NOMADCHRIS
Member
DOES ANYONE OWN A SAGE EBR STOCK FOR THE M1A1 RIFLE? DO YOU LIKE IT? IS IT WORTH THE INVESTMENT? AND DO YOU HAVE ANY PICS
Sage ebr for m1a1
- Thread starter NOMADCHRIS
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NO, IT'S NOT AN INVESTMENT UNLESS YOU CAN SELL IT (USED?) FOR MORE THAN YOU PAID. AND IT'S A M14, YOU STILL CAN'T MOUNT A SCOPE OVER THE BOLT, WHICH LIMITS YOUR OPTIC CHOICES.
Other than that, it's reputedly the stock of choice used to refit the M14 for use in Afghanistan. It's reported many units keep them racked, not much need for them in suburban patrols or searching houses. IED's on roadways are the bigger problem now.
AR10 pattern rifles are preferred by those with choices, SEAL Team Six has reputedly used a CM901 in .308 to good purpose lately. Case in point.
Other than that, it's reputedly the stock of choice used to refit the M14 for use in Afghanistan. It's reported many units keep them racked, not much need for them in suburban patrols or searching houses. IED's on roadways are the bigger problem now.
AR10 pattern rifles are preferred by those with choices, SEAL Team Six has reputedly used a CM901 in .308 to good purpose lately. Case in point.
Jeremy2171
Member
Don't forget to look at the Troy MCS....
There are at least 20 different ways to mount a scope "over the bolt" using a Sage stock.
The Troy is too heavy and requires additional add on iron sights if you want them.
I have been fiddling with a Sage EBR stocked Spring Inc. BUSH rifle for a little over a year now.
I think the basic stock assembly is expensive, almost as expensive as buying a second used M1A rifle, think about that before you jump.
Accuracy has improved over the fiberglass GI stock I had on the rifle, it really isn't any heavier, about 1/2 pound increase in weight. Adding a bipod and heavy target scope will kick up the weight of the basic platform.
I'm not convinced I like the futuristic space look of the rifle, other than that I have nothing really bad to say about the stock system besides the cost.
Negative feedback coming from Troopers is mainly due to the fact they trained and are used to the M16/M4 platform and the EBR/Interdiction M14 rifles were dumped on them with little training and inadequate support.
I wouldn't be too awful thrilled with the platform either if I was in their place.
They see the AR10 type rifles in service and covet them because that is the weapon system they are most accustomed to.
Performancewise there is no major difference between the AR10 and the M14 rifles with the exception that the AR10 rifles ARE easier to clean and maintain, mainly because of that inadequate training and support issue.
The Troy is too heavy and requires additional add on iron sights if you want them.
I have been fiddling with a Sage EBR stocked Spring Inc. BUSH rifle for a little over a year now.
I think the basic stock assembly is expensive, almost as expensive as buying a second used M1A rifle, think about that before you jump.
Accuracy has improved over the fiberglass GI stock I had on the rifle, it really isn't any heavier, about 1/2 pound increase in weight. Adding a bipod and heavy target scope will kick up the weight of the basic platform.
I'm not convinced I like the futuristic space look of the rifle, other than that I have nothing really bad to say about the stock system besides the cost.
Negative feedback coming from Troopers is mainly due to the fact they trained and are used to the M16/M4 platform and the EBR/Interdiction M14 rifles were dumped on them with little training and inadequate support.
I wouldn't be too awful thrilled with the platform either if I was in their place.
They see the AR10 type rifles in service and covet them because that is the weapon system they are most accustomed to.
Performancewise there is no major difference between the AR10 and the M14 rifles with the exception that the AR10 rifles ARE easier to clean and maintain, mainly because of that inadequate training and support issue.
henschman
Member
Yeah, Tirod was wrong. The Sage in no way limits your scope mounting capabilities -- you can use any receiver scope mount that you can with a GI stock.
As for whether it is a good investment, you will have to decide for yourself -- you can expect better accuracy and more modularity, but they do weigh at least 2 lbs. more than a GI stock. For more/better info, you should check out www.m14tfl.com.
BTW, it is called an M1A, not an M1A1. M1A1 variously refers to a .45 submachine gun, a .30 carbine with a folding stock, or a tank.
