Webbj0219
Member
yeah basically tell the truth about it. Your probably gonna have to sell it dirt cheap as a fixer upper. Maybe sell it to a gunsmith or something. Someone that can fix it and still come out ahead on the deal.
Selling a bad gun with a clean conscience
- Thread starter J.
- Start date
- Status
Airburst
Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2006
- Messages
- 233
Back when yugo SKS rifles were relatively cheap, I picked one up from a seller that was upfront on the problem he was having. The orginal owner was compensated, (I bought it cheap) stripped it to parts, cleaned it and replaced a couple of parts known to cause the problem. BAM! Problem fixed, I sold the rifle for a profit to a new owner, and everyone was happy. Tell the truth and it will set you free.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Methinks the OP came to vent rather than for feedback. Still hasn't answered anybody's question about what gun we're talking about.
The op didn't want to start a big fight among posters who are brand loyal and those who are not brand loyal. It's a Sig P238 if it really matters. Hope that makes you happy
And I did decide to make a full disclosure to the people who might possibly buy it. In other words I got the information I needed from people who could see the big picture without having to get nit-picky about the name of the gun and to those people I say thank you.
mustang_steve
Member
where is it jamming at? Is the round getting caught on the ramp, or is it being tipped up too much, etc?
If I had enough cash to make a halfway reasonable offer, I would make an offer for the firearm so i could fix it for myself...but I'm too broke at this point to pay attention
If I had enough cash to make a halfway reasonable offer, I would make an offer for the firearm so i could fix it for myself...but I'm too broke at this point to pay attention
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
These "200 round break-in" periods for functional reliability have always made me shake my head. Para was selling their pistols with a similar disclaimer, though I know some people who were told by their factory that it could even take 500 rounds. What a joke.
Ship the gun when it is ready to be shot. Don't make the consumer play with the thing for months before it can work correctly.
Ship the gun when it is ready to be shot. Don't make the consumer play with the thing for months before it can work correctly.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Sorry; wasn't trying to be a jerk. I'm not familiar with Sigs, but I've worked the kinks out of several less-than-perfect purchases, as have others here on the board. Just thought that, provided sufficient detail, I or others might have been able to help you trouble-shoot the problem. Full disclosure is the way to go, so good on ya. Again, didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. Welcome to the board.
I never have and never will sell a problem gun... well unless it is to a friend whom I know to be competent at fixing such problems as the gun is having... and I will do so only after explaining every single malfunction I experienced.
hometheaterman
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,115
I stopped taking you seriously when I read Remington. If you read online, there are tons and tons of complaints especially with chamber issues with the 870 Express models, and there are even several with quality control issues on the newer 700's. If you work on them 6 days a week, I suspect you've seen quite a few of these.
Onward Allusion
Member
I don't generally sell my guns but if/when I do, I make sure they don't have problems. Even if one fully discloses existing issues, and the buyer isn't knowledgeable, bad things can happen and don't need the grief or guilt.
I ran into a similar situation last year and choose to get the lemon fixed and personally ran several boxes of ammo through it to make sure it functioned w/o issue before letting it go.
I ran into a similar situation last year and choose to get the lemon fixed and personally ran several boxes of ammo through it to make sure it functioned w/o issue before letting it go.
J.
Quote:
Methinks the OP came to vent rather than for feedback. Still hasn't answered anybody's question about what gun we're talking about.
The op didn't want to start a big fight among posters who are brand loyal and those who are not brand loyal. It's a Sig P238 if it really matters. Hope that makes you happy
And I did decide to make a full disclosure to the people who might possibly buy it. In other words I got the information I needed from people who could see the big picture without having to get nit-picky about the name of the gun and to those people I say thank you.
Mac's Precision
Member
hometheaterman says:
"I stopped taking you seriously when I read Remington. If you read online, there are tons and tons of complaints especially with chamber issues with the 870 Express models, and there are even several with quality control issues on the newer 700's. If you work on them 6 days a week, I suspect you've seen quite a few of these."
When I quoted Remington I was quite serious in that I don't see very many of them with function problems. Remington did go through a time when they too quite a bit of heat on the internet because some fellows felt that they could see concentricity problems in the chambers. As of late I haven't seen issues with the 700's not shooting beyond the ability of most shooters. Some folks get really vocal on the internet because they expect $2000 performance from a $600 rifle. In general I don't see 700's Not feeding, Not firing, not ejecting. Most will shoot close to 1 MOA with good loads.... most have clean breaking triggers....although they are often a tad heavy. I have had guys want to tune them to get the most out of them...but not a ton of function issues in general.
