Kragax
Member
I would have went for a Mozambique on your alright enough kid.
Self defense shooting in the news: Sarasota, FL
- Thread starter Buster34233
- Start date
- Status
bababooey32
Member
Sorry Oyeboten...you've already been raked over the coals, but this is an odd statement! I re-read the article looking for some indication that these were "alright" kids. I found nothing. The best I can come up with is that they played sports? Ya...no bad apples in football or basketball!!??!!
This sounds like a Nancy Pelosi press conference. Utter gibberish. As a responsible gun owner, it is scary to read your equivocation of this situation. There is no clearer a situation when one would be "OK" to shoot then when one has a shotgun pointed at them by a robber. That you feel the need to invent reasons why we shouldn't shoot is truly frightening.
Huh? I'm sure you mean well here, but this is nonsense (in the literal sense). I have no idea what you are trying to say.
At the end of the day, politeness while committing a violent felony is not an extenuating circumstance that I am willing to consider. In fact if a person is placid and polite while pulling off a felony, I think that sounds creepy and a bit psychotic. There is no illiterate combination of multi-syllable words that can change this scenario into a "no-shoot".
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Hoping doesn't do much good, does it. How long has Florida had concealed carry? I don't think the message is getting across, is it?
Body shots in general hurt like hell. A shot to the "stomach" isn't all that remarkable (according to a buddy of mine who was shot multiple times). If you allow sepsis to set in, then you have significantly more pain, however.
It is not polite to point a shotgun at someone to rob them with the threat of death, even if you use polite language.
He responded properly IMHO. It sends a message to other robber wannabe's in the area.
Do you ever wonder why nobody ever robs the bag man for the mob. No you don't.
If someone else wants to just give up and take their chances with themselves and potentially their wife, well, that's their perogitive as well. Just don't come crying to me if it doesn't work out.
He responded properly IMHO. It sends a message to other robber wannabe's in the area.
Do you ever wonder why nobody ever robs the bag man for the mob. No you don't.
If someone else wants to just give up and take their chances with themselves and potentially their wife, well, that's their perogitive as well. Just don't come crying to me if it doesn't work out.
Deltaboy1984
Member
The Post master is nice he could have killed him.
IMO I have been followed and I take them on a ride through town to the PD. That has caused them to leave me alone so far.
IMO I have been followed and I take them on a ride through town to the PD. That has caused them to leave me alone so far.
jad0110
Member
Glad all turned out well for the defender, clearer a clean shoot IMO. Too bad it had to come to that, as others said, knowlingly driving to your house suspected you are being followed was a mistake. Don't mean to quarterback the guy, but it is a lesson for us all to remember.
Tell you one thing, Mr. Firby's training, collected attitude and determination to survive paid off. Confronted by a man armed with a shotgun, he overcame armed with only a handgun, no matter the caliber.
Others would have peed their pants and curled up in the fedal position.
Tell you one thing, Mr. Firby's training, collected attitude and determination to survive paid off. Confronted by a man armed with a shotgun, he overcame armed with only a handgun, no matter the caliber.
Others would have peed their pants and curled up in the fedal position.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
oops- double tap
Last edited:
jad0110
Member
Sometimes. But sometimes the shootee doesn't feel a thing, so "inflicting pain" cannot be reliably counted on as a stopping mechanism. I was at the range with a woman who shot herself in the foot with 22; lots of nerve endings in the human foot. She said it just felt like dropping a marble on her foot (a light thump), with no pain at the time - that came an hour later.
Regardless, she said the pain she felt later was nothing compared to the sheer embarrassment and humiliation of the whole affair. In fact, she was more angry than anything else when it happened.
Quote:
A lot of posters seem to be missing the point he had apparently gone HOME when the attempted robbery occured. I am not going so let some punks chase me around town when I am that close to my property."its my turf now,bring it on"
I'd suggest maybe you are missing the point - this could have potentially been avoided altogether, and for sure he could have avoided identifying his home and potentially putting his family at risk. You are effectively saying "I don't care to drive around and I'll take them out when I get home" - right....so you are prepared to potentially risk losing both your own and your families lives for a few seconds of bravado?
