Ruger M77, fails to fire, or maybe a real Bolt Action!!

[dragoon-brit]

This a little long!! my first post!

I have a 1983 Ruger M77 Bolt-Action Rifle, two position safety (Tang?). I purchased it new, but never shot it much, always used a Bow for Elk/Moose and a 257 Roberts for Deer/Antelope. I never like the trigger. Now age tells me to use a Gun. So I had a Timney install by a Tucson, Az Gunsmith (Murphy’s). Love the trigger feel, as good as my custom 257 but:
-------
First round: safety on, pulled trigger, flipped safety off, gun fires!

Back to Murphy’s (4hr round trip): Gunsmith said a wood chip was caught in the trigger!

Second round fired: safety on, pulled trigger, safety off, pull trigger, 10 seconds click bang~

Back to Murphy’s: They had fired the gunsmith, but Murphy look at it him self:: checked “OK”.

Third round fired: pulled trigger, heard click, waited 15 min., touch bolt, bang!!

NOW I am Ruger shy!! Scarey!! Glad I was at the Range!!

So here is where I am at now:

I purchased a box of factory loads: 10 shots fired fine, loaded a reload, only fired when I touched the bolt.

Took the gun home dry fired 30-50 times: never failed.

Load a box with just primer: 10 failed until bolt is touched!

A friend suggested case length: Checked/trimmed cases, loaded primers:: 16 fired, 1 failed and 3 would not load, poped the primers on the three and they loaded!

Loaded a 3rd box, rechecked case length, this time I cleaned primer seat, installed primers. All loaded but 1 failed until bolt was touched!

So I have learned that case length is critical, but I still think that these are symptoms: 19 or 20 is no good.

I suspect that the trigger is not adjusted correct, or bad. I cannot find a manual on line, or a Timney web site. My install manual is at Murphy’s somewhere. I only see one adjusting screw.

Could it be not releasing the firing pin all the way, or the bolt closing but now seating all the way? I do not see any signs of head separation.

Last: anyone know of a GOOD gunsmith in Southern Arizona?

Any help/suggestion would be appricated.

 

[BevrFevr]

I'm no expert but I would blame your reloads before I would blame the gun. Sounds like it is good with the factory ammo.

 

[dragoon-brit]

Reloads

I would agree: except!

When it fails: The bolt seats but firing ping does not move until the bolt is touched.

The last 20 test rounds, 1 still failed, these were very carefully check and reloaded. The only other thing different (than factory) is I do not resize the whole case.

I have been reloading for this gun 20 + years, not a lot of rounds (8-10 boxes) and never had a failure, untill they installed a new trigger.

I still suspect the trigger!

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[fineredmist]

Have you looked at the sear operation with the bolt removed? Have you checked the mating surfaces of the bolt and firing pin? Have you removed the action from the stock and watched the trigger in action? Have you cleaned out the firing pin channel in the bolt? Is the center action screw too tight? It can flex the receiver and misaligne the firing mechanism, all this screw does is hold the front of the trigger guard in place. When assembling the rifle you tighten the front and rear screws a little at a time until they are snug and then do the center and do not tighten it as much as the other two.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nuts and Bolts

Sounds like the bolt isn't quite making it to full battery. Try bolting the rifle forcefully and see if it fires. If it does...Bolt it slowly and watch to see if the bolt springs back up a tiny bit when you release it.

 

[BevrFevr]

again don't trust my word on this but

everything you say gives me more clues like...

you don't resize the whole case...

which is setting up an equation in my head it goes something like this...

fire formed brass + bad head space - resizing = bolt not seating correctly = discharge after bolt manipulated.

Anyone else agree here.

Personally I would not buy a Ruger bolt rifle if I was spending your money but that is just me. I still think it is your reloads.

Take some of your reloads to some one that can tell you if they meet the dimensions of the round you are shooting.

Rugers have a great reputation for strength which is why so many goofballs test uber hot loads in them. they eventually fire five or ten loads that scare the crap out of em and viola another cheap ruger on the market with bad head space.

But what do I know. I am not joking when I say I am making this stuff up as I go along.

 

[musher]

Try putting the factory trigger back in and see if the problem goes away.

 

[BevrFevr]

my bad I see you have bought this NEW! disregard everything I said except the part about the reloads.

 

[hoghunting]

Sounds like the bolt isn't quite making it to full battery. Try bolting the rifle forcefully and see if it fires. If it does...Bolt it slowly and watch to see if the bolt springs back up a tiny bit when you release it.

I'm with 1911 Tuner on this one. Does your Ruger have the cutouts for factory rings or did you have to install bases? Some of the older style Rugers were made for bases and rings - not the factory rings. If you installed bases, check the front two screws to be sure they aren't interfering with the bolt.

 

[Jim K]

Let me see. You have no problems until you have someone install a new trigger system, then you have problems and everyone blames the ammunition?
Come on, guys; that is quite a stretch!

