Shotgun or AR for Home Defense
- Thread starter rav373
- Start date
- Status
My point was the poster did not seem to see the merits of having an AR and they were a waste of money. It may be erroneous postulating on my part, but I figured he may be the type to find a barebones AK "good enough" and not put the money into such things as attached flashlights. My response was also fairly tongue in cheek
Duct tape solves a lot of issues, but I am aware that they do make modular accessories for the AK. It's just that most people that hail them as better that AR platform are too busy throwing them in the mud to accessorize them Again, another tease on my part. Shogun, AR, or AK. They all make fine, fine weapons in the hands of those who know how to use them.
Most engagements are less than 15 feet. I encourage ANYONE to try this experiment:
Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass. Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.
Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3? Well lets say you can pull it in the same amount of time. You have 20 rounds on target. I have 27. You pulled 20 times. I pulled 3. Winner again? Shotgun.
Now lets talk worst case and both guns suffer catastrophic malfunctions after the first shot. Both first shots were decent since the shooter is under extreme duress. Which gun has the better chance of having ended the threat after only one shot? Shotgun wins again.
Which gun is more mobile? Winner AR. But I've never heard of a SD class that taught you to go looking for the bad guy.
Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.
Over penetration? Winner (or loser depending) Shotgun.
Under powered? Neither.
What about having to shoot through a wall to get to the bad guy though? Frangible vs Lead. Winner? Lead.
Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?
Inside I just don't see how it gets better than a shotgun for putting BG's on the ground at the average distance of engagements.
Take a fairly new shooter to the range. Take an AR and a 12 or 20 gauge. Give them one round in each weapon. Set silhouette up at 15 feet. Give the shooter 3 seconds to pick up each weapon and deliver one shot, center mass. Then count the number, and size of the holes on target. Every hole is a wound channel. Every wound channel in a vital is a kill. Winner? Shotgun.
Now lets say you have 2 in the tube and 1 in the chamber on your 12 gauge. And you have an AR with a 20 round magazine. Is someone really going to tell me they they can pull the trigger on an AR 20 times before I can pull it 3? Well lets say you can pull it in the same amount of time. You have 20 rounds on target. I have 27. You pulled 20 times. I pulled 3. Winner again? Shotgun.
Now lets talk worst case and both guns suffer catastrophic malfunctions after the first shot. Both first shots were decent since the shooter is under extreme duress. Which gun has the better chance of having ended the threat after only one shot? Shotgun wins again.
Which gun is more mobile? Winner AR. But I've never heard of a SD class that taught you to go looking for the bad guy.
Which gun is easier to get on target in low light situations? Winner again, Shotgun. Just look down the barrel and pull the trigger. Aiming isn't a complete necessity. It's called a scatter gun for a reason.
Over penetration? Winner (or loser depending) Shotgun.
Under powered? Neither.
What about having to shoot through a wall to get to the bad guy though? Frangible vs Lead. Winner? Lead.
Recoil? Winner AR no question. But how many people have you read about that complained that a gun kicked to hard when they were in a life or death situation?
Inside I just don't see how it gets better than a shotgun for putting BG's on the ground at the average distance of engagements.
Tommy Van Alen
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2012
- Messages
- 36
Remington makes or used to make this TAC 8 double aught buckshot load. It has alot of buffer added to it, but because it is 8 pellets instead of the usual 9, it actually patterned tighter. The best though is that Federal Flite Control Wad. That stuff patterns TIGHT! 
I'd rather go with the shotgun instead of the AR because any buckshot or low recoil slugs will work in a pump and that kind of ammo is more available to me rather than the uber expensive .223 self defense ammo.
Maybe this was mentioned already, but like that thread on using handloads/reloads in your night stand gun, I think the prosecutor would and could use that "EEEkkk... He used that evil black rifle....He had bad intent in his heart...He was looking for a fight...." as leverage against to convince a jury of whatever.
I'd rather go with the shotgun instead of the AR because any buckshot or low recoil slugs will work in a pump and that kind of ammo is more available to me rather than the uber expensive .223 self defense ammo.
Maybe this was mentioned already, but like that thread on using handloads/reloads in your night stand gun, I think the prosecutor would and could use that "EEEkkk... He used that evil black rifle....He had bad intent in his heart...He was looking for a fight...." as leverage against to convince a jury of whatever.
BigBore, you're making the assumption that the additional holes from a short-range shotgun equate to much more effectiveness. I don't think that's true. The wound inflicted by good .223 ammunition at close range is devastating.
John
John
Sam Cade
Member
What is the longest range that you could engage at in your home?
How large of a pattern does your shotgun throw at that range?