A lot of posters seem to be missing the point he had apparently gone HOME when the attempted robbery occured. I am not going so let some punks chase me around town when I am that close to my property."its my turf now,bring it on"
I'd suggest maybe you are missing the point - this could have potentially been avoided altogether, and for sure he could have avoided identifying his home and potentially putting his family at risk. You are effectively saying "I don't care to drive around and I'll take them out when I get home" - right....so you are prepared to potentially risk losing both your own and your families lives for a few seconds of bravado?
duckman007
Member
Oyebuten
I have no desire to flame or insult you, but I feel that your comments really need to be addressed further. One of the things that jumps out at me is the tone of your comments. It appears that you are sympathetic towards the perpetrators, either because of their age, their lack of a previous record, or their involvement in sports. This completely confuses me. I really don't understand how your perceived character of these individuals is in anyway relevant. I get the impression that if the perps had of been two tattoo laden gang bangers spewing obscenities, that you may have reacted to defend yourself, but since these were polite young men, you would have complied with their demands. It also leads me to believe that you somehow feel that the victim in this armed robbery was somehow wrong in defending himself. This concerns me in that people who hold such convoluted beliefs sometimes make it into positions of authority, such as district attorney and/or on jury panels judging those who behaved correctly while defending themselves.
You really, really need to understand that the perpetrators tone is completely irrelevant. You really, really need to understand that their lack or a criminal record is also completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they planned this robbery. They picked their victim and followed him home. They acted on their plan and actually pointed a shotgun at the victim and demanded money. You seem to think that their history is somehow cause to view their actions with less contempt, I disagree. I view their actions with more contempt in that there was no reason for them to commit such a violent act. Not that anything is an excuse, but these two were not starving on the streets, they were not addicts looking for a fix, they were not looking to fund an operation for a loved one, none of these things. They were simply maggots looking to feed off someones hard work rather than work for themselves. I have no tolerance for their actions and no tolerance for anyone that pities them or feels that they just made a mistake and that they are really good people.
While I don't recall the details, there was a serial rapist several years back that preyed on women in their homes. This sack of garbage would assault these women, and in the process, was very calm and polite. He would also perform sexual acts which he felt would be enjoyable to the women. He was really a nice guy by all standards, well except the whole rapist thing. Now, do you really believe that someone being nice makes a difference? I'll bet if you ask those rape victims, they would probably be thankful that he didn't murder or beat them half to death, but they felt violated every bit as much as every other rape victim, regardless of the perps attitude.
Please understand that if someone points a shotgun at you, or threatens you in anyway, don't take their attitude into account, DEFEND YOURSELF! I know of no one that can read minds or predict the future. You have no way of knowing their true intentions. Understand that decent can turn deadly in the blink of an eye. Do not risk your life or the lives of others on your feelings, look at the facts and react accordingly. Anyone who points a weapon at you and demands money is in the same class of person, thug. They deserve no pity or remorse. If murder victims could somehow speak again, I wonder what percentage would say that their killer was polite and nice and they really felt if they cooperated that they would be alright?
One last thing, we can all Monday morning quarterback Mr. Firby's actions. Why did he go home? Why did he carry a .380? Why didn't he call 911? The sad fact is that most people are too trusting and don't want to rely on their own instincts, especially if it means getting others, like the police, involved. Most people, unless trained or otherwise indoctrinated as to the ways of evil doers, feel that nothing bad is really going to happen to them. They let their desire not to falsely accuse someone or look like a fool in front of the police rule their actions. Yes, he would have been better off if he had of called the police. He would have also been better off if he had carried a larger gun. But the fact remains that he survived the incident without injury and the bad guys did not. That's a +1 in our favor as far as I'm concerned.
