You still need to be able to identify your target. Or are you saying that you would simply shoot, out of hand, anyone in your house? Like your drunk neighbor who found his way into your house by mistake? And don't you ever travel?Mike1234567 said:
shooting from the hip
- Thread starter two gun charlie
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Mike1234567
member
No, not at all, I'm saying this is why I prefer a light/laser on my HD firearm. I would never shoot unless I was absolutely certain I was threatened. No, I never travel. If I do sometime in the future I'll still have the light/laser on my firearm. I do drive places locally and the pistol I carry has neither a laser nor a light because it's concealed. In the very unlikely event I need to defend myself with my carry pistol I'm pretty darned certain it'll be within point-and-shoot range... less than 15 feet and in fairly well lit areas.
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So now you're clairvoyant.IMike1234567 said:
How about letting us in on the bases for your opinions? What sort of training have you had?
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
A good flashlight (like a good knife) is far more useful and used than a firearm. Last guy I lit up with a powerful flashlight saved his own life when his hands flew to his eyes thus proving to me that he had no weapons.
The neck point technique with a suitable flashlight is my favorite, though it's good to be proficient with all of them.
The neck point technique with a suitable flashlight is my favorite, though it's good to be proficient with all of them.
Mike1234567
member
fiddletown... I won't be drawn into an argument with you. Let's just agree that what works for me in my circumstances doesn't work for you in your circumstances. Okay?
Let's just say that you don't give me, or anyone else, any reason to pay attention to your opinions.Mike1234567 said:
Mike1234567
member
If one were to care to search, one would find that I have posted favorable remarks about CT grips. However, I only have them on one firearm.
About four years ago, I bought a stainless steel Smith & Wesson Mode 60 3" with target sights and good, full grips. When I mused aloud about putting on laser grips, the salesman, who was an instructor for his police department, said that when he teaches concealed carry courses he recommends against them. Not wanting to give up the feel of the factory grips, I opted against CT.
When I took my CC course, I asked the instructor for his opinion. Commenting about the age of his eyes and low light conditions, he said that he had lasers on all of his defensive handguns. So, when I bought my Airweight Centennial, I got CT grips. The only trick was to not try to use the sights and the red dot at the same time.
Later, when I decided that more capacity was a good idea, I bought a Smith and Wesson 9c. My idea was to order laser grips, but neither I nor the dealer knew at the time that they could not be used on the model with the ambidextrous safety, and that S&W advises against trying to convert the safety. So, the laser grips were out. However, the sights were OK.
At that rime, the sum total of my real training was very small.
I signed up for a high performance defensive pistol course, and the 9c was far from ideal. I decided to accept the compromise attendant in not using the recommended full size service pistol and to buy something larger and heavier than the 9c that I could carry. After receiving advice from members here including fiddletown, I bought an all steel STI Guardian .45 and used it in the course. I never even considered adding laser sights.
I see in the discussion above that most of the members with really extensive training have come down in the "con" column on CT grips, and I suggest that one would be far better served to listen to them than to me.
However, I do have an opinion, and that is that the CT grips do have some advantages under some circumstances.
First, I frankly cannot see the sights on a Model 442 well enough to use them in fast shooting; that's not true with my other handguns. Second, as Lee Lapin points out, laser sights are extremely useful for dry fire practice. Third, there are some people whose strong-side eye is somewhat impaired (my wife, who is diabetic, is one of them), and CT grips can make a lot of difference for them.
Hip shooting? For me, probably not for any distance. I worry to much about who might be downrange.
About four years ago, I bought a stainless steel Smith & Wesson Mode 60 3" with target sights and good, full grips. When I mused aloud about putting on laser grips, the salesman, who was an instructor for his police department, said that when he teaches concealed carry courses he recommends against them. Not wanting to give up the feel of the factory grips, I opted against CT.
