Safe VS RSC -Rant-

[Torghn]

I consistently see people on here post something to the effect of "That's not a safe it's a residential security container." or "You don't have a real safe, you have a RSC, real safes cost thousands of dollars".

I have to say this is total BS. A Safe is defined as:
–noun
8. a steel or iron box or repository for money, jewels, papers, etc.
9. any receptacle or structure for the storage or preservation of articles: a meat safe.

or from wikipedia:
A safe (also called strongbox, coffer or kist) is a secure lockable box used for securing valuable objects against theft or damage.

I don't argue that what many of you call safes are are more secure than what you refer to as RSCs, but how can a community (and I'm part of this too) that nit picks the definition of Magazine and Clip totally ignore the actual definition of the word safe? That's like saying an Hi-Point C-9 isn't a firearm, it's PLT (personal lead tosser). It may not be your favorite or even as "good" as a glock or 1911, but it certainly is a firearm.

/rant

 

[JWarren]

Why do I have a sudden urge to pop some popcorn?


-- John

 

[a1abdj]

If you're going by dictionary definition, then a simple bell attached to your door could be an "alarm". However, I doubt your insurance company would recognize it as such.

Same with safes. Insurance companies have set standards that determine what is and is not a "safe". The "safes" with an RSC rating clearly state on the tag "Residential Security Container" whereas the "safes" at the bank have a burglary tag that clearly states "Burglary Rated Safe".

I call them all safes myself, although I always want to be technically correct so as not to confuse consumers any more than they already are.

By the definition you posted, this little guy is a "safe" too, although I would call it a "Child's Toy"

 

[lanternlad1]

Ok, what is this then?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=88847

(Not my thread, just has good pics.)

My insurance guy thinks its good enough for my policy, and a few FFL guys I've spoken to think its good enough for an FFL.

What say the gods of firearms protection?

 

[Torghn]

I don't mind people calling them RSCs, it just bugs me when someone specifically tells someone that what they have isn't a Safe. I don't know why it bothers me, I've always been a stickler for semantics.

It was just a rant and not directed at anyone specific.

 

[Torghn]

lanternlad1, I would definitely call that a safe.

 

[Librarian]

I've always been a stickler for semantics.

Me, too.

So here's a work-around:

Describe the device as a "Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device" as used in 18 USC 922 (z), and then describe that "device" in terms of its burglary resistance (as published by the Safe Source)

Burglary Ratings

* B1 — Theft resistant (minimum security)
* B2 — Underwriters’ Laboratories Residential Security Container label
* B3 — Non-rated anti-theft (incorporates features of high security safes
without a UL rating)
* B4 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-15 label
* B5 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30 label
* B6 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label

UL Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) - UL is a non-profit, non-bias agency that tests and rates the safety and performance of consumer products. Safes that have earned specific UL ratings will carry a UL label which designates the product's security and fire-protection ratings.

* Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.
* Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.
* Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
* TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.
* TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.
* TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
* TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

Note UL's vocabulary change at TL-15.

 

[akodo]

the dictionary only good in defining technical words in simple laymen's terms.

Take a look

"8. a steel or iron box or repository for money, jewels, papers, etc."

Repository for papers.



Dictionary Definition means that is a "safe"

I changed it to a metal box for you

it depends if you read it as (a steel or iron box) or (repository for money, jewels, papers) OR
(a steel/iron box) or (a steel/iron repository for money, jewels, paper)

 

[ColinthePilot]

That looks like a wooden box, not steel or iron.

 

[a1abdj]

My insurance guy thinks its good enough for my policy, and a few FFL guys I've spoken to think its good enough for an FFL.

What say the gods of firearms protection?

I say it's a Chinese safe that may very well be using a simple solenoid lock. If this is the case, I could "bounce" it open in less than 10 seconds.

If i couldn't bounce it, I could drill for the combination set button, which would take me 30 seconds. I could locate this button easily after looking at the floor display of a similar unit at Costco.

Then again, a bad guy may or may not know what I know about that particular safe.