As for whether it is a good investment, you will have to decide for yourself -- you can expect better accuracy and more modularity, but they do weigh at least 2 lbs. more than a GI stock. For more/better info, you should check out www.m14tfl.com.
BTW, it is called an M1A, not an M1A1. M1A1 variously refers to a .45 submachine gun, a .30 carbine with a folding stock, or a tank.
same shoes
Hey Nomad, Sorry I only had time for a short <deleted> comment the other day. I am in kinda the same shoes you are. I've been wanting to get my paws on a Sage EBR and a Troy MCS for sometime before dropping the $800 for either. The M14 type shooters I know are pretty much purist who either can't or won't modify their rifles too much with the matches they shoot. I can see why, the G.I. stocks just feel right to me, and I really don't want to improve one of my favorite rifles so much that its not improved.
Just don't let someone steer you wrong, with or without a stock modification there are plenty of good mounts out there that put you pretty low and centered on the bolt and get it as close to your eye as you would want. I have heard that the A.R.M.S #18 is among the best, and it will be the next mount I buy.
Goodluck.
Jeremy how do you like you MCS
In this world there is fertillizer and just plain <deleted> you have to sort what to grow your mind on.
Hey Nomad, Sorry I only had time for a short <deleted> comment the other day. I am in kinda the same shoes you are. I've been wanting to get my paws on a Sage EBR and a Troy MCS for sometime before dropping the $800 for either. The M14 type shooters I know are pretty much purist who either can't or won't modify their rifles too much with the matches they shoot. I can see why, the G.I. stocks just feel right to me, and I really don't want to improve one of my favorite rifles so much that its not improved.
Just don't let someone steer you wrong, with or without a stock modification there are plenty of good mounts out there that put you pretty low and centered on the bolt and get it as close to your eye as you would want. I have heard that the A.R.M.S #18 is among the best, and it will be the next mount I buy.
Goodluck.
Jeremy how do you like you MCS
In this world there is fertillizer and just plain <deleted> you have to sort what to grow your mind on.
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henschman the standard SAGE stock is heavier.
The EBR stock which uses an M4 carbine extension tube and M4 stock of users choice has additional lightening cuts, and is a bit shorter up front and I can assure you it only adds about 1/2 pound to the base rifle verses a fiberglass stock.
I know this because I own one.
They are naturally heavier when you add a bipod, vertical fore grip, scope and mount, etc, but so is a base rifle when these things are added.
The EBR stock which uses an M4 carbine extension tube and M4 stock of users choice has additional lightening cuts, and is a bit shorter up front and I can assure you it only adds about 1/2 pound to the base rifle verses a fiberglass stock.
I know this because I own one.
They are naturally heavier when you add a bipod, vertical fore grip, scope and mount, etc, but so is a base rifle when these things are added.
I'm another one that was originally interested in a Sage stock to use on one of my own rifles until I had the opportunity to play with one whilst installed on an M14 service rifle at work. I didn't care for it as much as I thought I would in the end.
FWIW..... Here are a few things that might be of interest to you.
1. The type we were issued did add 2lbs to the rifle overall, and this is on an average. I have had around 30 different USGI synthetic stock over the yrs, and found that they do not all weigh the same. Variances were up to 1.7 lbs. ( I would have to look at my notes to give more exact figures, but am currently deployed, so do not have access to them at this time.)
I have not had the opportunity to weigh one of the newer Springfield Armory Incorporated (SAI) plastic stocks as of yet, but hear that they outweigh the GI synthetics on average.
2. The Sage stocks that I have had in my mitts all had the cutouts for the selector lever, as these stocks are being used for actual M14's. I do not have a use for them when it comes to my POF M1A/M14S types, as mine are all purpose built semiautomatic only receivers. also learned the hard way that the "gaping hole" provides for convenient/direct access to the trigger group for all sorts of nasty stuff found in nature. ( I once had a danged acorn fall out as I removed the trigger group from the stock one time
)
Don't get me wrong here.... I prefer to be with nature, as long as nature stays outa my rifle innards.....lol
Note: Someone out there might have a "plug" designed for this very reason, but am uncertain. the Fulton Armory web page may yield results in regards to this.