As for the 870 Express models...some did have issues with rough chambers that lead to stiff extraction of cases. Not all of them had this problem..just a few but again...it made BIG ripples on the internet. It was a quick fix.
The comment I made was of course in general terms....and I did say RARELY...not NEVER. Glocks do fail.. as do Sigs...and many high dollar guns. There is always an exception to the rule. There are some great Mossbergs I am sure....but I took delivery of 12 500 pumps....8 of which had shell stop problems where it would dump the entire mag tube of shells on the floor.
Glock has been through it's fits too...and suffered many issues with cracks...Kabooms...bad sights....and as of late...recoil spring problems
Sig has had it's issues as well with barrel issues, locking block issues etc. IN General...they do pretty darn good.
I just mentioned in another post that Remington is really missing the boat on quality of the new R1. I just got done fixing a whole list of things that Remington should have caught going out the door.
No maker is perfect. SOME are terrible....and many have issues in general that make me not like them. Some have a high percentage of design flaws and QC issues on WAY too frequent of a basis.
I knew I would start a cascade of comments when I listed some of the good, bad and ugly of certain brands. Remember in General terms....not absolute. There are exceptions and I do work on some Remingtons....you are right. Are they perfect? ...no. Are they GENERALLY good....yes. Better than some....yes. Do I like them enough to own them....yes...I own several and all are good shooters. Are the modern Remington rifles and shotguns on par with the models from 35 years ago? No. Are MOST ALL manufactures relying on history of good products to support their name? YES!!!. Most all guns are not what the early models were. MOST are guilty of that... IN GENERAL terms.
There is also a perspective issue at hand too. What did a Ruger Mk 1 sell for new when it was introduced in 1949? It was $32.50. NOW it sells for over $325 in some instances. The average wage in 49 was $1.41 / hour or 23 hours wages to buy the little Ruger Mk 1.
The current Average income is +/- $25.00 / hour. SO...if we take 23 hours wages x $25.00 we get $575.00. I would be willing to bet that if we would pay Ruger $575 for a standard blue no frills Mark 3....we could demand a Heck of a 22 pistol. In short the firearm market is so competitive that they are cutting corners everywhere to stay a float. Literally putting themselves out of business in a race to the bottom price. They sell the Mark 3 for a little more than half what it should... You think they could have made that Mark 1 back in 1949...for say $16.00?? You can't get lunch for you and your wife for $16.00 nowadays.
If we would tack an added $250 on the price of every gun sold nowadays...would the quality go up? Could they afford to spend the fitting time? Could we get top shelf guns again? Do some people pay high bucks for custom guns? Are they out of their minds or just paying what they should for a good firearm based on inflation? Do people really have a reason to complain when a gunsmith charges $100 bucks to make a "new gun" run right when they paid less than they should have for that gun? Should the gun companies just close the doors because they can't make top shelf quality and charge $1200.00 for a standard 700 BDL? Should they give up...or just drop quality to keep them selling at a low ball price.
So many questions.... Anyone have the answers?
Cheers
Mac.
"I stopped taking you seriously when I read Remington. If you read online, there are tons and tons of complaints especially with chamber issues with the 870 Express models, and there are even several with quality control issues on the newer 700's. If you work on them 6 days a week, I suspect you've seen quite a few of these."
When I quoted Remington I was quite serious in that I don't see very many of them with function problems. Remington did go through a time when they too quite a bit of heat on the internet because some fellows felt that they could see concentricity problems in the chambers. As of late I haven't seen issues with the 700's not shooting beyond the ability of most shooters. Some folks get really vocal on the internet because they expect $2000 performance from a $600 rifle. In general I don't see 700's Not feeding, Not firing, not ejecting. Most will shoot close to 1 MOA with good loads.... most have clean breaking triggers....although they are often a tad heavy. I have had guys want to tune them to get the most out of them...but not a ton of function issues in general.
As for the 870 Express models...some did have issues with rough chambers that lead to stiff extraction of cases. Not all of them had this problem..just a few but again...it made BIG ripples on the internet. It was a quick fix.
The comment I made was of course in general terms....and I did say RARELY...not NEVER. Glocks do fail.. as do Sigs...and many high dollar guns. There is always an exception to the rule. There are some great Mossbergs I am sure....but I took delivery of 12 500 pumps....8 of which had shell stop problems where it would dump the entire mag tube of shells on the floor.
