Robbed at Gunpoint this week - taking ?s
- Thread starter newbie4help
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rainbowbob
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I'm not confident that would work anywhere but in the movies. What if it makes the BG mad and he shoots you? what if he tells you to pick it up? The odds on that scheme don't seem so good.
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Scott Skawronska
Member
Yo homie, is that my briefcase?
I'd probably die trying; I'm not too bright and I have an ego about getting killed by a frimping amateur. Already come too close a couple of times. This time I'm older, have an attorney on retainer, and seasoned pistol skills.
I'll bet my life on them.
Your mileage may vary.
S
Not sure if this was covered elsewhere as I just skimmed all the prior posts - but many bad guys usually do well in laying a trap. They may have lookouts, escape routes and diversions potentially set up in advance. City areas with tall buildings and alley-ways provide ideal hiding places just around the next corner or block. Parking lots with many cars allow a car full of people to be almost hidden in plain sight. The burbs make it harder to hide or approach without some warning.
I tend to park in quite open areas, usually less occupied with plenty of visibility all the way from where I exit a mall or building to my vehicle. I want to see them coming at me or have them stand out if they are going to approach along the way. However, this open area parking approach is a possibility in the suburbs where I live, and cities are very different and more easily advantaged to the criminals who seem to thrive there. I realize this particular approach isn't too much help for city living.
When I did commute to the city for night school, I tried to always park on the street, under a lamppost, and in the same general area. That way I began to know the usual cars parked there, the usual faces of people, and even the regular activities. By knowing the people, cars, people and things around your girlfriend's place, it might have given you some more warning, but perhaps not.
I tend to park in quite open areas, usually less occupied with plenty of visibility all the way from where I exit a mall or building to my vehicle. I want to see them coming at me or have them stand out if they are going to approach along the way. However, this open area parking approach is a possibility in the suburbs where I live, and cities are very different and more easily advantaged to the criminals who seem to thrive there. I realize this particular approach isn't too much help for city living.
When I did commute to the city for night school, I tried to always park on the street, under a lamppost, and in the same general area. That way I began to know the usual cars parked there, the usual faces of people, and even the regular activities. By knowing the people, cars, people and things around your girlfriend's place, it might have given you some more warning, but perhaps not.
Comment on Comments - Robbed at Gunpoint
Excellent thread you triggered, newbie4help. Thanks!
Some comments on comments:
1. Tossing an armed keyfob is a great idea that I have not heard of before. Thanks, Chieftain. It is really two distractions, the flight of the fob in a direction calculated to divert the BG, and the blare of your car horn from another. How to deploy this dual distraction effectively is worth its own thread. Tossing to the same side of you as your car is might be advisable, otherwise the BG's gun is going to sweep you and your companion as he scans both distractions. By causing BG to turn in only one direction to scan two distractions, you gain more time to counterattack or escape. Way to trash his OODA loop! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop
2. The fake money clip distraction is often mentioned, but I don't recall a single report of its effective (or failed) use. Even a couple of successful instances does not mean that the strategy is sufficiently dependable. If reliable stats exist on the subject, they would be of interest.
3. Armedandsafe's comment # 27 also brings up something new. I usually carry my Glock 26 or KelTec P9 in my right cargo pants pocket, which permits a natural 'wallet draw" (as long as I keep my facial expression appropriate).
4. "that being said...NEVER TURN AROUND! as a long time police trainer, guys dont ever give in unless you must (and since you [the OP] were unarmed i dont blame you.)"
So what do you propose to do in the specific circumstances, Janobles14?
5. "To quote Massad Ayoob, "Never draw on a drawn gun." I quote the James Bond's film title: "Never Say Never". Don't falsely limit options. I'd modify the advice to "Never draw on a drawn gun without an effective distraction and plan, OR the opportunity and ability to physically divert the BG's weapon and follow up effectively" (which most of us probably have not adequately trained to do).
6. Quote: "I don't think this was a case of not being "situationally aware" because 1) it's a parking lot - you expect to see cars and 2) we couldn't have seen them where they were parked." Unquote.
"No. It is mostly about being "situationally aware." The BGs will intentionally pick spots and conditions such as your parking lot scene to do their dirty deeds. As sm points out, you (and we) must pick up the signals of a threat early when it appears."