Timney trigger systems (which include the sear) are OK, but they must be installed properly. That was obviously not done, and perhaps someone played with the cocking piece in the process. If you can't find someone to install the trigger correctly, get it out of there and put the original trigger back in. At least it was not dangerous and what you have now is very dangerous.

Jim

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

BevrFevr, Don't go bashing Rugers. If you don't have anything nice to say. Don't say a thing.

I'll second the option of installing the original trigger first. Take it right back to the way it was. Make sure, that by eliminating the change, (new trigger), that things work properly. --With Factory and Reloaded Cartidges--

I haven't full length resized a bottle neck cartridge in years. Brass fire formed from one rifle stays with that rifle. The only time to full length size is when loading unfired, or brass from a different chamber. (and most of the time you still don't need to)

So, I'm going to lean that you know what you're doing when reloading.

When you finally deduce that the 'smithing' is the issue, Get on the horn to the shop owner and get a refund for the labor since you're obviously going to have to adjust things yourself.

Let's discuss movement of the bolt then she fires. Rotate bolt or push forward? It should not move forward. Pressure up or down on the bolt handle -then she fires, would still indicate that the trigger is not adjusted properly.

I have seen the scope ring screws interfere with bolt movement. Verification isn't difficult.

Anyone that can reload, can swap out a trigger group.

Timney triggers aren't difficult either. Depending upon the model, there's two or three screws. Not too difficult to figure out which one does what. Especially for a sporter model trigger for a hunting rifle. Pre-travel, sear tension, and over-travel are your choices.

It is quite possible that the smith did test the trigger with the action out of the stock. Torque on the action when inserted into the stock with tightened screws 'could' present a firing issue. But a properly adjusted trigger should not do this.

What blows me away, is that the early R77 trigger is adjustable. No reason to change one out. (Not 77 MKII ) No, it's not a match grade trigger, but they can be made quite nice for a hunting rifle. The R77 varmint trigger is just as adjustable as the Timney. There's a thread here on THR that discusses that trigger.

Timney's website seems to be broken right now..
https://www.solidrocktechnologies.com/TimneyTriggers/timneytriggers.php?page=home

-Steve

 

[dragoon-brit]

Some answers, & thanks

I do appreciate the feedback on this, but I have not sorted it all out! A couple comments for now:

This Ruger has cutouts for factory rings, so no problem there.

I decided to get a new Timney trigger, maybe based on poor info, but I purchased it, and then decided I wanted a pro to install it::: problem is I did not get the factory trigger back. At the time I could not imagine I would need it! now I wish!!!!!!!!!

I found that lighter loads (based on my limited experience) shoot better groups, I have never shot a hot load, unless it was factory from this gun. I did loan the gun to my son-in-law (now ex) for a couple years, but I doubt he could/would reload.

I do not resize the full case length, but if the bolt fully closes, I can not imagine this is the problem and every thing I see tells me the full case resizing is not a good idea.

So I think what I need to do is find a good Gunsmith! We are taking a long trip in a couple weeks: Tucson to Sister/Bend ,Or (spent a month with grand babies) then on to Central Wi (Stevens Point area), and back to Az.

I asked before about a good gunsmith in Southern Az, I'll extend that request to Oregon, Wisconsin and points in between.

 

[gezzer]

Your gunsmith ruined your rifle. Have the shop that hired him send the rifle to Ruger for repair. They wrecked it make them fix it.

Ruger will restore it back to factory.

 

[jeepmor]

It sounds like an adjustment issue to me, like the sear release has not been set properly, but very close. Touching the gun setting it off may mean that it needs to be adjusted to move just a hair more. But I'm no gunsmith, just an mechanical engineering type with a propensity for all things that require tools to work on.

I would contact Sportsman's Warehouse in Bend, Oregon and ask them to refer you to a local gunsmith. There are a lot in that area. There is a fellow that has a Safari Club International (SCI) patch on his vest that was real helpful in directing us out into coyote country. I forgot his name, dark haired guy, about 45-50 y/o I'd guess. Good guy to chat with.

And if you're going to do any shooting in that area, there is a public (aka free) 100 yard rifle range about 20 minutes east of town off Hwy 26. It is on the left side of the road and a good place to check the work if you have any done. But out there, pretty much 10 minutes east of town you can safely shoot about anywhere. And if you want to shoot ground hogs, don't be shy, go up to ranchers houses and just ask. Some will even supply you with ammo if it matches your gun. Grass might be getting a little tall this time of year though.

Regardless of where you have the work done, it is advised to find a range and check out the function before you put too many miles between yourself and the gunsmith. Particularly coming from Arizona, that's quite a ways. Sportsman's Warehouse fellas are also a good resource for places to hunt and shoot if that is also on your agenda. Lot's of coyotes, ground hogs and jackrabbits to shoot at out there and plenty of antelope to gaze at through the binoculars. If you have a truck, you can go about anywhere. And even if you're just in a car, you can still easily get many miles away from the road safely.

If you want any more info, just PM me, I've been out that way about 2-3 times since Thanksgiving.