JPG19
Member
There are so many unfounded assumptions in this post, it makes my head hurt. By your logic, birdshot would be yet an even better choice, as it offers even more wound channels than the others. However, if you have ever killed anything with a .223/5.56 (as I have multiple times [deer and coyotes]) then you would know just how devastating this round is. The size of the wound channel and the amount of tissue that is shredded by the round is just astonishing.
Either gun works well, why so many feel they must justify to others which one they prefer is beyond me. Choose what you are most effective and comfortable with. All I'm saying is that there's a reason the best military in the world uses the 5.56x45mm round, even in urban combat situations. Because they have done more research and investigations into which weapons to use, I generally follow their lead. 9mm? Check. AR15? Check. Training and support gear? Check. OR, I could use Google and hope that I'm reading accurate information. Shotguns are fine home defense weapons, and I would be more than happy to grab one in a HD situation. I just can't stand when people make so many blanket statements, that's all.
-James
p.s. Shooting a target that you can't see THROUGH a wall is just about the dumbest suggestion I've heard yet. Someone told me something one time about being aware of what you're shooting and what's beyond it, but I can't remember who...
Last edited:
Jenrick
Member
BigBore: I'm not going to address all your points as I do agree with some of them.
If you haven't shown the new shooter how to take the safety off or load the chamber then neither weapon system will get a round off. If you give them a loaded weapon with one in the chamber and safety off, the the amount of time to fire either will probably be similar. Using a ghost ring on either weapon both will probably have good hits. Using a bead on the shotgun, and they'll probably strike high.
Assuming you are using expanding rather then fragmenting 5.56 ammo, and good high quality #1-000 buck then I'd agree with you. However even purpose designed expanding 5.56 ammo can still fragment which will create numerous wound channels, usually in excess of what a shot shell carries in payload.
You maybe not, I have no clue how fast you can run a shotgun. The vast majority of new shooters however, can't even dry cycle a pump faster them they can pull the trigger 20 times on an AR firing actual rounds. Throw in recoil and trying to get back on their sights with a 12 gauge and it's even more lopsided. That's assuming they don't short stroke the pump, etc. If you're talking a soft recoiling auto like an 1100, then it'd be much closer I'll give you that.
I'll agree that a single shell of #1 through 000 buck is probably more effective then a single 5.56 round. However I think both if placed in the appropriate area are probably non-survivable.
On this one I disagree completely. If you're using a good load (Federal Tactical #00 9 pellet tru-flight for instance) at the 15 foot distance you specified you're pattern is not much bigger then bore diameter. It'll stay under 4"-5" out to 15 yds almost. You need to aim a shotgun at HD ranges just as much as a rifle. Also you can just throw the rifle up to the shoulder, look right over the sights and still make halfway decent hits at 3 yards. It's not hard. Both of them require the same skill set to get on target. An experience shotgunn'er might fell more comfortable with the instinctive swing of their shotgun, but I can tell you that if you run a rifle long enough you can do almost the same thing and use the sights at CQB distance.
There are quiet a few 5.56 rounds out there that are "barrier blind" meaning a bonded bullet that will happily go through drywall, sheet metal, auto glass, etc. to find the felon and still perform well. A shotgun pellet in comparison doesn't work nearly as well when going through barriers. A slug on the other hand is a different ball game, but present some over penetration hazards even after passing through the barrier AND felon.
Recoil isn't so much the issue in terms of pain, but in the need to make a fast follow shot either as the threat is still there or in the case you won the bad luck lottery and there are additional threats. Assuming a missed first round (or a less then effective hit), the need to make that follow on shot is important, and the more recoil the more difficult it is to do so quickly.
Overall I think both have a decent utility inside a home.
Louis Awerbuck always spoke of the shotgun as the poor mans SMG, with each pull of the trigger equating to a burst from a SMG. I think this helps in the comparison to the carbine platform. Both have sufficient lethality, both had adequate ammo for almost all encounters, and both require sufficient training to utilize.
A shotgun is not a difficult weapon to learn to shoot in the sense of a typical home defense scenario (make it hot, or take the safety off, fire 1 or 2 rounds). In my experience both in LE and private side as an instructor, it is in general easier to teach people to run the weapon beyond the HD scenario with a carbine. The lower recoil and less actions needed to make the weapon fire each time contribute to this. Manipulating the weapon to keep it running (reloads and malf clearances) are about equal in a way with a shotgun. Reloads are easier then a shotgun, and malf clearances more involved then a shotgun (assuming we're talking a pump, auto's are IMO about as bad as an AR in terms of the types and # of steps in a malf clearance).