I have to disagree. One can be highly situationally aware, but the threat may exhibit NO "signals", instead being effectively concealed (by stealth, dissimulation, ambush, etc) until too late, as Joe Cool points out. The answer to this criticism usually amounts to "you should have anticipated anyway", as FCFC asserts; however, that argument is circular.
Situational Awareness is not a talisman any more than a gun is. SA just tilts the odds in your favor, like the gun does.
Provocative comments! No disrespect intended to anyone I disagree with. Lots of material for further discussion!
Excellent thread you triggered, newbie4help. Thanks!
Some comments on comments:
1. Tossing an armed keyfob is a great idea that I have not heard of before. Thanks, Chieftain. It is really two distractions, the flight of the fob in a direction calculated to divert the BG, and the blare of your car horn from another. How to deploy this dual distraction effectively is worth its own thread. Tossing to the same side of you as your car is might be advisable, otherwise the BG's gun is going to sweep you and your companion as he scans both distractions. By causing BG to turn in only one direction to scan two distractions, you gain more time to counterattack or escape. Way to trash his OODA loop! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop
2. The fake money clip distraction is often mentioned, but I don't recall a single report of its effective (or failed) use. Even a couple of successful instances does not mean that the strategy is sufficiently dependable. If reliable stats exist on the subject, they would be of interest.
3. Armedandsafe's comment # 27 also brings up something new. I usually carry my Glock 26 or KelTec P9 in my right cargo pants pocket, which permits a natural 'wallet draw" (as long as I keep my facial expression appropriate).
4. "that being said...NEVER TURN AROUND! as a long time police trainer, guys dont ever give in unless you must (and since you [the OP] were unarmed i dont blame you.)"
So what do you propose to do in the specific circumstances, Janobles14?
5. "To quote Massad Ayoob, "Never draw on a drawn gun." I quote the James Bond's film title: "Never Say Never". Don't falsely limit options. I'd modify the advice to "Never draw on a drawn gun without an effective distraction and plan, OR the opportunity and ability to physically divert the BG's weapon and follow up effectively" (which most of us probably have not adequately trained to do).
6. Quote: "I don't think this was a case of not being "situationally aware" because 1) it's a parking lot - you expect to see cars and 2) we couldn't have seen them where they were parked." Unquote.
"No. It is mostly about being "situationally aware." The BGs will intentionally pick spots and conditions such as your parking lot scene to do their dirty deeds. As sm points out, you (and we) must pick up the signals of a threat early when it appears."
I have to disagree. One can be highly situationally aware, but the threat may exhibit NO "signals", instead being effectively concealed (by stealth, dissimulation, ambush, etc) until too late, as Joe Cool points out. The answer to this criticism usually amounts to "you should have anticipated anyway", as FCFC asserts; however, that argument is circular.
Situational Awareness is not a talisman any more than a gun is. SA just tilts the odds in your favor, like the gun does.
Provocative comments! No disrespect intended to anyone I disagree with. Lots of material for further discussion!
newbie4help
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Sorry it's taken time to get back; I've been busy moving this past week since I finished my job for the summer.
1) No different route I could have taken - car was literally a beeline from the stairs.
2) No indication they didn't belong. They were black, but it's a city and there's lots of blacks. No weird dress or anything. Also we couldn't see them where they were parked.
3) What would I do differently? Convince my gf to live in a better place, as people have said. They and their car really didn't stick out too much. It's not worth your safety to be cheap to save money.
4) Excellent idea about diversion and drop wallet. Come to think of it, I dropped the blackberry and the wallet, and be bent down to get it! Tossing it behind him might even be better, as it would give you a chance to run or draw on him. Maybe one on ground in front, one behind for good measure. Even me as a novice could've gotten a bead on him in that period. I think after I get my concealed carry license I will carry a dummy wallet around like that.
I don't think dropping on ground would ever "anger" a robber any more than whatever else happens in the course of a robbery, since it's a pretty natural reaction - just an "empty your pockets" routine really quick on the ground seems normal. Tossing it at or behind them might be a little fishy I suppose - by my sense (just guessing from my experience) is the robber is not calm and collected, and probably would grab at the wallet without thinking.