3. Expensive. Too much for my budget to handle, and much more $$ as compared to what I have invested in my pile of GI synthetics. I have found Norinco M14S rifles that cost me less.
4. I have no issues with a decent GI synthetic stock, as it just feels right for this type of rifle. As mentioned already..... I would really like to get my mitts on one of the newer SAI plastic stocks so that I can weigh it up against my GI synthetics, as well as a few other comparisons.
5. These same Sage stocks can be used in tandem with several different types of receiver mounts. (Ie..... "over the bolt"). I have personally used a Bassett, ARMS #18, and a Smith Enterprise Inc (SEI) mount along with the Sage stock, and without any issues.
6. As mentioned, the term M1A1 is not the correct nomenclature, but is very close to a model of M1A. This model is referred by SAI as the M1A-A1 Bush rifle, and is trade marked by them, along with the term "M1A".... as of 1973.They should not to be confused with the old government run Springfield Armory, as they produced M14 service rifles, along with GI synthetic stocks in tandem with another company called the General Tire And Rubber CO.
7. Some examples of my favorite rifle
At top = A SAI M1A-A1 Bush rifle
Other = A custom built M14S "Tanker" (Norinco receiver)
note: The reciever mount installed on the M14S = ARMS #18 older "split rail" mount.
I fill the selector lever holes myself......
I estimate the total cost for both stocks to be at $30.00.... to include fill work, prep work, and paint, along with the hand guards plus hand guard clips.
For comparison, the following is an unmodified GI synthetic stock installed on my LRB Arms M14SA Tanker
BTW..... I hope that I'm not coming off as a "know it all" in any way. I was very much into this type of rifle before I got into the internet, and have learned a few mistakes the hard and expensive way. (I hunt with mine)
Most anything M1A/M14 related will cost a few $$, so it is well worth the time for researching things prior to breakin out the wallet imo.
Food for thought at the very least
11B
FWIW..... Here are a few things that might be of interest to you.
1. The type we were issued did add 2lbs to the rifle overall, and this is on an average. I have had around 30 different USGI synthetic stock over the yrs, and found that they do not all weigh the same. Variances were up to 1.7 lbs. ( I would have to look at my notes to give more exact figures, but am currently deployed, so do not have access to them at this time.)
I have not had the opportunity to weigh one of the newer Springfield Armory Incorporated (SAI) plastic stocks as of yet, but hear that they outweigh the GI synthetics on average.
2. The Sage stocks that I have had in my mitts all had the cutouts for the selector lever, as these stocks are being used for actual M14's. I do not have a use for them when it comes to my POF M1A/M14S types, as mine are all purpose built semiautomatic only receivers. also learned the hard way that the "gaping hole" provides for convenient/direct access to the trigger group for all sorts of nasty stuff found in nature. ( I once had a danged acorn fall out as I removed the trigger group from the stock one time
)Don't get me wrong here.... I prefer to be with nature, as long as nature stays outa my rifle innards.....lol
Note: Someone out there might have a "plug" designed for this very reason, but am uncertain. the Fulton Armory web page may yield results in regards to this.
3. Expensive. Too much for my budget to handle, and much more $$ as compared to what I have invested in my pile of GI synthetics. I have found Norinco M14S rifles that cost me less.
4. I have no issues with a decent GI synthetic stock, as it just feels right for this type of rifle. As mentioned already..... I would really like to get my mitts on one of the newer SAI plastic stocks so that I can weigh it up against my GI synthetics, as well as a few other comparisons.
5. These same Sage stocks can be used in tandem with several different types of receiver mounts. (Ie..... "over the bolt"). I have personally used a Bassett, ARMS #18, and a Smith Enterprise Inc (SEI) mount along with the Sage stock, and without any issues.
6. As mentioned, the term M1A1 is not the correct nomenclature, but is very close to a model of M1A. This model is referred by SAI as the M1A-A1 Bush rifle, and is trade marked by them, along with the term "M1A".... as of 1973.They should not to be confused with the old government run Springfield Armory, as they produced M14 service rifles, along with GI synthetic stocks in tandem with another company called the General Tire And Rubber CO.
7. Some examples of my favorite rifle
At top = A SAI M1A-A1 Bush rifle
Other = A custom built M14S "Tanker" (Norinco receiver)
note: The reciever mount installed on the M14S = ARMS #18 older "split rail" mount.