When I took my CC course, I asked the instructor for his opinion. Commenting about the age of his eyes and low light conditions, he said that he had lasers on all of his defensive handguns. So, when I bought my Airweight Centennial, I got CT grips. The only trick was to not try to use the sights and the red dot at the same time.
Later, when I decided that more capacity was a good idea, I bought a Smith and Wesson 9c. My idea was to order laser grips, but neither I nor the dealer knew at the time that they could not be used on the model with the ambidextrous safety, and that S&W advises against trying to convert the safety. So, the laser grips were out. However, the sights were OK.
At that rime, the sum total of my real training was very small.
I signed up for a high performance defensive pistol course, and the 9c was far from ideal. I decided to accept the compromise attendant in not using the recommended full size service pistol and to buy something larger and heavier than the 9c that I could carry. After receiving advice from members here including fiddletown, I bought an all steel STI Guardian .45 and used it in the course. I never even considered adding laser sights.
I see in the discussion above that most of the members with really extensive training have come down in the "con" column on CT grips, and I suggest that one would be far better served to listen to them than to me.
However, I do have an opinion, and that is that the CT grips do have some advantages under some circumstances.
First, I frankly cannot see the sights on a Model 442 well enough to use them in fast shooting; that's not true with my other handguns. Second, as Lee Lapin points out, laser sights are extremely useful for dry fire practice. Third, there are some people whose strong-side eye is somewhat impaired (my wife, who is diabetic, is one of them), and CT grips can make a lot of difference for them.
Hip shooting? For me, probably not for any distance. I worry to much about who might be downrange.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I'll clarify something I may or may not have said before:
I agree with and like the idea of laser sights for training purposes.
The way I've practiced and trained (not the only way, but the way that works for me), in the instances where I wouldn't be looking for my front sight -- wherein I'm too close, things are happening too fast, and I'm shooting from retention (modification of "from the hip") -- I'm not looking for any sights at all, I don't need to and don't have time.
If that gun isn't up in front of my eyes, it's because I'm so close and pressed for time that indexing the gun against my body and pointing my body at the attacker (who's nearly on me) will put my rounds on target somewhere between waistband and shoulder blades. I don't have time or need to find the bouncing dot.
At any distance greater than ~3 yds, I'm at least going to have the gun silhouette in front of me, and probably will be seeing the front sight.
In the dark, I use a flashlight or ambient light. If I can't see him well enough to identify him, I can't see him well enough to shoot him. I certainly see how laser sights can help in that instance, but I don't use them, haven't trained that way, so honestly don't know if I could be faster/more accurate under those conditions -- or if I'd be able to take a shot I otherwise couldn't -- or not.
I agree with and like the idea of laser sights for training purposes.
The way I've practiced and trained (not the only way, but the way that works for me), in the instances where I wouldn't be looking for my front sight -- wherein I'm too close, things are happening too fast, and I'm shooting from retention (modification of "from the hip") -- I'm not looking for any sights at all, I don't need to and don't have time.
If that gun isn't up in front of my eyes, it's because I'm so close and pressed for time that indexing the gun against my body and pointing my body at the attacker (who's nearly on me) will put my rounds on target somewhere between waistband and shoulder blades. I don't have time or need to find the bouncing dot.
At any distance greater than ~3 yds, I'm at least going to have the gun silhouette in front of me, and probably will be seeing the front sight.
In the dark, I use a flashlight or ambient light. If I can't see him well enough to identify him, I can't see him well enough to shoot him. I certainly see how laser sights can help in that instance, but I don't use them, haven't trained that way, so honestly don't know if I could be faster/more accurate under those conditions -- or if I'd be able to take a shot I otherwise couldn't -- or not.
And I agree, which is not to say they are advantageous under all circumstances.
But the design allows you to use them when you chose to, and ignore them when you don't either as a training aid or for a real encounter. The only sure thing is that you can't use them - even if you want to - if they aren't there.
What the CT laser offers is an option when, for whatever reason you cannot use aimed fire. Nothing more and nothing less.