For any sort of diversion/counterattack to work though you would have to stay cool and collected. I was kind of proud of myself to have the presence of mind to tell my girlfriend not to argue (she kinda got panicky and weird) and give him her stuff, and also for me to remember to not look at his face. It would take serious practice with somebody pretending to be a BG to really get your mental state where you can stay cool enough to do a distraction/counterattack.
I have a further suggestion - don't know if this is a good idea or not. I know some people have pocket revolvers capable of being fired from inside clothing - if you somehow could aim with that thing that would be a really good way to attack. Of course it would require you to walk with your hand in your jacket pocket anytime you walked somewhere fishy - that might be over the top and an accident waiting to happen.
As an update: I am in the process of getting my CHL, and I got a light/laser for my handgun for use at home - this experience made me realize how much adrenaline could affect you so having a light to see in the dark and a laser so I don't even have to aim with sights (which takes time) seemed appropriate. Also, the light blinds you very easily (I foolishly looked at the beam in the mirror) which would be great in a home invasion. It's also possible, by holding the gun out far from your side and using laser/light combo, to create a false target and still get shots off.
But weapons are only 1/10th of the process of getting ready for stuff like this I think - and I think they can lure many into a false sense of security. Guns alone do not make you any safer - in fact they can do the opposite. It's having it and knowing very well how and when to use it that is important. I have not even begun to get to the point where I am ready, but I will start now. I am not buying anything else gun/weaspon related - the rest of my preparedness will be things like we talked about on here - avoiding stuff in the first place, being aware of your surroundings, handgun training, and having a diversion planned. Also keep going to the gym so you can run when you need to
.
1) No different route I could have taken - car was literally a beeline from the stairs.
2) No indication they didn't belong. They were black, but it's a city and there's lots of blacks. No weird dress or anything. Also we couldn't see them where they were parked.
3) What would I do differently? Convince my gf to live in a better place, as people have said. They and their car really didn't stick out too much. It's not worth your safety to be cheap to save money.
4) Excellent idea about diversion and drop wallet. Come to think of it, I dropped the blackberry and the wallet, and be bent down to get it! Tossing it behind him might even be better, as it would give you a chance to run or draw on him. Maybe one on ground in front, one behind for good measure. Even me as a novice could've gotten a bead on him in that period. I think after I get my concealed carry license I will carry a dummy wallet around like that.
I don't think dropping on ground would ever "anger" a robber any more than whatever else happens in the course of a robbery, since it's a pretty natural reaction - just an "empty your pockets" routine really quick on the ground seems normal. Tossing it at or behind them might be a little fishy I suppose - by my sense (just guessing from my experience) is the robber is not calm and collected, and probably would grab at the wallet without thinking.
For any sort of diversion/counterattack to work though you would have to stay cool and collected. I was kind of proud of myself to have the presence of mind to tell my girlfriend not to argue (she kinda got panicky and weird) and give him her stuff, and also for me to remember to not look at his face. It would take serious practice with somebody pretending to be a BG to really get your mental state where you can stay cool enough to do a distraction/counterattack.
I have a further suggestion - don't know if this is a good idea or not. I know some people have pocket revolvers capable of being fired from inside clothing - if you somehow could aim with that thing that would be a really good way to attack. Of course it would require you to walk with your hand in your jacket pocket anytime you walked somewhere fishy - that might be over the top and an accident waiting to happen.
As an update: I am in the process of getting my CHL, and I got a light/laser for my handgun for use at home - this experience made me realize how much adrenaline could affect you so having a light to see in the dark and a laser so I don't even have to aim with sights (which takes time) seemed appropriate. Also, the light blinds you very easily (I foolishly looked at the beam in the mirror) which would be great in a home invasion. It's also possible, by holding the gun out far from your side and using laser/light combo, to create a false target and still get shots off.
But weapons are only 1/10th of the process of getting ready for stuff like this I think - and I think they can lure many into a false sense of security. Guns alone do not make you any safer - in fact they can do the opposite. It's having it and knowing very well how and when to use it that is important. I have not even begun to get to the point where I am ready, but I will start now. I am not buying anything else gun/weaspon related - the rest of my preparedness will be things like we talked about on here - avoiding stuff in the first place, being aware of your surroundings, handgun training, and having a diversion planned. Also keep going to the gym so you can run when you need to
.glockman19
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Another good reason to pocket carry.