I fill the selector lever holes myself......
I estimate the total cost for both stocks to be at $30.00.... to include fill work, prep work, and paint, along with the hand guards plus hand guard clips.
For comparison, the following is an unmodified GI synthetic stock installed on my LRB Arms M14SA Tanker
BTW..... I hope that I'm not coming off as a "know it all" in any way. I was very much into this type of rifle before I got into the internet, and have learned a few mistakes the hard and expensive way. (I hunt with mine)
Most anything M1A/M14 related will cost a few $$, so it is well worth the time for researching things prior to breakin out the wallet imo.
Food for thought at the very least
11B
nice rifles Fragout
Were the issue Sages' you ran accross the model 0 with the HK type retractable stock ? I heard that the model 1 with the M4 stocks have lost about a pound or so. Although, I'm not sure I'd want the weight lost on the shoulder end.
If your wanting the weight on the newer SA Synthetics I have one I picked up on trade. I would be glad to weigh it, and get you a comparison weight, with fiber glass and wood (several of them setting around)
Give you something to roll around for a future project when you get back.
Be safe out there.
Were the issue Sages' you ran accross the model 0 with the HK type retractable stock ? I heard that the model 1 with the M4 stocks have lost about a pound or so. Although, I'm not sure I'd want the weight lost on the shoulder end.
If your wanting the weight on the newer SA Synthetics I have one I picked up on trade. I would be glad to weigh it, and get you a comparison weight, with fiber glass and wood (several of them setting around)
Give you something to roll around for a future project when you get back.
Be safe out there.
Thanks DoobyDoo. I would be interested in your findings, in regards to your SAI plastic stock. Not only the weight, but any other things about it that you notice. Some close up pics of the stock would be great too.
BTW..... Does this stock sport a metal flip up buttplate, or a rubber buttpad?
The Sage stocks that I had my hands on were of the mod 0 retractable stock variety. Haven't handled the M4 collapsible Sage stocks personally.
No hands on with the Troy either, but I cant see myself interested in giving up the use of the M14's iron sights for any reason.
11B
BTW..... Does this stock sport a metal flip up buttplate, or a rubber buttpad?
The Sage stocks that I had my hands on were of the mod 0 retractable stock variety. Haven't handled the M4 collapsible Sage stocks personally.
No hands on with the Troy either, but I cant see myself interested in giving up the use of the M14's iron sights for any reason.
11B
Jeremy2171
Member
DoobyDoo:
It handles well and I can put any AR stock on it....right now I have an ACOG on it and am going to see how well I like that compared to the Elcan...the ACOG is 1/2lb lighter though..as it sits in that pic it weighs 13.4lbs...with the ACOG just under 13. A little heavy but you get used to it and it really keeps the muzzle down in the offhand stages...
I'm waiting for someone near me to get a SAGE to see if I "really" like it. If I do then I might go the SAGE route...
RE: iron sights...makes no difference to me if they are BUIS or M14. The M14 sights are great sights however if optics are your primary they are a little over complicated just for backup use. Not many shooters will be running a SAGE across the course in a NRA hipower match and need that huge amount of adjustment or finesse.
My BUIS are KACs and they are zeroed at 300m right now and the rear (KAC 0-600)is adjustable to 600m if needed with windage. To me this is more than acceptable for 95% of all civilian shooters needs. JMHO.
I do like the straight line of the MCS stock and the reduction of recoil (along with the weight) the single top rail is also a plus since I can swap different optics on for different uses without worring about a need for a "cheek riser". Eotech, Aimpoint, Elcan, ACOG,Trijicon Reflex, Leupold M4, and AN/PVS-4 all go on with no tweaking...
It handles well and I can put any AR stock on it....right now I have an ACOG on it and am going to see how well I like that compared to the Elcan...the ACOG is 1/2lb lighter though..as it sits in that pic it weighs 13.4lbs...with the ACOG just under 13. A little heavy but you get used to it and it really keeps the muzzle down in the offhand stages...
I'm waiting for someone near me to get a SAGE to see if I "really" like it. If I do then I might go the SAGE route...