Both systems serve well in the home, and both will continue to do so. Cost, ability to train, secondary usage of the weapon (hunting, sporting, etc.) all factor into works well for the shooter in terms of HD.
If you haven't shown the new shooter how to take the safety off or load the chamber then neither weapon system will get a round off. If you give them a loaded weapon with one in the chamber and safety off, the the amount of time to fire either will probably be similar. Using a ghost ring on either weapon both will probably have good hits. Using a bead on the shotgun, and they'll probably strike high.
Assuming you are using expanding rather then fragmenting 5.56 ammo, and good high quality #1-000 buck then I'd agree with you. However even purpose designed expanding 5.56 ammo can still fragment which will create numerous wound channels, usually in excess of what a shot shell carries in payload.
You maybe not, I have no clue how fast you can run a shotgun. The vast majority of new shooters however, can't even dry cycle a pump faster them they can pull the trigger 20 times on an AR firing actual rounds. Throw in recoil and trying to get back on their sights with a 12 gauge and it's even more lopsided. That's assuming they don't short stroke the pump, etc. If you're talking a soft recoiling auto like an 1100, then it'd be much closer I'll give you that.
I'll agree that a single shell of #1 through 000 buck is probably more effective then a single 5.56 round. However I think both if placed in the appropriate area are probably non-survivable.
On this one I disagree completely. If you're using a good load (Federal Tactical #00 9 pellet tru-flight for instance) at the 15 foot distance you specified you're pattern is not much bigger then bore diameter. It'll stay under 4"-5" out to 15 yds almost. You need to aim a shotgun at HD ranges just as much as a rifle. Also you can just throw the rifle up to the shoulder, look right over the sights and still make halfway decent hits at 3 yards. It's not hard. Both of them require the same skill set to get on target. An experience shotgunn'er might fell more comfortable with the instinctive swing of their shotgun, but I can tell you that if you run a rifle long enough you can do almost the same thing and use the sights at CQB distance.
There are quiet a few 5.56 rounds out there that are "barrier blind" meaning a bonded bullet that will happily go through drywall, sheet metal, auto glass, etc. to find the felon and still perform well. A shotgun pellet in comparison doesn't work nearly as well when going through barriers. A slug on the other hand is a different ball game, but present some over penetration hazards even after passing through the barrier AND felon.
Recoil isn't so much the issue in terms of pain, but in the need to make a fast follow shot either as the threat is still there or in the case you won the bad luck lottery and there are additional threats. Assuming a missed first round (or a less then effective hit), the need to make that follow on shot is important, and the more recoil the more difficult it is to do so quickly.
Overall I think both have a decent utility inside a home.
Louis Awerbuck always spoke of the shotgun as the poor mans SMG, with each pull of the trigger equating to a burst from a SMG. I think this helps in the comparison to the carbine platform. Both have sufficient lethality, both had adequate ammo for almost all encounters, and both require sufficient training to utilize.
A shotgun is not a difficult weapon to learn to shoot in the sense of a typical home defense scenario (make it hot, or take the safety off, fire 1 or 2 rounds). In my experience both in LE and private side as an instructor, it is in general easier to teach people to run the weapon beyond the HD scenario with a carbine. The lower recoil and less actions needed to make the weapon fire each time contribute to this. Manipulating the weapon to keep it running (reloads and malf clearances) are about equal in a way with a shotgun. Reloads are easier then a shotgun, and malf clearances more involved then a shotgun (assuming we're talking a pump, auto's are IMO about as bad as an AR in terms of the types and # of steps in a malf clearance).
Both systems serve well in the home, and both will continue to do so. Cost, ability to train, secondary usage of the weapon (hunting, sporting, etc.) all factor into works well for the shooter in terms of HD.
Ok guys,
I completely agree that with the propper ammo, the 5.56/223 IS a devestating round. I have seen it shatter ribs, completely obliterate femurs, etc. I make no bones about that. I have taken deer and yotes and lots of other critters with it. But I have also seen what 00 and 000 buck have done to people. Father was a police officer in Tulsa 25 years,Mother ER nurse for 40 years. Sometimes I saw pics. Sometimes I saw in person. And I can tell you first hand what a center mass shot from a shotgun at about 15 feet with 00 will do to a person. I bet you could even google some images. It's not pretty.
As far as the comment about bird shot goes, I have a friend of mine who while serving a warrant was shot with 7 1/2 bird shot twice. He is alive and well and you can still feel the pellets under his skin. But I also dropped a wild pig at about 12 yards last year while scouting for ducks with a 3" #2 steel shot. So maybe it's not that weak of a round.