You did the right thing and are safe and they are caught.
You did the right thing and are safe and they are caught.
JERRY
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situationla awareness.....a car stops close to me, my hand starts coming out of the pocket with a snubbie in it....if its nothing but a spilled drink that made them stop suddenly they wont even see it(gun), but if its a robbery i will at least have first shot.
im not saying it cant happen to me, but i do not let anyone in "my space" within reason without being ready to do something other than say "[uh oh]".
im not saying it cant happen to me, but i do not let anyone in "my space" within reason without being ready to do something other than say "[uh oh]".
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LongRider
Member
In Washington it is legal to use lethal force to stop a dangerous criminal from a fleeing the scene of a violent crime they committed if you believe they may be a threat to others. In that scenario I do not know about shooting them as they fled but if it was safe to do so planting a couple of bullet holes in the car may make it easier for the police to identify may be an option
Phil DeGraves
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The problem is you never know how anything is going to turn out. In this case, since everything turned out okay, we can say he did the right thing. But when it is happening, you just never know. I know of cases where the victim is compliant and the BG just shoots them anyway after they get the wallet. Or they kill the next victim. I'd be second guessing myself from now to kingdom come if that happened to me. On the other hand, with people around, engaging the suspect could result in injuries to the innocent bystanders, either by your shots or (more likely) by his, and then you open yourself up to all that second guessing again. Not to mention the legal hassles that will be heaped upon you. It's pretty much a crapshoot. Only you can tell at the time.
One thing, though. All you guys carrying pocket pistols (myself included): If you knew that you were going to be attacked, would you carry what you carry everyday or would you go for something bigger? And, how many rounds is it going to take to stop an attacker?
Funderb
Member
Kudos, very few people have the humility to admit that. That was refreshing.
Glad you made it out all right.
IllHunter
Member
To elaborate..
on the idea of a "throw away wallet", perhaps we might consider carrying cash seperate from identification. My real wallet stays with me, the money clip (for weight) goes to the perp. If he wants to count, he has to remove the clip. Usually it's what he's after and we get to end game.
I see the greater threat from the id loss. The perp may show up to get more. I have only once "lost" my wallet and had to cancel cards and get new id etc. I have no desire to do that again. And that's the "minor" reprocussion.
Thanks for your frankness and for starting a great thread. As I see it, you won. you kept your skin intact and hers' too. I don't know what your financial loss was, but I 'll bet you'd be willing to double it to get away unscathed again. Your attitude on learning impresses me and hopefully others on this site. Congratulations on a successful learning experience.
on the idea of a "throw away wallet", perhaps we might consider carrying cash seperate from identification. My real wallet stays with me, the money clip (for weight) goes to the perp. If he wants to count, he has to remove the clip. Usually it's what he's after and we get to end game.
I see the greater threat from the id loss. The perp may show up to get more. I have only once "lost" my wallet and had to cancel cards and get new id etc. I have no desire to do that again. And that's the "minor" reprocussion.
Thanks for your frankness and for starting a great thread. As I see it, you won. you kept your skin intact and hers' too. I don't know what your financial loss was, but I 'll bet you'd be willing to double it to get away unscathed again. Your attitude on learning impresses me and hopefully others on this site. Congratulations on a successful learning experience.
eric.cartman
Member
Glad you're OK, and thank you for sharing. Scarry stuff.
Now for some S&T...
I ALWAYS carry a pocket pistol in a nemesis pocket holster (Ruger LCP recently), and I ALWAYS have a gun in my hand when I walk down parking lots and other unknown teritory. Nobody knows of course. Bu the gun is out of holster and in my hand. From there I can draw very quickly and point shoot at a target at close distance.
Anyone else does that? Or am I paranoid
Also, awareness is the key! It saved my butt once before when wife and I were unloading groceries into a car, and I saw "them" coming from 30 yards away and measuring me up and down. Two of them. 10 yards, and I put the shopping cart between us, and put my hand on my gun. They saw that and instantly found Jesus
Now for some S&T...
