SBR Questions

[Whitman31]

I'm in Minnesota and from what I can find, SBR's are not legal. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these points.

I own an AR-15 rifle. I believe I cannot legally remove the stock and replace the barrel with a 10" barrel. Because the receiver does not have "pistol" stamped on it, I believe this makes it an SBR.

If the above statement is correct, can I assume that I cannot put a pistol grip and 15" barrel on my Thompson Encore? If I can do this to my Thompson, then what's different about the two to make it legal?

Thanks,

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

First note that you must comply with BOTH federal AND state law, whichever is more restrictive, not one or the other. I have no idea what MN state law is on SBRs, so you'll have to check it in each of the following cases.

But, as a starting point, for compliance with FEDERAL LAW ONLY, let's look at the AR15-type questions first:

I own an AR-15 rifle. I believe I cannot legally remove the stock and replace the barrel with a 10" barrel.

I believe that is right. The receiver must BEGIN it's "life" as a "handgun" configuration in order to ever be legal to convert to a handgun. Once a rifle (receiver), always a rifle (receiver). You CAN change from handgun to rifle, but you cannot change from rifle to handgun, ever, IINM. So even if you put take the buttstock off, this is no bueno. That's why if you ever buy "blank" receivers, you're always better off buy ones marked or designated handgun - that way you can make them into EITHER a handgun or rifle, at your whim, without any NFA paperwork. But if you buy "rifle" receivers, you can make rifles only.

Now suppose you made a regular rifle from a handgun designated receiver. So far, so good. But then suppose you wanted to go BACK to making it a handgun. Could you do this? I think the answer is technically "No you're not supposed to, because 'once a rifle, always a rifle', and you created a rifle". BUT, as a practical matter, if the receiver is marked handgun, there's no way the BATFE could ever know (nor would they care I don't think) that at one time you made it into a rifle for awhile.

Now you CAN however, make or "manufacture" an SBR from that regular rifle, by leaving the buttstock on and filling out the NFA form, sending in the $200, and waiting for the background check/approval, and THEN add your short barreled upper. Which is obviously far more useful than an AR "handgun", anyway. But takes $$ & hassle.


As for the T/C question:

If I can do this to my Thompson, then what's different about the two to make it legal?

IIRC, I believe the answer is "Because the BATFE, in all of its wisdom, carved out a specific (nonsensical) exception to the general rule, very narrowly, for the T/C family of guns only." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Pretty sure we can't have NFA guns or accessories here.

 

[Sam1911]

I own an AR-15 rifle. I believe I cannot legally remove the stock and replace the barrel with a 10" barrel. Because the receiver does not have "pistol" stamped on it, I believe this makes it an SBR.

If the above statement is correct, can I assume that I cannot put a pistol grip and 15" barrel on my Thompson Encore? If I can do this to my Thompson, then what's different about the two to make it legal?

Thanks,

There have been a couple of threads on the T/C issue recently.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477943
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=481930
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=482787

The ATF letter, dated Sept 25th of this year is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5941067&postcount=1

The sorry answer is that the BATFE has written that if you have a rifle, you may not put a short barrel onto it -- EVER -- without registering it as a "Title II" Short Barreled Rifle. Whether you put a pistol grip on it or not is irrelevant. It is a "firearm made from a rifle" and so is subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934, Title II regulations.

FURTHER, if you have a PISTOL (including a pistol registered AR-15 lower or T/C Contender/Encore receiver) and you put a buttstock on it -- ONCE -- you have made it into a RIFLE (which is perfectly legal to do), but from that point on you may not return it to pistol configuration -- EVEN WITH THE ORIGINAL FACTORY PARTS -- without first registering it as an SBR.

The US Supreme Court ruled AGAINST the BATFE's view of this in 1992 in Thompson Center vs. US.

The ATF has simply reinterpreted that ruling to only apply to a few T/C Contender KITS sold with both rifle and pistol parts from the factory.

The answer to question one is, no, because that would have to be a registered SBR, with a stock or without.

The answer to question two is, if your Encore is registered as a PISTOL, you can change it into a rifle without any trouble. However, having done that ONCE, you may not make it back into a pistol -- EVER -- without registering it as an SBR.

Sux, don't it?

-Sam

 

[Whitman31]

So if I bought my Thompson as a Muzzleloader (most likely a longgun on the 4473), it cannot be converted to a pistol?

 

[Sam1911]

IIRC, I believe the answer is "Because the BATFE, in all of its wisdom, carved out a specific (nonsensical) exception to the general rule, very narrowly, for the T/C family of guns only." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, it was the SCOTUS that carved a very narrow exception to the NFA with Thompson Center vs. US. According to the letter of the law, a "firearm made from a rifle" becomes a Title II registered weapon. The Supremes found it within their hearts to make a pretty significant exception for T/C.

The BATFE has simply found a way to make that only apply to a VERY few specific guns, and not T/C products as a whole.

Some would wonder why T/C (and MechTech with their 1911 and Glock carbine kits) can sell these products which seem tailor-made to help folks violate the NFA? By the language of the law, those products are prefectly legal to convert your pistol to a rifle. You just can't go back. Unfortunately, neither manufacturer seems to recognize that problem and explain it to their purchasers.

But, then, I doubt many Glock or 1911 owners would jump to buy a carbine conversion if they knew they couldn't swap their guns back into pistols without NFA registration!

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

So if I bought my Thompson as a Muzzleloader (most likely a longgun on the 4473), it cannot be converted to a pistol?

A T/C 50/209 (I think that's what they call the muzzleloader, right?) has to be transferred on a 4473. If it was transferred as a rifle, you cannot put a pistol barrel on it without first registering it as a Title II Short Barrel Rifle.

If you'd care to do a little homework, I'd sure love to hear T/C's response if a customer writes or calls and asks them that question point-blank, as it were. It might be good to have a copy of the ATF's letter to send them, though. I'd imagine they're familiar with the ruling, but who knows?

-Sam