I have no desire to flame or insult you, but I feel that your comments really need to be addressed further. One of the things that jumps out at me is the tone of your comments. It appears that you are sympathetic towards the perpetrators, either because of their age, their lack of a previous record, or their involvement in sports. This completely confuses me. I really don't understand how your perceived character of these individuals is in anyway relevant. I get the impression that if the perps had of been two tattoo laden gang bangers spewing obscenities, that you may have reacted to defend yourself, but since these were polite young men, you would have complied with their demands. It also leads me to believe that you somehow feel that the victim in this armed robbery was somehow wrong in defending himself. This concerns me in that people who hold such convoluted beliefs sometimes make it into positions of authority, such as district attorney and/or on jury panels judging those who behaved correctly while defending themselves.
You really, really need to understand that the perpetrators tone is completely irrelevant. You really, really need to understand that their lack or a criminal record is also completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they planned this robbery. They picked their victim and followed him home. They acted on their plan and actually pointed a shotgun at the victim and demanded money. You seem to think that their history is somehow cause to view their actions with less contempt, I disagree. I view their actions with more contempt in that there was no reason for them to commit such a violent act. Not that anything is an excuse, but these two were not starving on the streets, they were not addicts looking for a fix, they were not looking to fund an operation for a loved one, none of these things. They were simply maggots looking to feed off someones hard work rather than work for themselves. I have no tolerance for their actions and no tolerance for anyone that pities them or feels that they just made a mistake and that they are really good people.
While I don't recall the details, there was a serial rapist several years back that preyed on women in their homes. This sack of garbage would assault these women, and in the process, was very calm and polite. He would also perform sexual acts which he felt would be enjoyable to the women. He was really a nice guy by all standards, well except the whole rapist thing. Now, do you really believe that someone being nice makes a difference? I'll bet if you ask those rape victims, they would probably be thankful that he didn't murder or beat them half to death, but they felt violated every bit as much as every other rape victim, regardless of the perps attitude.
Please understand that if someone points a shotgun at you, or threatens you in anyway, don't take their attitude into account, DEFEND YOURSELF! I know of no one that can read minds or predict the future. You have no way of knowing their true intentions. Understand that decent can turn deadly in the blink of an eye. Do not risk your life or the lives of others on your feelings, look at the facts and react accordingly. Anyone who points a weapon at you and demands money is in the same class of person, thug. They deserve no pity or remorse. If murder victims could somehow speak again, I wonder what percentage would say that their killer was polite and nice and they really felt if they cooperated that they would be alright?
One last thing, we can all Monday morning quarterback Mr. Firby's actions. Why did he go home? Why did he carry a .380? Why didn't he call 911? The sad fact is that most people are too trusting and don't want to rely on their own instincts, especially if it means getting others, like the police, involved. Most people, unless trained or otherwise indoctrinated as to the ways of evil doers, feel that nothing bad is really going to happen to them. They let their desire not to falsely accuse someone or look like a fool in front of the police rule their actions. Yes, he would have been better off if he had of called the police. He would have also been better off if he had carried a larger gun. But the fact remains that he survived the incident without injury and the bad guys did not. That's a +1 in our favor as far as I'm concerned.
Yoda
Member
He should have double-tapped
He fired once and hit the guy, then he fired again as he was driving off? He should have kept firing into the bad guy until he went down. If he could run off, he could have pulled the trigger on the shotgun.
If you're using a .380, you're pretty much obligated to double-tap. I think it's the law somewhere.
- - - Yoda
He fired once and hit the guy, then he fired again as he was driving off? He should have kept firing into the bad guy until he went down. If he could run off, he could have pulled the trigger on the shotgun.
If you're using a .380, you're pretty much obligated to double-tap. I think it's the law somewhere.
- - - Yoda
First off, the whole oyeboyten thing is beyond bizzare. Kids with guns holding up old people are not nice kids. I am not even going to approach that subject, its just silly.
But I will tell ya, as someone considering 380 pocket pistols <as a lot of people are> not sure how to take this story.
Obviously being shot in the stomach, and being able to run back into a truck and drive off, means he certainly was able to shoot the man if he wanted to. Not too encouraging.
On the other hand, in this case it had enough "Stopping power" in that it stopped him.