I will offer the observation that circumstance that prevent aimed fire are far more likely to happen "in the wild," then in most training courses or popular combat games.
I find this thought-provoking.
When I read it and reflect upon the task of quickly drawing and putting a couple of very fast shots into a violent, fast-moving, dangerous attacker, moving to a second attacker, and moving back to the first if necessary, I realize that I can do that much better by concentrating on the front sight than by pressing the trigger after having gotten the bounding ball onto and back onto the target.
For an out-door defensive encounter, that is what I think one should develop the skills for.
Yes, many people seem preoccupied with the home invader, but we can learn something about likelihood from the stats described in Tom Givens' "Lessons from the Street".
Regarding low-light situations, retirees like me who like to be back home before night-fall are less apt to face that issue with the carry gun than many others.
Just providing food for thought here.
When I read it and reflect upon the task of quickly drawing and putting a couple of very fast shots into a violent, fast-moving, dangerous attacker, moving to a second attacker, and moving back to the first if necessary, I realize that I can do that much better by concentrating on the front sight than by pressing the trigger after having gotten the bounding ball onto and back onto the target.
For an out-door defensive encounter, that is what I think one should develop the skills for.
Yes, many people seem preoccupied with the home invader, but we can learn something about likelihood from the stats described in Tom Givens' "Lessons from the Street".
Regarding low-light situations, retirees like me who like to be back home before night-fall are less apt to face that issue with the carry gun than many others.
Just providing food for thought here.
Somehow I have failed to make my point.
Everything you've said is absolutely true, but you are picking predictable examples of situations that fit your perspective - not to mention training.
But if you have a weapon that is equiped with a laser sight, using it, or not is entirely up to you. Obviously if a particular incident calls for a different option you should do whatever you think best. But since the particulars of some future incident are not certain, the availability of additional choices is never a negative.
Everything you've said is absolutely true, but you are picking predictable examples of situations that fit your perspective - not to mention training.
But if you have a weapon that is equiped with a laser sight, using it, or not is entirely up to you. Obviously if a particular incident calls for a different option you should do whatever you think best. But since the particulars of some future incident are not certain, the availability of additional choices is never a negative.
sm
member
Oh phooey!
I ain't been yelled at by any forum members lately so why not?
Folks, get the correct basic fundamentals of shooting down pat, and continue quality practice of these correct basic fundamentals.
I mean all shooting is, is doing the correct basic fundamentals over and over and over again. When one starts to have problems, it will always come down to the fact that one or more of the basics was not done.
Then when you have a good grasp of the basics, and have put in the trigger time and round count with your firearm where it is akin to a body part...
Learn, and it is advisable to get quality instructions, on other shooting methods.
Never forget the basics, and NEVER think you can buy skill and targets.
Software, not hardware.
I ain't been yelled at by any forum members lately so why not?
Folks, get the correct basic fundamentals of shooting down pat, and continue quality practice of these correct basic fundamentals.
I mean all shooting is, is doing the correct basic fundamentals over and over and over again. When one starts to have problems, it will always come down to the fact that one or more of the basics was not done.
Then when you have a good grasp of the basics, and have put in the trigger time and round count with your firearm where it is akin to a body part...
Learn, and it is advisable to get quality instructions, on other shooting methods.
Never forget the basics, and NEVER think you can buy skill and targets.
Software, not hardware.
Mike1234567
member
I hope I'm not making a pest of myself in this forum but fiddletown and I have had a bit of offline discussion which I'd like to share some of here.
First, fiddletown is a genuinely good guy and seems to be well versed in this arena. I am not.
Secondly, my opinion is based on my particular situation and that of, what I believe, is the vast majority of others. Most folks don't have a lot of training and experience in self-defense and the use of firearms for same. Until I'm given more data reflecting novice/amateur use of handguns both with and without lasers, I still hold my opinion that lasers are an excellent option for most of us.