Glock has been through it's fits too...and suffered many issues with cracks...Kabooms...bad sights....and as of late...recoil spring problems
Sig has had it's issues as well with barrel issues, locking block issues etc. IN General...they do pretty darn good.
I just mentioned in another post that Remington is really missing the boat on quality of the new R1. I just got done fixing a whole list of things that Remington should have caught going out the door.
No maker is perfect. SOME are terrible....and many have issues in general that make me not like them. Some have a high percentage of design flaws and QC issues on WAY too frequent of a basis.
I knew I would start a cascade of comments when I listed some of the good, bad and ugly of certain brands. Remember in General terms....not absolute. There are exceptions and I do work on some Remingtons....you are right. Are they perfect? ...no. Are they GENERALLY good....yes. Better than some....yes. Do I like them enough to own them....yes...I own several and all are good shooters. Are the modern Remington rifles and shotguns on par with the models from 35 years ago? No. Are MOST ALL manufactures relying on history of good products to support their name? YES!!!. Most all guns are not what the early models were. MOST are guilty of that... IN GENERAL terms.
There is also a perspective issue at hand too. What did a Ruger Mk 1 sell for new when it was introduced in 1949? It was $32.50. NOW it sells for over $325 in some instances. The average wage in 49 was $1.41 / hour or 23 hours wages to buy the little Ruger Mk 1.
The current Average income is +/- $25.00 / hour. SO...if we take 23 hours wages x $25.00 we get $575.00. I would be willing to bet that if we would pay Ruger $575 for a standard blue no frills Mark 3....we could demand a Heck of a 22 pistol. In short the firearm market is so competitive that they are cutting corners everywhere to stay a float. Literally putting themselves out of business in a race to the bottom price. They sell the Mark 3 for a little more than half what it should... You think they could have made that Mark 1 back in 1949...for say $16.00?? You can't get lunch for you and your wife for $16.00 nowadays.
If we would tack an added $250 on the price of every gun sold nowadays...would the quality go up? Could they afford to spend the fitting time? Could we get top shelf guns again? Do some people pay high bucks for custom guns? Are they out of their minds or just paying what they should for a good firearm based on inflation? Do people really have a reason to complain when a gunsmith charges $100 bucks to make a "new gun" run right when they paid less than they should have for that gun? Should the gun companies just close the doors because they can't make top shelf quality and charge $1200.00 for a standard 700 BDL? Should they give up...or just drop quality to keep them selling at a low ball price.
So many questions.... Anyone have the answers?
Cheers
Mac.
Bassically the gun was supposed to be my wife's concealed carry piece but it has failed so much that I can't find it within me to send her out with it even if it were fixed knowing that it has an outstanding failure rate. No amount of fixing will make me trust it.
Bottom line, I am going to lose my butt on the gun because I bought lots of extras to go with it. Such as, $300.00 worth of 380 practice ammo, a supertuck holster, and two extra mags at $40.00 bucks a pop. If I add in the amount of the gun that I traded in I paid $500.00 plus for the gun. By the way the gun I traded in was a glock 26. What can I say I thought I was doing the right thing.:banghead:
I am ready to end this thread and I guess I did want to rant.
dogdollar
Member
It sounds to me like you are not talking to the right people.
If you bought it retail from a gun shop, they should intercede on your behalf. If not, you need to get through to someone high enough on the pecking order at Sig. It's ridiculous to proceed from the notion that you need to basically waste a half case of ammo to get your new pistol running.
Are you aware that there was a recall on some of these pistols?
DD
If you bought it retail from a gun shop, they should intercede on your behalf. If not, you need to get through to someone high enough on the pecking order at Sig. It's ridiculous to proceed from the notion that you need to basically waste a half case of ammo to get your new pistol running.
Are you aware that there was a recall on some of these pistols?
DD
Quoheleth
Member
If you are that heavily vested in the gun, IMHO either push harder at the folks at Sig, at the folks at the gunshop, or drop a little coin at the gunsmith and get it tweaked. Instead of losing your shirt on a sale spend just a tad more and get it working. You'll salvage your investment and wind up with a heckuva carry gun, I suspect.