Now to the short stroking the slide.. It does happen to people occasionally. More practice makes one more profecient. So does buying a shotgun that fits the shooter. I wouldn't give my 5'3" girlfriend my Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel and expect her to be all that great with it. It's too heavy, and to long a LOP for her. But a youth 870 20 gauge? I can have her running it like a champ in a week.
How far can I engage an BG in my house? About 35-45 feet. And I will activly pursue the BG in my house should the need ever arise. But we are talking about a man's wife. Not me. She should be holed up in her bedroom, door locked, behind the bed, calling 911.
But this argument of which is better is truly futile. It's no different than the 9mm vs 45 debate. With propper bullet placement both are going to kill you. And I should have known better than to throw my dog in this fight. So I'll concede and say the AR is the GREATEST everything weapon of all time. It is the master of all situations.
My hope for the OP is that his wife never faces a situation like what he is trying to equip her for.
I completely agree that with the propper ammo, the 5.56/223 IS a devestating round. I have seen it shatter ribs, completely obliterate femurs, etc. I make no bones about that. I have taken deer and yotes and lots of other critters with it. But I have also seen what 00 and 000 buck have done to people. Father was a police officer in Tulsa 25 years,Mother ER nurse for 40 years. Sometimes I saw pics. Sometimes I saw in person. And I can tell you first hand what a center mass shot from a shotgun at about 15 feet with 00 will do to a person. I bet you could even google some images. It's not pretty.
As far as the comment about bird shot goes, I have a friend of mine who while serving a warrant was shot with 7 1/2 bird shot twice. He is alive and well and you can still feel the pellets under his skin. But I also dropped a wild pig at about 12 yards last year while scouting for ducks with a 3" #2 steel shot. So maybe it's not that weak of a round.
Now to the short stroking the slide.. It does happen to people occasionally. More practice makes one more profecient. So does buying a shotgun that fits the shooter. I wouldn't give my 5'3" girlfriend my Benelli Nova with a 28" barrel and expect her to be all that great with it. It's too heavy, and to long a LOP for her. But a youth 870 20 gauge? I can have her running it like a champ in a week.
How far can I engage an BG in my house? About 35-45 feet. And I will activly pursue the BG in my house should the need ever arise. But we are talking about a man's wife. Not me. She should be holed up in her bedroom, door locked, behind the bed, calling 911.
But this argument of which is better is truly futile. It's no different than the 9mm vs 45 debate. With propper bullet placement both are going to kill you. And I should have known better than to throw my dog in this fight. So I'll concede and say the AR is the GREATEST everything weapon of all time. It is the master of all situations.
My hope for the OP is that his wife never faces a situation like what he is trying to equip her for.
In my experience buckshot can have a pattern as small as 1.5" at 7 yards and as small as 4.5" at 25 yards. That doesn't give you much of a window to miss by with your "scatter gun." If you aren't aiming you are very likely to miss particularly at short ranges.
The more a pattern opens the more likely you are to be sending errant pellets (read liabilities) into places you may not intend or desire to.
I'd say my AR with an aimpoint actually has a pretty good edge on all of my shotguns and their various sighting systems, save the shotgun that also wears a red dot.
As noted previously by another poster this is not an issue of pain. It is an issue of followup shots, transitioning to additional threats, and the like. Those are still real issues and the shotgun will still be slower, particularly with buck and slugs.
Go to a three gun match. There you find people who are much more involved in shooting than the average person. You also see that people short stroking is really not that uncommon when they are operating under stress.
The silliness of equating one hit from one shotgun pellet (say a 00 buck .30 cal round ball weighing 60 grains and going 1100 FPS) to one hit from a 5.56 or 300 blk bullet has already been touched on to some degree.
I'd suggest you take a new shooter to the range and set up three or four targets and have the shooter fire a shot at each and measure for time (self defense is often a time is life situation), accuracy, and consider potential terminal ballistics. Have them double tap and do the same thing. You start to see that with slug or buck many shooters are going to be a lot slower and the recoil and even make them miss followups or transitions completely if they try to push it too fast or don't know how to manage the recoil.
I never heard of one that advocates holing up in your bedroom if you have child in another part of the house that you need to secure. I have heard a number of people who teach pistol, rifle and shot gun classes talk about the fact that they would need to go secure family members. Mobility in a house is for a lot of folks going to be a very important consideration.
See above. I also take exception to the idea that someone you don't know ought to be cowering behind the bed simply because she is a woman but that you, a big strong man, can go out and chase down the bad guy. Situations dictate tactics more than the presence of a Y chromosome.