ETA: Right or not... accept it or not... most of us either can't or won't acquire and/or hone the skills people are touting. Should we? Yes, of course. Will we? Probably not. Lasers work for a guy like me. I know because I've practiced on targets. Also, I know I'll completely suck at aiming when the adrenaline is pumping so I'll need all the help I can get. But, again, that's just me.
First, fiddletown is a genuinely good guy and seems to be well versed in this arena. I am not.
Secondly, my opinion is based on my particular situation and that of, what I believe, is the vast majority of others. Most folks don't have a lot of training and experience in self-defense and the use of firearms for same. Until I'm given more data reflecting novice/amateur use of handguns both with and without lasers, I still hold my opinion that lasers are an excellent option for most of us.
ETA: Right or not... accept it or not... most of us either can't or won't acquire and/or hone the skills people are touting. Should we? Yes, of course. Will we? Probably not. Lasers work for a guy like me. I know because I've practiced on targets. Also, I know I'll completely suck at aiming when the adrenaline is pumping so I'll need all the help I can get. But, again, that's just me.
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Mike, thank you. I'm glad we had our discussion and wish you the best.
And let me also clarify that I don't consider lasers to be useless. But I do think they are specialized devices with limited applications, and they don't take the place of a solid grounding in the fundamentals. As sm put it:
I'm actually toying with the idea of getting some Crimson Trace grips for one of my favorite carry (when I legally can) guns -- a Commander size 1911 with a bobtail. CT has just come out with some bobtail 1911 grips. But then again, I've done okay without a laser thus far.
And let me also clarify that I don't consider lasers to be useless. But I do think they are specialized devices with limited applications, and they don't take the place of a solid grounding in the fundamentals. As sm put it:
sm said:
I'm actually toying with the idea of getting some Crimson Trace grips for one of my favorite carry (when I legally can) guns -- a Commander size 1911 with a bobtail. CT has just come out with some bobtail 1911 grips. But then again, I've done okay without a laser thus far.
sm
member
Allow me answer some PMs here if I may.
I have nothing against new technologies that have and will come up.
I was raised such, and am known to be hard-headed about learning the correct basic fundamentals.
Gun fit to shooter with loads they can quickly and effectively shoot are part of correct basics, to me, if you will. It does not matter what the gun of the week is, nor ammo of the week is. The Reality, it is very unlikely any of your Internet buddies are going to be at your gunfight.
If a gun fits the shooter, it more naturally index or comes to "aim" and if need be, "points" for them. [Being an old shotgunner, shotguns are pointed, not aimed for skeet, bird hunting , etc.]
I come up with "Front Sight, Press" meaning use the darn sights, and use both hands.
Still the reality is, one may be in low light, or not have glasses on, or other reasons such as we are discussing where shooting other than two hand grip and using the sights are great skill sets to have...after having the correct mindset of course. *wink*
Examples:
-I was actually taught to shoot a revolver, and semi auto with the front sights removed. Theses lessons were to replicate the fact, in a serious situation I might bust off a front sight. So with guns that fit me, I was taught how to still a two hand grip and "index" the gun to make quick, effective hits.
[Use the side of the gun...]
-Now I had exceptional eyesight until my forties. I had what we called "Chuck Yeager" eyes.
Even so, I wore "scripted" glass to mess with my eyesight, much like someone who does wear glasses may lose glasses, or not have glasses on in a situation.
Again, gun fit, with loads I could make quick effective hits with was and to me, is still important.
Oh, and keep in mind Mentors had me shooting moving targets, even at bad breath distance.
Me and mine, in a serious work we did, had gold bead front sights on our guns. I still believe in these...
It seems as I have gotten older, some sights on guns have shrunk. I don't recall any of these guns having been left in the dryer...
So if for you, a larger sight, "glow worm" ( and neon green works best for me) or night sights allow YOU to better see sights on a gun that fits, and you can pick up with peripheral vision in the various methods of hip shooting we are discussing, I have no problem with that.
Nor do I have a problem with laser such as CTs.