Q
Q
Onward Allusion
Member
Any pistol that a person conceal carries need to have at least a couple of hundred rounds if not SEVERAL hundred rounds put through it. A break-in period is annoying as hell, but on some guns it is a necessity, especially as a CCW. If break-in periods are not do-able then a revolver is in order.
J.
Quote: Sorry; wasn't trying to be a jerk. I'm not familiar with Sigs, but I've worked the kinks out of several less-than-perfect purchases, as have others here on the board. Just thought that, provided sufficient detail, I or others might have been able to help you trouble-shoot the problem. Full disclosure is the way to go, so good on ya. Again, didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. Welcome to the board.
Bassically the gun was supposed to be my wife's concealed carry piece but it has failed so much that I can't find it within me to send her out with it even if it were fixed knowing that it has an outstanding failure rate. No amount of fixing will make me trust it.
Bottom line, I am going to lose my butt on the gun because I bought lots of extras to go with it. Such as, $300.00 worth of 380 practice ammo, a supertuck holster, and two extra mags at $40.00 bucks a pop. If I add in the amount of the gun that I traded in I paid $500.00 plus for the gun. By the way the gun I traded in was a glock 26. What can I say I thought I was doing the right thing.:banghead:
I am ready to end this thread and I guess I did want to rant.
at this point i wouldn't want to carry this either, even if sig fixed it i would not trust it. let alone my wife (if i was married) carry this. but i would do one of three things one sell it back from where i bought it at a loss. have the place i bought it from get sig fix it and then sell it or trade it in. or battle with sig until they fix it & then sell it. but i could never trust it, thats just how i am. since you have all that ammo would look for something in a 380. best of luck to you no matter which way you go with it.
dogdollar
Member
I couldn't agree more that in the case of a pistol you intend to carry, an evaluation period of a couple of hundred rounds are in order......but that is distinctly different from blowing a few hundred bucks worth of ammo through it just to "wear it in" to the point it is reliable. It seems like a lot of gunmakers spew that nonsense when they get the call about a new gun, and in my opinion it's just their way of saying "Go Away". I guess the logic is that some guns WILL wear in and right themselves, and so the maker, in those cases, is spared the expense of the shipping and diagnostics.....but when this guy is telling me he can't even get through ONE magazine without a failure, I'd say the prognosis isn't good.
In either case, to dismiss their customers, out of hand, with a view to increasing profits (by cutting losses), is reprehensible, if not criminal........
DD
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 3,285
onward allusion said:
There's a difference (a HUGE difference) between saying that you should shoot your pistol for a few hundred rounds as a reliability check, and having the manufacturer officially state that their guns won't function correctly until you've burned a few hundred rounds.
Most of my carry guns had 500-1,000 rounds through them by the time I carried them, but I wouldn't have expected the manager to tell me that that break-in period was required for reliability.
dogdollar said:
^exactly.
Onward Allusion
Member
Regardless of whether the manufacture states a gun requires a break-in period or not, the owner needs to send a couple-few hundred rounds down the barrel before giving up on the weapon. In a perfect world, everything would run like a Glock out of the box (semi-sarcasm intended), but some guns do require a break-in - like it or not. If it happens to be a Hi-Point, then the manufacture is crap. If it happens to be a SIG, then it's "oh well - just need to break-in". Double standard - you betcha.
patrick126
Member
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2010
- Messages
- 2
Kahr PM9
I face the same challenge with this gun, put > 500 rounds thru it, new mags, they disengage and next rnd doesnt feed, also get jams sometimes when the round gets stuck while feeding, keep it very clean, sent it back once, but still issues with the mags. I have no confidence with this gun. Called Kahr back and they're sending me some part for the mag release?? Why do I have to fiddle around with this thing to try and make it work? Like the size, but can't live with the unreliability. Traded a PPK/S 380, which never jammed! but like the 9mm round much more, when it works!
I face the same challenge with this gun, put > 500 rounds thru it, new mags, they disengage and next rnd doesnt feed, also get jams sometimes when the round gets stuck while feeding, keep it very clean, sent it back once, but still issues with the mags. I have no confidence with this gun. Called Kahr back and they're sending me some part for the mag release?? Why do I have to fiddle around with this thing to try and make it work? Like the size, but can't live with the unreliability. Traded a PPK/S 380, which never jammed! but like the 9mm round much more, when it works!
TexasGunbie
Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2010
- Messages
- 270
If you wanna avoid trouble, you sell this gun with all things disclose.
Name the round count, the trouble you're having, tell them about your contacts with the warranty services. And price it low to be fair.