I ALWAYS carry a pocket pistol in a nemesis pocket holster (Ruger LCP recently), and I ALWAYS have a gun in my hand when I walk down parking lots and other unknown teritory. Nobody knows of course. Bu the gun is out of holster and in my hand. From there I can draw very quickly and point shoot at a target at close distance.
Anyone else does that? Or am I paranoid
Also, awareness is the key! It saved my butt once before
when wife and I were unloading groceries into a car, and I saw "them" coming from 30 yards away and measuring me up and down. Two of them. 10 yards, and I put the shopping cart between us, and put my hand on my gun. They saw that and instantly found Jesus Exmasonite
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wow... glad everybody came out of it ok. absolute shivers down my spine reading that he said "turn around".
Question to you/the board:
Running: 2 options here... just turn and burn at 1st sign of trouble or take off after the "turn around" command? granted a textbook "broken field run" is in order but is this feasible? haven't tried it but thinking that 2-3 seconds could hopefully give me 5+ yds additional distance (i'm a decently fit guy in my late 20's but no Carl Lewis). given that gun wasn't pointed directly at OP, wondering if it'd be advisable. Even armed, i doubt i'd ever try to get the drop on the guy. he'd get my wallet and i'd pray that's all he wanted.
Question to you/the board:
Running: 2 options here... just turn and burn at 1st sign of trouble or take off after the "turn around" command? granted a textbook "broken field run" is in order but is this feasible? haven't tried it but thinking that 2-3 seconds could hopefully give me 5+ yds additional distance (i'm a decently fit guy in my late 20's but no Carl Lewis). given that gun wasn't pointed directly at OP, wondering if it'd be advisable. Even armed, i doubt i'd ever try to get the drop on the guy. he'd get my wallet and i'd pray that's all he wanted.
chieftain
Member
Might work if you are young enough, and capable. But in the OP's case he was with his lady. Would you just leave her there and let the VCA take his anger and possible vengance out on her? Or if you are with your children, your own mother i.e. or in that sort of situation with others?
It is a lot different when you are not by yourself.
Another consideration related to my first comment. You ain't going to get any younger. Some of us stay in better shape than others as we age, but most of us get slower, fatter, old war wounds and other medical conditions and disease take their toll.
I will leave you with several quotes.
Fred
"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!" -- Jeff Cooper
"The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, anytime, and with utter recklessness" --Robert Heinlein
"It’s not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what’s required." --Sir Winston Churchill
"One ought never to turn one’s back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half." --Sir Winston Chruchill
I'm glad everything worked out and you both are safe. About the only additional thing I can offer is to always have a plan. Not only by yourself but with your girlfriend. Make sure she is on the same page as you going forward regarding any other incidents that may (God forbid) take place.
I have found that varying your routine ,like where you park, how you enter and leave places(even if you have to walk across the lot a bit) helps you observe the lay of the land and potential problems. Some apartment buildings are kind of hard to do this as some only have one entrance and exit ,but you don't always have to be in that first slot by the door.
Thanks for sharing.
Michelle
I have found that varying your routine ,like where you park, how you enter and leave places(even if you have to walk across the lot a bit) helps you observe the lay of the land and potential problems. Some apartment buildings are kind of hard to do this as some only have one entrance and exit ,but you don't always have to be in that first slot by the door.
Thanks for sharing.
Michelle
Well im glad your all safe and they caught the perps. I dont always wear my vest and dont carry all the time. Plan for the unexpected? Well situational awareness rains king but you really have to ask yourself what could happen and am I prepard? Makes me think twice about maybe wearing my vest out and about lol.
Exmasonite
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chieftain-
oh yeah... forgot the part about the lady. no way i'd have left her... good point.
but if alone, i wonder if a retreat attempt may have been an option...
oh yeah... forgot the part about the lady. no way i'd have left her... good point.
but if alone, i wonder if a retreat attempt may have been an option...
I've always wondered if I would be ready for something like this, and this points out that no matter what you do or how much you think you train, circumstances can overcome your best training.
I have a very Liberal friend that got robbed at gunpoint at his front door in a nice neighborhood. The perps would have been out of place, a car full of guys and a guy walking toward you. His reaction afterwards blew my mind. He said that the guy probably needed the money. Go figure. As it went, no one got hurt, just like this situation.
