S&W's worst years

Status
Not open for further replies.

RSVP2RIP

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
791
Location
NE Illinois
What was Smith and Wesson's worst years as far as fit and finish go? I heard that following the Dirty Harry movies that M29's suffered because they couldn't keep up with demand. Just got a model 15-3 serial # 8K425xx, as far as I can tell it's between 67-77 telling from the -3. Maybe someone can clarify the exact year? It looks unfired and it went for $460, which is a little undervalued for around where I live. I'm just not hoping that the trigger feels like a pound of sand is in there. They had the hammer zip-tied so I couldn't try it.
 
Dirty Harry had nothing to do with anything.
The Vietnam war did.
They couldn't make enough J & K frame guns to meet the demand.
And so did the S&W family losing control of the company.

So the worst had to be the Bangor Punta or Tompkins LLC eras!
http://www.gjenvick.com/BangorPunta/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomkins_plc

Bangor Punta was a large conglomerate who took control of S&W and immediately shipped some of the machinery to south America for Taurus to use. Which they also owned.
They also immediately diversified the product line. So a master polisher or fitter might have been making revolvers one week and making S&W bicycles or hand-cuffs the next.

Tompkins was a British conglomerate who was far more interested in government contracts and satisfying Bill Clinton's gun control demands then making guns for civilians.

That was followed by a group of employees buying the company back in 2001.
By then, hand fitted guns were too expensive to remain competitive on the marketplace, and many of the old craftmen had retired or otherwise left what remained of the company.
So a huge change took place in new CNC tooling, less skilled labor, and less fitting & finishing.

rc
 
Last edited:
Well, it was an overly simplified history perhaps.
But still pretty much what happened to the fine old company, and the fine guns everyone wishes S&W still made.

And not lose money on every one they sold.

rc
 
I can remember a lot of really bad years for S&W, especially during the Bangor Punta ownership era, and then later when Lear-Siegler aquired Bangor Punta.

As for the Dirty Harry Model 29 infatuation, I remember one local dealer who was told by his S&W distributor that if he wanted to get a Model 29, he had to order a dozen Model 10's. And even so, many of the Model 10's had problems right out of the box.
 
I have heard the Bangor Punta rant all of my life and I own a couple that are just as high quality as the ones before and after that period. There have been good and not so good S&Ws throughout the history of the company. I have a Bangor Punta Model 57 that is the finest revolver I have ever fired and plan on keeping it forever. Some of the guns that S&W have put out in the last 10 years are by far the worst I have ever seen. Not all of them but some of them.
 
Generally speaking, the only ones I am interested in now days are the pinned and recessed models. There are a few neat things that have my attention, but the custom perfomance center 500 magnum I spent 1350$ on isn't even close to as nice as the 27-2 I spent 340$ a month later.
 
Anything after 82 when the pinned barrels and recessed magnum cylinders went away.

But far and away the worst was the advent of the internal lock. Pretty much that was the end. So the Tomkins PLC era was the end of the S&W as we knew it.

Even Bangor Punta wasn't terrible. My favorite S&Ws are Bangor-Punta era guns. At least the skilled craftsmen still worked there especially in the beginning.

Nowadays they are all machine fitted CNC and MIM parts. No craftsmanship anymore. Finishes are not very good. Now just a consumer product instead of an investment.
 
I have heard the Bangor Punta rant all of my life and I own a couple that are just as high quality as the ones before and after that period.

Same here. I've never noticed enough difference to take note of. I'm about 50/50 in before BP and during.

I've got a couple of newer ones, and one of them even has the lock. I don't particularly like the lock but it still seems to be just as well made as the older guns. Someone will have to show me the difference someday.
 
Current production revolvers from the company calling itself S&W have me longing for the Bangor Punta era.

At last the barrels were not all canted then. :)
 
A 'lil story about a particular 29.

Prior to the 'Dirty Harry' series of movies, 29's were redially available for about MSRLP. After the movie came out, the street price was anywhere from $750.00 to $900.00! As one of the posters noted; wholesalers demanded retail dealers buy all kinds of other stuff to get a 29.

In 1979 Montgomery Ward sold guns. MG's policy was they sold guns for MSRLP. They listed the 29 in thier catalog. Of course none of thier stores ever had one in stock. One day, one of the 2 MG Stores in Tacoma WA gets in a 6.5" 29!

The sporting goods manager calls my friend, whom he knows wants a 29. He tells him it's there and will be priced @ $253.00! It was between paydays. While my friend was trying to borrow that amount (lots 'o luck), a customer walks into the other MG store and asks about a 29. The sporting goods manager of the other store looks on the computerized inventory sheet and sees the other store has one. He calls the other manager and asks if it sold yet. The other manager tells him a customer is looking @ it as they speak. He calls my friend and says "if you're gonna buy it, it has to be right now. If nit the other store is sending a stock boy over to p ick it up for a customer that's standing there w/ $ in hand.