Name the round count, the trouble you're having, tell them about your contacts with the warranty services. And price it low to be fair.
"If we would tack an added $250 on the price of every gun sold nowadays...would the quality go up? "
Probably not but I'm sure the executive's bonuses would. With pay for performance being all the rage these days, they are going to keep the profit margin as high as possible. When the company folds, the top dogs will be retired to Tahiti.
Probably not but I'm sure the executive's bonuses would. With pay for performance being all the rage these days, they are going to keep the profit margin as high as possible. When the company folds, the top dogs will be retired to Tahiti.
rouge-red5
Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 11
Makes you sleep better.
What i would do,
I would seek a new gun store.
I know that most stores have a policy of defective products will go thru the manufacture. But how many times can eat some poo and still have a smile on your face? Your Gun store should have your back on this. They should make it right and talk with the manufac on your behalf or trade it out and both of you eat some loss on the gun. If they want to keep you as a customer for ammo ,cleaning supplies other firearms ect, why wouldn't they help you out more?
I always look for a gun store with "good guys" in it. Not ones that just sell you anything cause you have money. Find one and you'll be happy for years. Do some shopping see if they will sell you new "junk". Ask them ?'s about whats happing to you, see what they would do to help you out.
I dont know if i would go for the smith option, for one reason, Doubt. If you dont start out strong and build from there you will always Doubt your gun.
Go for a Trade in with a store. Tell the guy from the start whats happening with the gun, what you've replaced, show them the paper work trail. Do it that way and you'll sleep like a rock.
For your ammo look for same cal of gun on your trade in
Mags and holster see if trade in vaule will increase or Gunbroker emm off.
What i would do,
I would seek a new gun store.
I know that most stores have a policy of defective products will go thru the manufacture. But how many times can eat some poo and still have a smile on your face? Your Gun store should have your back on this. They should make it right and talk with the manufac on your behalf or trade it out and both of you eat some loss on the gun. If they want to keep you as a customer for ammo ,cleaning supplies other firearms ect, why wouldn't they help you out more?
I always look for a gun store with "good guys" in it. Not ones that just sell you anything cause you have money. Find one and you'll be happy for years. Do some shopping see if they will sell you new "junk". Ask them ?'s about whats happing to you, see what they would do to help you out.
I dont know if i would go for the smith option, for one reason, Doubt. If you dont start out strong and build from there you will always Doubt your gun.
Go for a Trade in with a store. Tell the guy from the start whats happening with the gun, what you've replaced, show them the paper work trail. Do it that way and you'll sleep like a rock.
For your ammo look for same cal of gun on your trade in
Mags and holster see if trade in vaule will increase or Gunbroker emm off.
Erik M
Member
local shop sold me a used keltec p11 without any qualms. it wouldnt even chamber a round. Upside is that their in house gunsmith replaced the extractor free of charge now the weapon cycles fine. I assume the guy that traded it in failed to mention the flaw.
simonriece
Member
Sig P238 and its' problems
I'm supprised that Sig Sauer didn't take care of the problem. I had a similar problem with a used colt .380 many years ago. I'm going to guess that you aren't using the highest quality ammunition and probably haven't lubricated the browning pivot. Buy a box of FMJ from a respectable company, like Federal, and take a fingers full wipe of vaseline, putting it directly under the browning pivot 'it is right in front of the firing chamber where the slide meets the barrel'. Dry cycle the weapon using snap caps, and some real force, atleast 100 times. Take the gun down and get rid of all the vaseline and lubricate with Hoppes or another quality lube. Take it out to the range, heavily lubed and burn through half the box. Clean it completely, and relube normally. You shouldn't have anymore problems.
I'm supprised that Sig Sauer didn't take care of the problem. I had a similar problem with a used colt .380 many years ago. I'm going to guess that you aren't using the highest quality ammunition and probably haven't lubricated the browning pivot. Buy a box of FMJ from a respectable company, like Federal, and take a fingers full wipe of vaseline, putting it directly under the browning pivot 'it is right in front of the firing chamber where the slide meets the barrel'. Dry cycle the weapon using snap caps, and some real force, atleast 100 times. Take the gun down and get rid of all the vaseline and lubricate with Hoppes or another quality lube. Take it out to the range, heavily lubed and burn through half the box. Clean it completely, and relube normally. You shouldn't have anymore problems.
- Status
Similar threads
