gestures, no yelling.
Try not to make eye contact, and try not to stop.

To this day I still do not know what was wrong with Mr. Jerk.
 
You should have ignored him and kept on driving.

I've had this happen to me before, if you ignore them and refuse to acknowledge their existance they'll feel like idiots and give up. Drive off to a very public place if you can't get away, the more witnesses the better.

Now I keep one of those folding shovels in my passenger seat for a reason.

1. To dig myself out of any ditches in the winter.
2. To smack a guy in the head with if I need to.

If you can't get away and that guy moves to assault you then I would rather have a weapon to fight back.

Also you need to start working out and eating more. :D
 
There is no car I cannot outrun. (ok maybe a 911 turbo or ferrari)

First I slow and let them pass, if they persist, it is hammer down, 2 minutes at 130+ and they are out of sight and I find someplace safe to go.

I would not recommend the tactic unless:
1. You have the right vehicle
2. you know how to drive that fast
3. you are ok with the potential ticket

This is what I would have done. If you get pulled look relieved and say the guy behind you tried to ram you.
 
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