But if they were more determined, he would have been dead.
I am tending to think that I might make 9mm my minimum.
interesting story tho. just goes to show what lengths kids will go for money in a bad economy.
But I will tell ya, as someone considering 380 pocket pistols <as a lot of people are> not sure how to take this story.
Obviously being shot in the stomach, and being able to run back into a truck and drive off, means he certainly was able to shoot the man if he wanted to. Not too encouraging.
On the other hand, in this case it had enough "Stopping power" in that it stopped him.
But if they were more determined, he would have been dead.
I am tending to think that I might make 9mm my minimum.
interesting story tho. just goes to show what lengths kids will go for money in a bad economy.
bababooey32
Member
Caliber Wars...again
I think it is quite humorous that both sides of the "caliber wars" are finding fodder for their arguments in the same data!
Big caliber proponents are saysing "see, he never did go down - could've shot the good guy".
Small caliber fans are saying "see, the bg was neutralized and 'stopped' his attack".
While this case proves neither argument, it reinforces the number of factors that contribute to a successful defense vs. unsuccessful: caliber, shot placement, location of event, cover, concealment, demeanor of the bg, determination of bg (and gg), age, health, skill, tactics, training on and on and on....
I think it is quite humorous that both sides of the "caliber wars" are finding fodder for their arguments in the same data!
Big caliber proponents are saysing "see, he never did go down - could've shot the good guy".
Small caliber fans are saying "see, the bg was neutralized and 'stopped' his attack".
While this case proves neither argument, it reinforces the number of factors that contribute to a successful defense vs. unsuccessful: caliber, shot placement, location of event, cover, concealment, demeanor of the bg, determination of bg (and gg), age, health, skill, tactics, training on and on and on....
The Wiry Irishman
Member
I'm not sure a single shot to the stomach with any handgun round, be it .380 or 10mm, would result in the BG stopping against his will.
cityslicker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
- Messages
- 17
Well I can tell ya, I sure would'nt have brought them thugs back to my house.
ldyates
Member
Seems that the victim exercised some restraint in his defense and the BG got off easy.
.380 seemed to work just fine in this case and I will assume that there were at least 5 more unfired rounds that could have been deployed. The man deserves a great deal of credit for his decision making... after he made the mistake of taking them to his house.
I would have fired at least 4 times and my shorts would have needed a good cleaning afterwards.
.380 seemed to work just fine in this case and I will assume that there were at least 5 more unfired rounds that could have been deployed. The man deserves a great deal of credit for his decision making... after he made the mistake of taking them to his house.
I would have fired at least 4 times and my shorts would have needed a good cleaning afterwards.
bababooey32
Member
My point exactly. There is more to it than any one (or even two ) factors. Many come into play. Some are even correlated, some are completely uncorrelated. But multiple factors will contribute to any successful shoot.
rainbowbob
Member
Oyeboten:
You have already been pretty thoroughly raked over the coals for many of your bizarre comments - and I won't re-hash any of that.
However, nobody addressed the "reasonable judicial system" comment - so I'll take a swing at it.
This is a particularly disturbing attitude to me because of recent discussions I've had with my well-meaning but somewhat deluded siblings on the subject of juvenile punishment for adult crimes. They made similar comments in response to a case here.
Last year in my city, "...a couple of alright enough kids (sports, good grades) who got into a foolish escapade-mode..." decided to show off in front of other like-minded kids and beat a local street musician to death. This was a beloved local character who had "busked" outside our sports events for decades - and who wouldn't have hurt the proverbial fly.
The sentences they received from our oh-so-reasonable judicial system ranged from 15 to 30 months (yes months - that's not a typo) with credit for time served (in-home detention). They will be out in a few weeks (if they're not already free).
This...for murder.
I have no doubt the "alright enough kid" in the OP will be charged as a juvenile (if charged at all).
I also think it highly likely this violent sociopath will commit violence in the future.
Like you, my brothers believe that violent juvenile offenders should be given another chance. Unlike you (or my brothers), I believe that when a person (old enough to know better) demonstrates their ability and willingness to commit criminal violence - they should not be free to try it again any time soon.