RE: iron sights...makes no difference to me if they are BUIS or M14. The M14 sights are great sights however if optics are your primary they are a little over complicated just for backup use. Not many shooters will be running a SAGE across the course in a NRA hipower match and need that huge amount of adjustment or finesse.
My BUIS are KACs and they are zeroed at 300m right now and the rear (KAC 0-600)is adjustable to 600m if needed with windage. To me this is more than acceptable for 95% of all civilian shooters needs. JMHO.
I do like the straight line of the MCS stock and the reduction of recoil (along with the weight) the single top rail is also a plus since I can swap different optics on for different uses without worring about a need for a "cheek riser". Eotech, Aimpoint, Elcan, ACOG,Trijicon Reflex, Leupold M4, and AN/PVS-4 all go on with no tweaking...
henschman
Member
Fragout, according to my scale, my SAI plastic stock weighs 2.2 lbs, and my rifle weighs 8.4 lbs. unloaded with it installed (mine is a Springfield with a 22" GI chrome lined barrel). The stock has a rubber butt-pad that adds about half an inch LOP over a GI metal buttplate. It will accept a GI buttplate though, and it does have storage tubes -- they are a plastic insert that screws into the stock.
The plastic stock feels a bit lighter than my buddy's GI fiberglass. I have not weighed his though. I am actually looking for a fiberglass stock to put this rifle in -- it is an older Springfield with all GI parts, and would be more "authentic" in a glass stock.
The plastic stock feels a bit lighter than my buddy's GI fiberglass. I have not weighed his though. I am actually looking for a fiberglass stock to put this rifle in -- it is an older Springfield with all GI parts, and would be more "authentic" in a glass stock.
Thanks for the info henschman.
A few questions regarding the SAI plastic stock...
Have you tried to stick a cleaning kit into the tubes? If so, did it fit as should?
What color is it, and is the color painted on, or is the plastic itself that color?
11B
A few questions regarding the SAI plastic stock...
Have you tried to stick a cleaning kit into the tubes? If so, did it fit as should?
What color is it, and is the color painted on, or is the plastic itself that color?
11B
I have the
Springfield Composite at 2.452 lbs with all components, the one I have has a mossy oak breakup camo pattern, it doesn't look painted on, it looks like, well, you know how they overlay/impress/weld the faces on lego people, as they are molded. lol
The well in the buttstock looks just like the GI fiberglass ones I have,
2 aprox. 1/2" holes
USGI fiberglass at 2.892 lbs with all components except the buttplate nut (which I need 2 of if anybody knows where I can get some or a substitute, if it works I don't care its under the plate)
A GI birch weighed in at 2.720 with all comp.
And here's the kicker, the lightest of them all. Chinese Polytech (don't know the wood type, but the grain looks just like the Chinese SKS's just stained darker) 2.368 lbs with all comp (weighed with GI Bplate don't have the original for it)
I'll try to get a couple pics some time, be safe bro
Springfield Composite at 2.452 lbs with all components, the one I have has a mossy oak breakup camo pattern, it doesn't look painted on, it looks like, well, you know how they overlay/impress/weld the faces on lego people, as they are molded. lol
The well in the buttstock looks just like the GI fiberglass ones I have,
2 aprox. 1/2" holes
USGI fiberglass at 2.892 lbs with all components except the buttplate nut (which I need 2 of if anybody knows where I can get some or a substitute, if it works I don't care its under the plate)
A GI birch weighed in at 2.720 with all comp.
And here's the kicker, the lightest of them all. Chinese Polytech (don't know the wood type, but the grain looks just like the Chinese SKS's just stained darker) 2.368 lbs with all comp (weighed with GI Bplate don't have the original for it)
I'll try to get a couple pics some time, be safe bro
henschman
Member
Fragout, the Springfield plastic stock will fit a GI combo tool, GI chamber brush, and the little grease capsules with the yellow lids that are made for the M1. That's all I've put in it. They look large enough for a GI cleaning kit with the cleaning rod sections, but I don't use that kind of cleaning kit on mine so I'm not sure.
The stock is black, and it is molded that color, not painted.