My friend had to let it go...
 
Last edited:
Well, by now, most of the problems from the Bangor-Punta era have long since been addressed and repaired, I can imagine.

I think the late 70's-80's was a low point in fit and finish for S&W (and all gun manufacturers, really). Of course, now we have....
 
Just got a new 625 JM from them where one of the cylinder chambers had burrs so bad that fired casings were stuck to the point of needing a screwdriver to get it out. It shows that they never fired a full set of 6 out of it at the factory. That said, their no questions asked warranty is nice.
 
I'd have to say that the period covering the 70's & 80's, and at least part of the 90's, wasn't all that terrific for getting a great S&W revolver right out of the box. I much preferred the reliability, robust design and durability of the Ruger Security-Six series in the 70's & 80's. I was a bit ambivalent about Colts (when it came to running them hard).

Unfortunately, the Security/Service/Speed-Sixes were so easily found and bought that I let far too many of them slip through my hands when I was attracted by something else shiny & new as a young man. I only have a single Service-Six Heavy Barrel left from that time, albeit it's a nicely tuned and modified example that I intend to keep. ;)

I like the SP101's, and I have a nice early model Redhawk, but both of them required some repair & correction when new, too, so it's not like anything is always perfect.

The GP's have never really interested me, for whatever reason, although I might pick one up someday if I find one for the right price with a 3" barrel without the full length lug. Just depends.

I miss the nice bluing of the older S&W's, but I don't miss their older stainless finish. The new guns aren't what I might call 'stellar' in their finish, but they're easier to work on as an armorer in many respects.

The cost of making a S&W revolver they way it was done in the 'old days' would be cost prohibitive. It used to take 75 machining steps to make an old model revolver frame, with the necessary hand operation, while new frames only require 3 machining steps before heat treat (w/o barrel). Old model hammers required 7 machines (with operators) and new MIM hammers are much quicker (and made to closer tolerances).

Kind of like thinking Colt could make the Python again for an affordable price and sell them for enough money to make them profitable. (Wanna spend more than 2 grand on a new hand-fitted Python? Probably not enough folks would want, or be able, to do so for it to be worthwhile investment in either time, labor or overall cost.)

I kind of wish I'd taken the S&W revolver class back when my friend (former, retired armorer) took it. He said they gave you a stripped frame to which a yoke had been fitted and polished together. Everything else had to be fitted to the frame in order to assemble a new revolver during the course (and you got to buy it at the end of the class, which apparently gave some incentive to the student to do it right).

Folks can always buy a Taurus nowadays, if they don't like S&W's or Ruger's.

I suspect the market on used S&W's & Colt's is going to continue to rise as supply & demand rises.

The other S&W revolver armorer, and I, at my former agency have been seeing an increase in older S&W revolvers either being brought back out of the closets and dusted off for carry, or used ones being bought and brought in for qualification, and some of what we've seen inside them has made the new model guns look downright clean, crisp and nicely fitted.

The grass is always greener. Even weeds can look green amongst the grass, though.
 
Amazing! Montgomery Ward had computerized enventory in 1979! With a Model 29 priced at $253,no wonder they aren't around anymore.
 
American Handgunner ran a piece complaining about the Bangor Punta era. But this was after the Bangor Punta era ended, and for the entire Bangor Punta era every article in print was extremely positive on S&W revolvers.

I concluded the article was simply to get people to buy new S&W's and deflect them from old S&W's.

Gunwriters after all, are simply shills for the industry. Nothing goes into print that is not positive about industry products.

Most of my Smith's are from the Bangor Punta era, and I am happy with them. I am certain there were turkeys.

I have new S&W's, and I think the machining is outstanding. I wish they kept the hammer mounted firing pin, don't care for the lock.

Change is never 100% perfect.
 
Here's one shill who's returned a couple new Smiths unfired & cancelled an article.
And one shill who has a perfectly fine Bangor Punta Model 28.
And one shill who could make sweeping generalizations about all Internet posters named Slamfire1, but won't. :)
Denis
 
If by "Worst Year" regarding the large number of warranty returned guns,
My pick is for This Year

I've no idea how accurate that is, but my brand new 686 is currently awaiting repairs. Smith told me it would be late January before those repairs would be done. Customer service was helpful, but it seems like they deal problems constantly.

I might look at some Rugers next time.
 
I bought brand new a 19-4 in 1979 that was a 1978 manufacure, and within the first box of ammo I put through it the ejector backed out enough to lock up the cylinder.

And the factory grips (still on her 32 years later) are the most horibble mis-matched pair of wood grips I've ever seen. One grip is a dark reddish brown, and the other grip is a light blonde. But they're stayin'.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top