Describe the device as a "Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device" as used in 18 USC 922 (z), and then describe that "device" in terms of its burglary resistance (as published by the Safe Source)

I believe their "B" system is their own, but they are on the right track.

I could get into a long explanation of safe ratings, but to keep it simple:

The minimum "safe" construction is a B rate, which would have a 1/4" steel wall and a 1/2" steel door. From there it goes to C, E, and F.

According to UL, their minium requirement for a safe is a TL-15, which would be similar in construction to an E rate.

I still call Sentry document "safes" safes, even though they are plastic and aluminum. I wouldn't keep anything valuable in them, but they are great for protecting paperwork.

 

[lanternlad1]

"I say it's a Chinese safe that may very well be using a simple solenoid lock. If this is the case, I could "bounce" it open in less than 10 seconds.

If i couldn't bounce it, I could drill for the combination set button, which would take me 30 seconds. I could locate this button easily after looking at the floor display of a similar unit at Costco."

I only asked you what you thought of it, not how to defeat it.

But you, in your arrogance decided to show the world how much you know, post your methods for defeating a safe that very many people, including many members of THR, own.

On a public forum that I'm sure many unsavory types read.

I hope you're proud of yourself.

Sense you are so securely minded, I'll make sure to tell all my friends to buy their safes from you, since that is the only way you will not tell total strangers how to defeat safes.

 

[a1abdj]

I only asked you what you thought of it, not how to defeat it.

But you, in your arrogance decided to show the world how much you know, post your methods for defeating a safe that very many people, including many members of THR, own.

I don't know that it can be bounced. I said it may very well.

Of course, who would buy a safe if they knew somebody could open it without the combination in a few seconds while leaving no visible trace?

If those that know don't tell those who don't who will? Do you think the manufacturer will give that warning in the owners manual?

Of course if you bolted the safe down, bouncing may or may not be a viable option.

I was also pretty vague. I'm sure if you do a quick search on Youtube, you can find a 13 year old in a video giving you step by step instructions.

Sense you are so securely minded, I'll make sure to tell all my friends to buy their safes from you, since that is the only way you will not tell total strangers how to defeat safes.

I take the security of my customers very seriously. 15 years in business and counting, so I must be doing something right.

 

[lanternlad1]

"I take the security of my customers very seriously."

Apparently you don't take the security of Costco's customers very seriously. Just yours. Like I said.

"15 years in business and counting, so I must be doing something right."

Yeah, you keep mum about how to defeat the safes YOU sell.

Nice try.

You were wrong. Admit it.

Just because someone can find the info somewhere else, doesn't mean you should go blabbing it around. You had to be the big shot expert, and the only way to prove it is to tell millions of people how to break into a safe you don't sell.

I bet if you sold this safe, you'd have kept your mouth shut.

You make me sick.

 

[hso]

I have to say this is total BS.

No it isn't. We have had at least 2 experts in the field of safes explain this repeatedly. There are objective criteria for an RSC an for a "safe". They are based on how quickly/easily the thing can be breached. This isn't a clip vs mag question, it's a marketing hype playing upon the uninformed vs the professional definition issue.

I have 2 RSCs and a Safe. I know the RSCs can be breached with an ax in well under 15 minutes. I know the Safe is rated to withstand that attack for much longer. As a result I put the most valuable items in my collection into my Safe and the lesser items that can be easily replaced by insurance in the RSCs.

 

[kingpin008]

You make me sick.

Wow, someone's got a bug up their butt.

 

[a1abdj]

You were wrong. Admit it.

Not even close.

The lock on your house can be bumped! OH NO! Now the whole world knows how to break into your house.

Just because someone can find the info somewhere else, doesn't mean you should go blabbing it around. You had to be the big shot expert, and the only way to prove it is to tell millions of people how to break into a safe you don't sell.

Not close again. I consult with my customers so I can make sure the product I'm selling them can meet their needs. Costco doesn't do that.

My customers are free to choose whichever product they want AFTER I explain to them what they need. Full disclosure.