I do have a problem with folks trying to buy skill and targets. In a serious situation one does not have the time to "wrap around" a gun, to get sights on target, not even at bad breath distance.
Focus on the target, not the equipment -Will Fennel
Sending best,
Steve
I have nothing against new technologies that have and will come up.
I was raised such, and am known to be hard-headed about learning the correct basic fundamentals.
Gun fit to shooter with loads they can quickly and effectively shoot are part of correct basics, to me, if you will. It does not matter what the gun of the week is, nor ammo of the week is. The Reality, it is very unlikely any of your Internet buddies are going to be at your gunfight.
If a gun fits the shooter, it more naturally index or comes to "aim" and if need be, "points" for them. [Being an old shotgunner, shotguns are pointed, not aimed for skeet, bird hunting , etc.]
I come up with "Front Sight, Press" meaning use the darn sights, and use both hands.
Still the reality is, one may be in low light, or not have glasses on, or other reasons such as we are discussing where shooting other than two hand grip and using the sights are great skill sets to have...after having the correct mindset of course. *wink*
Examples:
-I was actually taught to shoot a revolver, and semi auto with the front sights removed. Theses lessons were to replicate the fact, in a serious situation I might bust off a front sight. So with guns that fit me, I was taught how to still a two hand grip and "index" the gun to make quick, effective hits.
[Use the side of the gun...]
-Now I had exceptional eyesight until my forties. I had what we called "Chuck Yeager" eyes.
Even so, I wore "scripted" glass to mess with my eyesight, much like someone who does wear glasses may lose glasses, or not have glasses on in a situation.
Again, gun fit, with loads I could make quick effective hits with was and to me, is still important.
Oh, and keep in mind Mentors had me shooting moving targets, even at bad breath distance.
Me and mine, in a serious work we did, had gold bead front sights on our guns. I still believe in these...
It seems as I have gotten older, some sights on guns have shrunk. I don't recall any of these guns having been left in the dryer...
So if for you, a larger sight, "glow worm" ( and neon green works best for me) or night sights allow YOU to better see sights on a gun that fits, and you can pick up with peripheral vision in the various methods of hip shooting we are discussing, I have no problem with that.
Nor do I have a problem with laser such as CTs.
I do have a problem with folks trying to buy skill and targets. In a serious situation one does not have the time to "wrap around" a gun, to get sights on target, not even at bad breath distance.
Focus on the target, not the equipment -Will Fennel
Sending best,
Steve
X-Rap
Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 6,657
This has all been very interesting to read but I think it leaves out 50% of the equation. In a situation in which you are unable to use your sights you will likely have an attacker trying to kill you at very close range. This could be by knife, gun, club, or brute force. In a situation which the attack is already underway and the bad guy has the initiative pulling your gun could be the worst thing to do and speedrocking back on your hips will only help your attacker drive you to the ground and possibly separate you from your weapon.
In the OP it says the cop and bg both surprised one another at around 12'. I don't know if they then in shock stopped and drew and began firing, had guns drawn prior and just shot reflexively from the hip, or if it was a dynamic situation in which one or both continued to close in the attack. In all but the last I can't see why one would not engage from what ever position the gun was in and then progress to aimed fire, your initial shot or shots may not hit vitals or even miss but by second or third at 12' you should be making serious hits. In the third case some physical avoidance and deflection technique with drawing and firing after some separation might be appropriate. Few of us are MMA cage fighters but we all should recognize that just having a gun and being able to shoot it well probably won't win the fight in a physical attack that comes as a surprise. Take the famous Tom Cruise gunfight and remove his element of surprise and give it to the other two men in the scene. I think the outcome would be different and his blazing speed would need to be backed up by some quick footwork and both offensive and defensive handwork before he employed that gun.