My worry would be two fold. First, if I did not react properly, could I escalate the situation. Second, if I did nothing and the worst happened, could I live with it. Occam's razor.
I have a very Liberal friend that got robbed at gunpoint at his front door in a nice neighborhood. The perps would have been out of place, a car full of guys and a guy walking toward you. His reaction afterwards blew my mind. He said that the guy probably needed the money. Go figure. As it went, no one got hurt, just like this situation.
My worry would be two fold. First, if I did not react properly, could I escalate the situation. Second, if I did nothing and the worst happened, could I live with it. Occam's razor.
I agree with you and Massad on this one. Drawing on a drawn gun seems like a sure way to get shot at. Of course, if you think you're going to get shot at anyway, better to go down drawing your weapon instead of your wallet. If you believe you're going to get shot at anyway, better to be moving, ducking for cover, behind cover, drawing your gun to at least keep from getting shot at or shot the second time than to stand there and take it like, "May I have another, Sir?"
Hopefully, if ever in the situation the OP was in except that we're armed, I hope we make that call right.
BullsEye10x
Member
First of all, I am glad to hear that the OP and his girlfriend survived this encounter. Reading this thread has also made me realize a few things:
1. I need to work on maintaining situational awareness at ALL times. No matter how tired, distracted, comfortable, etc. I feel. Stuff like this usually happens when you least expect it.
2. Houston is full of scumbags, and they are multiplying (I already knew this, but stories like these are good reminders)
3. I need to step up my physical fitness routine and increase range time, so that I will be able to deal accordingly with scumbags should I happen to encounter one ... To quote one of my fellow Marines: "Train like you fight, and you will fight like you train".
Stay safe out there!
1. I need to work on maintaining situational awareness at ALL times. No matter how tired, distracted, comfortable, etc. I feel. Stuff like this usually happens when you least expect it.
2. Houston is full of scumbags, and they are multiplying (I already knew this, but stories like these are good reminders)
3. I need to step up my physical fitness routine and increase range time, so that I will be able to deal accordingly with scumbags should I happen to encounter one ... To quote one of my fellow Marines: "Train like you fight, and you will fight like you train".
Stay safe out there!
blackcash88
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eric.cartman said:
Not, not paranoid. I do this as well.
Wow, Man, i was about to leave the thread until I found out it was in Houston. Well similar story happened to my now wife.
She came home from work at 11 pm to her parents' apartment in Chinatown. It was gated but apparently the perps followed a car in (or were let in) and just waited for the empty "reserve" spot owners to park. well, She came home, park in her reserve spot, put her stuff in her purse, engine running and all and then shut the engine off and walked toward the small wooden door (front patio). Then a man in all black clothing (hoodie, cap, jeans) jumped out and demanded her purse. She screamed but complied because he pulled the gun out though not directly pointing it at her. The guy asked for her car keys as well but she pleaded (????) for him not to take her car. To her surprise he said "okay but don't follow me" He took her keys but he said he'll drop it in the corner. He took off in another car.
When her parents woke up and came down seconds later, the guy was laready gone, and they found the keys exactly where he said he'll drop it. to this day I thank God that he did not force her to drive off with her in the car and he didn't use the gun on her. oh well, we're moving to a different neighboorhood now.
She came home from work at 11 pm to her parents' apartment in Chinatown. It was gated but apparently the perps followed a car in (or were let in) and just waited for the empty "reserve" spot owners to park. well, She came home, park in her reserve spot, put her stuff in her purse, engine running and all and then shut the engine off and walked toward the small wooden door (front patio). Then a man in all black clothing (hoodie, cap, jeans) jumped out and demanded her purse. She screamed but complied because he pulled the gun out though not directly pointing it at her. The guy asked for her car keys as well but she pleaded (????) for him not to take her car. To her surprise he said "okay but don't follow me" He took her keys but he said he'll drop it in the corner. He took off in another car.
When her parents woke up and came down seconds later, the guy was laready gone, and they found the keys exactly where he said he'll drop it. to this day I thank God that he did not force her to drive off with her in the car and he didn't use the gun on her. oh well, we're moving to a different neighboorhood now.
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