Our "reasonable" judicial system - and encounters with some of those they have given a second, third, and fourth chance - is the primary reason I decided to arm myself at all times.
I think the need for a second shot depends on what happens after the first shot. If the muzzle of the gun is in your direction, shoot. If not, not.
I'm certainly not going to second-guess anyone who does an automatic double-tap when confronted with a shotgun, but I'm also not going to second-guess a guy who felt one shot was enough.
I'm certainly not going to second-guess anyone who does an automatic double-tap when confronted with a shotgun, but I'm also not going to second-guess a guy who felt one shot was enough.
I've taken care of a fair number of gunshot patients in my 20 years as an anesthesiologist. Many have arrived talking.
An abdominal shot, if it doesn't hit a large blood vessel, is not incapacitating and the gut does not feel pain. The abdominal wall does, but once the "incision" (bullet hole) is made, the pain is lessened. (It often results, however, in a temporary colostomy to allow the gut to heal and remove risk of infection, so the person may have considerable time to think about their choices....the colostomy can be reversed in a few months)
If you don't hit a vessel, they may very well be able to continue their desired action if they so wish.
If you hit a vessel: the aorta and the vena cava are right there. Either is likely to be quite fatal. But it will take quite a few minutes, as the blood is somewhat contained by the abdominal wall. All depends on the state of hydration of the person prior to the blood loss. (I've been forced to observe THAT experiment a zillion times in real life in traumas; with a good blood bank and big IVs, I usually come out on the good side of the equation.) Dehdrated person might go out within 30 seconds, well hydrated person with a contained bleed could go 30 minutes. Again, the person may be able to continue a desired action.
Even if you hit the heart, consciousness will remain for quite a few seconds. Experiments were done during the French revolution and severed heads could follow directions for many seconds.
People are pretty tough creatures. If your life hangs in the balance, you might need to realize that.
my 2 cents worth.
An abdominal shot, if it doesn't hit a large blood vessel, is not incapacitating and the gut does not feel pain. The abdominal wall does, but once the "incision" (bullet hole) is made, the pain is lessened. (It often results, however, in a temporary colostomy to allow the gut to heal and remove risk of infection, so the person may have considerable time to think about their choices....the colostomy can be reversed in a few months)
If you don't hit a vessel, they may very well be able to continue their desired action if they so wish.
If you hit a vessel: the aorta and the vena cava are right there. Either is likely to be quite fatal. But it will take quite a few minutes, as the blood is somewhat contained by the abdominal wall. All depends on the state of hydration of the person prior to the blood loss. (I've been forced to observe THAT experiment a zillion times in real life in traumas; with a good blood bank and big IVs, I usually come out on the good side of the equation.) Dehdrated person might go out within 30 seconds, well hydrated person with a contained bleed could go 30 minutes. Again, the person may be able to continue a desired action.
Even if you hit the heart, consciousness will remain for quite a few seconds. Experiments were done during the French revolution and severed heads could follow directions for many seconds.
People are pretty tough creatures. If your life hangs in the balance, you might need to realize that.
my 2 cents worth.
rainbowbob
Member
docsleepy:
I'm sure the info based on your real-world experience is accurate - but I have to question the above statement.
It is fascinating (if accurate) - but seems unlikely due to shock, severed nerves, etc.
jim in Anchorage
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 2,849
First of all where are you going to go? I myself don't even know where a police station is. A public area? yeah thats safe. And you know nothing about were this "following" started. 300 yards from his driveway? 10 miles? Hell if this happened to me[someone pulling over,then folowing me] I would have thought it was a unmarked cop looking for DWIs.
hankdatank1362
Member
Amen. Shoot 'em to the ground, where they (probably) no longer pose a threat.
Truth be told, If I didn't drive to a PD, I'd phone a buddy and drive to their house. Have a nice little suprise waiting in the bushes with a 12GA or peering through an upstairs window with a .308 for anybody who gets their jollies from trying to instill fear in others.
- Status
