SASS Single Action Revolver selection

[dak0ta]

Hi,

I'm debating between a Ruger New Blackhawk and Ruger New Vaquero.

Can I compete with either or does the Blackhawk's sights make it ineligible?

Also, what barrel lengths are considered the best compromise between sight radius and quick draw? 4.5'', 5.5'' or 7.5''?

And in terms of caliber, should I get a Blackhawk convertible that takes 357/9mm or 45colt/45acp? I own a Rossi 92 in 357/38 so that would make sense I suppose.

How does the New Blackhawk handle compared to the New Vaquero? Is it a heavy ungainly beast of power compared to the trim slick handling of the Vaquero?

Also, how is windage on the Vaqueros? Without the adjustable sights, is POI very different from POA? Would the Blackhawk adjustable sights be the deal breaker?

And lastly, why is the Blackhawk less expensive than the Vaquero although it is stronger and has adjustable sights? Cowboy marketing?

 

[calaverasslim]

Either/or will be a fine choice. I believe that using the Blackhawk with the target sights would put you in a different category for CAS.

Barrel lengths are a personal choice but I find 5.5 is great for me but a lot of folk go with the 4.66"

Everything else is your personal choice.

 

[Coyote3855]

I competed in Cowboy Action Shooting for several years. I am not current on the rules, but I think adjustible sights will limit you to the "Modern" category. No big deal, but you should attend a match or two as a spectator before you start spending money on firearms. At most matches, if you show interest and ask questions someone will likely offer to let you shoot their guns. Understand you will need two revolvers, a rifle shooting a pistol caliber, and a double barrel or hammer pump (or lever action) shotgun. I used the original 4 5/8 inch Ruger Vaqueros in .45 Colt, a Uberti 1866 replica in .45 Colt, and a Stoeger 12 ga. coach gun. While Rugers are probably more reliable than Colt clones, I managed to break small parts on both guns after about 10,000 rounds and wear out the Stoeger. The New Vaquero is lighter, better ergonomics. I'd go with them if I was starting over. Short barrels are probably quicker from the holster. Targets are close enough that a longer sight radius is no great advantage.

 

[BCRider]

The rule book you can download from the SASS website has information on what categories the Blackhawk can compete in. And yes, it does limit the categories.

 

[royal barnes]

The Blackhawk can be used in any age-based category. I would go with the Vaquero in .38/.357 and a 5 1/2" barrel. Cheaper and easier to reload and the mid-length barrel gives good handling and sighting plane.

 

[dak0ta]

Why is the Vaquero more expensive?

 

[Kernel]

^^^
Could be "economy of scale" Ruger thinks they'll sell fewer of them so they price them higher, and since it's a new design they need to recover their tooling & marketing cost.

The New Model has been around a long time.

Or maybe they do it because they can. Till you brought it up I didn't know there was a substantial price difference.

 

[dak0ta]

Give or take $75-80+ for the Vaquero. However, the Blackhawk has better sights and a stronger receiver and is bigger. Probably just marketing and demand. I'd probably go with the New Blackhawk, as it'll mainly be a range gun.

Any experience with the convertible models?

 

[rcmodel]

Regardless of all that.

The New Vaquero are the ones you want.

The older Blackhawk is built on a .44 Magnum frame, and is much larger & heavier then you need or want for Cowboy Action mouse fart loads & fast handling from the leather.

rc

 

[dak0ta]

In terms of shooting cast bullets, does everybody shoot SWC, RN, or Flat RN? Can you hunt with lead cast bullets or is a copper jacketed bullet better?

 

[Kernel]

I thought the New Model Blackhawks (.357) were a little smaller than the New Model Super Blackhawks (.44), or is there no difference?

 

[cane]

Ask that question at www.sassnet.com/forum and you will get accurate information. BTW there isn't a "modern" category anymore.