FYI, my buddy had a SAI with the mossy oak stock, and it was actually a GI fiberglass stock that was painted Mossy Oak. Also, the SAI black synthetic rifles used to come with a black stock that was a painted GI glass stock -- it was painted with a sort of rough texture paint that was a lot like pick up truck bed liner. It had a lot rougher surface than the plastic stocks they switched to. The Mossy Oak stock my buddy had was that same rough texture paint.
The stock is black, and it is molded that color, not painted.
FYI, my buddy had a SAI with the mossy oak stock, and it was actually a GI fiberglass stock that was painted Mossy Oak. Also, the SAI black synthetic rifles used to come with a black stock that was a painted GI glass stock -- it was painted with a sort of rough texture paint that was a lot like pick up truck bed liner. It had a lot rougher surface than the plastic stocks they switched to. The Mossy Oak stock my buddy had was that same rough texture paint.
Thanks for sharing your findings Doobydoo and henchman.
The weights are interesting, and it does make sense that the Poly stock turned out to be the lighter of the bunch. (Cant remember what type of wood it's made out of either.)
Doobydoo: Check out the Fulton armory website for the nut your needing to finish up your GI synthetic stock. Last I looked, they had them in stock, but I cant remember if they were willing to sell them separate from the synthetic upper screw or not.
11B
The weights are interesting, and it does make sense that the Poly stock turned out to be the lighter of the bunch. (Cant remember what type of wood it's made out of either.)
Doobydoo: Check out the Fulton armory website for the nut your needing to finish up your GI synthetic stock. Last I looked, they had them in stock, but I cant remember if they were willing to sell them separate from the synthetic upper screw or not.
11B
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I was ra-ra-ra-wrong
I took a closer look at the mossey oak stock, the finnish is sprayed on (found some over spray), seems like it is "melted in" like the newer boat paints. It does seem to be a repro of the GI stocks but the pattern of the textured grips on the forearm and behind the trigger are made a little different. The composition of the stock is deffinately a different material (wether this is better or worse I don't know). When I tap the GI stock with a op spring guide it gives a sharper "tunk" return, when I tap the mossey It gives a much duller "thud" return, deffinately softer. Maybe it is fiber glass and the resin is different from back when, or they used less fiber to save money??
That Chinese wood is maybe (from no official sources) Chu wood aka Catalpa aka Catawba. Wirery smaller trees that have foot and a half long beens, and big wide leaves. Had some some where I grew up they get catapillers on the female trees that are great for cat fishin. We climbed all over them getting "catabbi worms", on some pretty small limbs and I don't ever remember breaking any, guess they are pretty strong.
"wonder if nomadchris decided on his sage yet"
I took a closer look at the mossey oak stock, the finnish is sprayed on (found some over spray), seems like it is "melted in" like the newer boat paints. It does seem to be a repro of the GI stocks but the pattern of the textured grips on the forearm and behind the trigger are made a little different. The composition of the stock is deffinately a different material (wether this is better or worse I don't know). When I tap the GI stock with a op spring guide it gives a sharper "tunk" return, when I tap the mossey It gives a much duller "thud" return, deffinately softer. Maybe it is fiber glass and the resin is different from back when, or they used less fiber to save money??
That Chinese wood is maybe (from no official sources) Chu wood aka Catalpa aka Catawba. Wirery smaller trees that have foot and a half long beens, and big wide leaves. Had some some where I grew up they get catapillers on the female trees that are great for cat fishin. We climbed all over them getting "catabbi worms", on some pretty small limbs and I don't ever remember breaking any, guess they are pretty strong.
"wonder if nomadchris decided on his sage yet"
My Mossy Oak camo stock/handguard is also a GI synthetic that SAI used, after they filled in the selector hole, then painted. The pattern is painted on because it has a few places on it where the paint has worn off. It also looks like they used some kind of primer prior to painting it....that is gray in color.
I cant remember what this specific stock weighed out at offhand.
If this stock fits my LRB M14 to my satisfaction, I might just use it instead.
also looking at a future project involving an M14 GI synthetic stock that will be modified to accept an M1 Garand buttplate.
11B
I cant remember what this specific stock weighed out at offhand.
If this stock fits my LRB M14 to my satisfaction, I might just use it instead.
also looking at a future project involving an M14 GI synthetic stock that will be modified to accept an M1 Garand buttplate.
11B
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