In the OP it says the cop and bg both surprised one another at around 12'. I don't know if they then in shock stopped and drew and began firing, had guns drawn prior and just shot reflexively from the hip, or if it was a dynamic situation in which one or both continued to close in the attack. In all but the last I can't see why one would not engage from what ever position the gun was in and then progress to aimed fire, your initial shot or shots may not hit vitals or even miss but by second or third at 12' you should be making serious hits. In the third case some physical avoidance and deflection technique with drawing and firing after some separation might be appropriate. Few of us are MMA cage fighters but we all should recognize that just having a gun and being able to shoot it well probably won't win the fight in a physical attack that comes as a surprise. Take the famous Tom Cruise gunfight and remove his element of surprise and give it to the other two men in the scene. I think the outcome would be different and his blazing speed would need to be backed up by some quick footwork and both offensive and defensive handwork before he employed that gun.
Mike1234567 said:
In my instruction of new shooters, or even practiced shooters, over the last few years, the issue of laser sights often come up. It is well marketed and is the ultimate form of trying to buy skill (yes, sm; it really bothers me too). But take it with a grain of salt, it took me a long time to accept night sights too...but then I could hit in the dark without them
Being able to see a laser dot on a target usually gives the user a false sense of ability to place their shot accurately by pressing the trigger...after all the laser is on the target, so the gun must be pointed correctly...while completely ignoring that the ultimate ability to hit your target has to do with the ability to correctly manage the trigger press. This is the great disservice that that is being frosted on the public through clever marketing.
The disservice that users bring upon themselves in considering using a laser in defensive shooting...as opposed to in training where it actually has some use...is that it is much slower for followup shots as it elongates the OODA loop. You'll need to find the dot, recognize that it is on target and then decide (since you've taken you focus off to find the dot) to fire the next shot. In sighted fire the appearance of the sights back on target cues the next shot.
I've found laser equipped weapons useful for a number of things, but mostly in training
If you have practiced enough to be able to hit a target illuminated with a laser dot "when the adrenaline is pumping" you could just as easily do it looking over your sights or indexing with your body
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
The problem with having some sort of preconceived notion of how many or how few shots you'll fire is that the bad guy isn't very interested in cooperating with your plan. What happens when those two ineffective shots into a non-vital below the diaphragm results in his trapping your hip held handgun?
Much better to go to position two of the four count draw and get an unsighted but bodily indexed shot into the upper chest. From there you can extend as needed to end the fight and start looking for other bad guys to shoot. There is always "one more" or at least that's how you should plan.
I'm puzzled at the neck shot. That's a difficult target to hit and unless you tag the spine or big veins & arteries, probably not that effective. IMHO, better to go for the dinner plate sized upper chest.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Fast and Fancy Pistol Shooting is a great book that is out of print. It has an entire chapter on hip shooting.
I do a cylinder full every time I got to the range. I am best at 3 to 5 yards.
I do a cylinder full every time I got to the range. I am best at 3 to 5 yards.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Actually the title is Fast & Fancy revolver Shooting by Ed McGivern.
It is still available from Amazon.com
It is still available from Amazon.com
Maple_City_Woodsman
Member
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2011
- Messages
- 430
Many instructors teach a style of draw which incorporates the movements of a 'speed rock', or what most call 'shooting from retention'.
In this manner one can shoot from the hip at a very close target, or at one which is rapidly closing a gap.
In this manner one can shoot from the hip at a very close target, or at one which is rapidly closing a gap.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
The "speed rock" was a terrible position apparently unfortunately thought up by Jeff Cooper. If you execute it as designed (palm strike to the BGs face, draw, rotate pistol at the holster, then fire)) it does two remarkable things:
One, it gets both an inaccurate and poorly placed shot off.
Two, it then bends the shooter off balance and backwards so the bad guy is encouraged to knock him down and kick him senseless/dead.
True shooting from retention is a step two (one handed) or step three (both hands controlling the handgun.
These days, good trainers teach students how to fight with a gun. That is indeed different than what was instructed in the past.
For some great information on where we are now that the state of the art has evolved, Paul Gomez is providing lots of information on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gomez8136#p/u/7/4NKngkVXMGg
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