 

[bannockburn]

I have two Blackhawks with 4 5/8" barrels and a Vaquero and a Beretta Stampede with 5 1/2" barrels. Both barrel lengths balance very well in my hand with a slight edge to the longer barrel models as being my preference for having a little more weight out front. The Vaquero in .45 Colt pretty much shoots to POA out to about 15 yards with both factory and handloaded ammo.

 

[joecil]

I went with Uberti/Cimarron with my 3 cowboy action guns. Work great, inexpensive compared to the Ruger line though not as strong it is pretty much like was used in the real west in the late 1800's only with modern metals. I shot in NCOWS which is somewhat different rules than SASS and the Blackhawks are not allowed though the Vaqueros are.

 

[peacemaker45]

You can use the adjustable sights, but only in certain categories. The age based categories and B-Western allow either adjustable or fixed, the black powder categories and shooting style (shooting pistols one handed, or one in each hand, for example) ones require fixed, and Classic Cowboy requires both fixed and .40+ caliber.

There's not really much difference in either sight radius or draw speed between the 4 5/8 and 5 1/2" barrel lengths. Between those two, pick whichever tickles your fancy. 7 1/2", on the other hand is a good deal slower out of and into leather, and the extra sight radius doesn't really do anything to make up for it, as the targets are a foot or more across, and only a few yards away. Camp Perry it ain't.

Of current production guns, there are both Blackhawks and Super Blackhawks, as well as the New Vaquero. The Super Blackhawk is indeed built on a larger frame size. Some people find them to be too big and clunky, while others find that the size either fits their paws better, or that the weight helps control the recoil better. Both the regular Blackhawk and New Vaquero are built on the same, smaller frame size, much closer to the original Colt. As with most things, try and see which your hands like.

As for caliber, .38/.357 is by far the most popular. The brass is cheaper, it burns less powder, and throws much less lead than the bigger bores. This gets important when you consider than an active CAS shooter can easily go through 10,000 rounds a year in match ammo alone, not to mention any practice he chooses to do. .45 Colt is popular for Classic Cowboy, and .44-40 for black powder. Shooting one caliber in both pistols and rifle will simplify your life, so if you've already got a .38 rifle, get .38 pistols, too.