I bet if you sold this safe, you'd have kept your mouth shut.

I don't sell safes that are security related with that type of weakness. The only "safes" that I sell with similar types of locks are document safes. Of course document safes aren't designed to be secure from theft, merely from fire.

You make me sick.

I'd tell you how to feel better, but I woudln't want to violate any medical ethics.

 

[JWarren]

Over his time at THR, a1abdj has done a great deal in EDUCATING THR members about what to look for in buying a safe and has never reserved his assistence only for people that buy from him.

Already, he as helped me from making costly mistakes in protecting my property.

Honestly, it sounds to me that if someone gets mad about what he may say, it is more a fuction of knowing they have less protection than they thought they have.

He's not telling any criminal anything that a quick search on "da interwebz" couldn't find-- and probably already has found. What is HAS done has informed US of what to look for before making a $$$$ mistake.


In my humble opinion, a1abdj's contributions to this forum cannot be discounted and should be respected.


-- John

 

[blkbrd666]

LOL...A PLT on an RSC.

 

[larry_minn]

WOW. I bought a "safe" that may not meet many folks's idea of what a "safe" is. (Fort Knox) I have seen a similar safe opened up with common tools most any guy with a shop has. IIRC the smith said the "Idiot owner" had his house broken into and they tried to open it with axy/sledge/etc. Broke off handle/lock face/etc but failed to open safe.
So he used "won't say what tools" and had it open in less then half hr. The locksmith said he could have opened it in less time and the without ruining the safe.

 

[a1abdj]

LOL...A PLT on an RSC.

I don't want to be arrogant and tell everybody what I know......

But, the proper use of your RSC is to place the weapon inside as opposed to on top.

I won't give you too much grief, because I doubt your owners manual explained it.

 

[blkbrd666]

But, the proper use of your RSC is to place the weapon inside as opposed to on top.

ROTFLMAO...I ran out of room inside, so I put it up there to protect it from short criminals.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Now here's some information that'll make some of the posters feel real good. There is no standard in the industry that mandates what may, and may not, be named "safe".

In other words, if I take six of my business cards and tape them together, put a pin across a corner to "lock" it, and can convince you the consumer that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and exactly what you need for valuables storage, I can call it a safe & sell it to you. If you're gullible enough to pay me money for it, so what; caveat & all that.

Or, you can pay attention to the very solid advice given here by the safe professionals and act accordingly. The distinction is made in order to help people here at THR trying to make an informed decision. A1abdj gives good advice, those who turn their nose up at it are shortchanging themselves. The pity is, just like the man selling the cardboard "safe", the nay-sayers may actually convince somebody else that they are right.

900F

 

[hso]

lanternlad1,

No one told anyone HOW to get into any RSC. Saying that the RSC could be bounced doesn't say HOW that would be accomplished with the particular RSC. Saying that the safe could be drilled doesn't say HOW that could be accomplished. There's a huge difference between saying WHAT could be done and HOW it would be accomplished. How a thing is done is the key.

I've learned a lot from our two safe experts. Enough to consult with local safe experts who have confirmed what they've told us all here. That's why I own a safe AND RSCs. They serve two similar, but not identical purposes and I do not confuse the two if I want to protect my valuable property.

 

[HIcarry]

I bet if you sold this safe, you'd have kept your mouth shut.

You make me sick.

And you'd probably lose that bet! I can tell you that a1abdj's ethics are beyond reproach.

In my case, he spent a considerable amount of time educating me while I researched what safe (or RSC) to purchase. When it came time to buy, he insisted that I purchase from someone else because I could do so for less because of shipping. For all of his help and education, I would have been happy to pay a little more to buy from him.

If you suffer any ill effects from your encounter, it is likely because you aren't used to dealing with folks of such high moral character....

 

[JohnBT]

"I have to say this is total BS."

No, it's not.

John

P.S. - "that nit picks the definition of Magazine and Clip"
Those two words do not need to be capitalized, they're not proper nouns.