Finally, all sights are adjustable. The difference lies in ease of adjustment. One can be done with a screwdriver, the other may take a file, pliers, a barrel vise, or even a welder, but the job can be done. Most cowboy smiths offer a service to adjust POI to match POA. Once both have been adjusted, the primary difference is that the Blackhawk's sights are bigger and easier to see. They're also blockier and more prone to hang up on the way back into the holster, but then there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Really, though, your best bet is to go to a match before you buy anything. Watch folks. See which of the 31 flavors of shooting looks like the most fun to you, then decide which pistol will best serve your ends. You may decide that the flaming, booming, smoking and reeking of brimstone folks are having the most fun. Or you may feel that the speed demons shooting 150 year old design guns faster than a modern automatic can cycle are the ones to join. Or, you might think that the guys dressed to the nines in chaps, spurs, cuffs, etc, and shooting their handguns one handed, the way God and Sam Colt intended are where it's at. Either way, it's cheaper to decide, then buy, than it is to buy, decide, then buy again.

~~~Jerkline Jesse, SASS #64073, and erstwhile Ohio state champion.

 

[dak0ta]

Regarding shooting technique, do you cock with your grip thumb or your support hand thumb? I've seen both methods done really fast, with the support thumb being a little more popular.

 

[mdThanatos]

Support thumb was quicker for me when I competed in SASS. In regards to the POI/POA with the Vaqueros they usually get set for a certain bullet weight/velocity combo. So if you buy factory ammo and stick with the same type then you can get the sights regulated for it. If you reload and change your recipe after getting the sights regulated for one load you may find it changes your POI.

It's been a few years since I competed but when I did, I used a brace of Blackhawks after getting to try a few other models because they were cheaper than the Vaqueros. If you want to shoot modern ammo through them then get the convertible but if they are going to strictly be your cowboy guns then I wouldn't. Caliber wise I would stick with the .357 combo as it is cheaper to shoot even when rolling your own and you already have a rifle. Not sure if it is still able to be used in SASS or not but if it is, there used to be a gunsmith that did pretty good work on the 92's, think it was Nate Kiowa Jones that he used for his SASS name.

Mat gave a lot of good information and I too suggest going to a match and talking with people. Most times someone will let you shoot some of theirs to give you an idea as to what you want.

 

[peacemaker45]

I shoot with two hands, cocking with the support hand thumb. Depending on how much you practice, that's anywhere from a little to a whole lot faster than the single handed, so called duelist style, because it doesn't cost you your shooting grip at every shot.

Of course, that's not to say that two handed shooting doesn't come in for some ribbing as "squaw gripping." Lol. Ribbing or not, though, it's still faster.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[cane]

Another possible grip is the Ruger "Bisley" which is nothing like the Colt "Bisley" grip. I have 6 Rugers with the Bisley grip, two of the original Vaqueros, two of the new model (smaller) vaqueros, a single six, and a Old Army. Interestingly enough, the grip frames are the same size and the grip panels interchange.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm a huge fan of the Ruger Vaquero especially for CAS. I like the 5.5" barrel most too. That is the way I suggest you go, I did the same...

The one on top is an original Bisley Vaquero in 45 Colt (bigger frame than the New Vaquero) and the 2 on the bottom are New Vaqueros in 38/357.

 

[BCRider]

Regarding shooting technique, do you cock with your grip thumb or your support hand thumb? I've seen both methods done really fast, with the support thumb being a little more popular.

Support hand thumb for sure. It's the hand which is overlayed over your strong hand. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use their strong hand thumb. But if they do then they are still shooting at a disadvantage because they are asking their strong hand to do two jobs instead of one. If by chance they are fast with that method I can only suggest that they could be faster still if they switched and trained to use the support hand thumb.

Two handed certainly seems to be the popular method. I chose to walk the other way and shoot duelist simply because that was how Clint, John and Clayton did it in the movies and TV shows I watched as a kid.....

 

[Bushpilot]

I know you didn't list it as one that you're considering but before you buy a gun for SASS I'd check out the Taylor Smokewagon 38/357.... It's action is super slick....

 

[tubeshooter]

I just wanted to say that the "squaw gripping" line gave me quite a chuckle.

 

[royal barnes]

I started out in SASS 18 years ago shooting duelist. I now shoot gunfighter. I have jokingly used the term "squaw gripper" for some of my friends.

 

[targetshooter22]

One thing not brought up yet is your rifle. It is generally a good thing to shoot the same ammo in your rifle as your pistols. The shotgun is kind of a gimme with many, many options available at pretty low cost.

Do you have a rifle in mind? There are many options, but if you like the 19th century ones of the era, that's pretty much the 66 and 73 from Uberti. 92's and the 94's are still legal for almost all categories. The later models also tend to cost less than the 66 and 73, and are available in more calibers.

Regarding your pistols, this is really more of a personal preference thing. Uberti offers some very nice options and their quality today is quite good, much better than it was 10+ years ago when I started.

Barrel length is another variable, the longer barrels will slow you down on the clock if that's important to you. Personally, I think a Ruger Vaquero with a 5.5" or less barrel points like a club, but that's me not you. As you can read, there any many successful shooters who disagree and I can't say they are wrong and I'm right.

If you are competitive and want to be top in the class, you will need to shoot a lot or at least bring lots of experience with you. If you want to have fun, like to shoot, don't worry, buy what looks good to you, show up, and enjoy. Cowboys are fun and welcoming. Personally, I shoot roughly a half dozen matches a year, wish it was more, but it aint. So that's ~1000 rounds per year, so I don't worry too much about ammo costs.

In case you're wondering, I shoot Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter class in .44 Extra Long Russian (44 mag). My pistols are older model RV's with 7.5" barrels, 92's for my rifles, and some old dog of 12 gauge side by side. Hellfire and brimstone, all hail the Sootlords cuz we laugh more than the others.