How fast are you? People can get pretty fast with an AR. This is a 300 blk (read more muzzle rise and recoil than a 5.56) and he is transitioning between multiple targets. In other words he might be faster with a 5.56 and just firing at one target. I counted 14 shots in about three seconds. Each 300 BLk round is vastly more powerful than each 00 buck pellet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07joBnOuv4M
Why not simply say that some of your arguments were not very well thought out and that "best" first requires defining specific requirements and criteria. Each has relative strengths and weaknesses.
A shotgun will have realitively tight patterns in a home, even with open cylinder. The shorter the barrel, the better.
What is the longest range that you could engage at in your home?
How large of a pattern does your shotgun throw at that range?
If you do have a SBS (or sawn off) remember to use copper plated buckshot, because you loose velocity with the shorter barrel, and the copper plating increases penetration. Buffered shot has nice patterns.
tnxdshooter
Member
I prefer to use this with Winchester PDX1 buckshot.
Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.
Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.
Girodon,
Don't play the macho, sexist game. Thats very THR of you. The OP never stated that they had children in the home so I was operating under the assumption that they do not. And I am also operating under the assumption that she hasn't been engulfed in the shooting sports like you or I. Nor has she had the training ie; building searches, slicing the pie, the use of tactical lights, defensive tactics, that I have had. And I seriously doubt she is an active duty police officer or force recon. So pursuing danger probably isn't her thing. It truly amazes me how (some) AR lovers want to jump all over someone when they say that an AR isn't the greatest gun for every situation of all time. It's a great weapon. It has places it shines. It has it's shortcomings. So does every weapon made. My Benelli isn't going to compete at Camp Perry. But my M1A will. And my M1A isn't going to do so hot in the duck blind. Some guns are terrible in certain situations. I don't think the AR is terrible or even bad for HD with enough money for ammo and training. I just think in the OP'e situation, that a shotgun would better serve him and his wife.
Oh the holosights? Yes that's perfect to depend on! Battery operated electronics. Nothing like making sure "Ok I need to push this button, turn this knob"
And what happens if the batters craps out on her? Now what does she do? K.I.S.S.
How fast can I run my shotgun on target? 3 shots, 3 separate targets under 3 seconds. I have also been using a shotgun my whole life. I'm fast enough. But I don't use a shotgun for HD. Nor do I use an AR. But which would I prefer my novice girlfriend or wife use should she be home alone? I choose the shotgun.
You want to use an AR for HD? Ok cool. I don't have a problem with that. It would't matter if i did. I hope if that situation ever arises that you send that BG straight to hell and you and your family are safe.
Don't play the macho, sexist game. Thats very THR of you. The OP never stated that they had children in the home so I was operating under the assumption that they do not. And I am also operating under the assumption that she hasn't been engulfed in the shooting sports like you or I. Nor has she had the training ie; building searches, slicing the pie, the use of tactical lights, defensive tactics, that I have had. And I seriously doubt she is an active duty police officer or force recon. So pursuing danger probably isn't her thing. It truly amazes me how (some) AR lovers want to jump all over someone when they say that an AR isn't the greatest gun for every situation of all time. It's a great weapon. It has places it shines. It has it's shortcomings. So does every weapon made. My Benelli isn't going to compete at Camp Perry. But my M1A will. And my M1A isn't going to do so hot in the duck blind. Some guns are terrible in certain situations. I don't think the AR is terrible or even bad for HD with enough money for ammo and training. I just think in the OP'e situation, that a shotgun would better serve him and his wife.
Oh the holosights? Yes that's perfect to depend on! Battery operated electronics. Nothing like making sure "Ok I need to push this button, turn this knob"
And what happens if the batters craps out on her? Now what does she do? K.I.S.S.
How fast can I run my shotgun on target? 3 shots, 3 separate targets under 3 seconds. I have also been using a shotgun my whole life. I'm fast enough. But I don't use a shotgun for HD. Nor do I use an AR. But which would I prefer my novice girlfriend or wife use should she be home alone? I choose the shotgun.
You want to use an AR for HD? Ok cool. I don't have a problem with that. It would't matter if i did. I hope if that situation ever arises that you send that BG straight to hell and you and your family are safe.
Jason_W
Member
I prefer shotguns on account of their lower cost, versatility, and potential as a do-all gun. The last one is important as I live semi-rural and there are things I can do with a shotgun that I can't with a centerfire rifle.
Jenrick
Member
Jason_W: Not being argumentative at all, just curious. What things can you do with a shotgun that you can't do with a center fire rifle? As an Urban dweller I don't have a frame of reference for the needs of a rural/semi-rural dweller.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
Jason_W
Member
1. Shoot small animals without pulverizing them.
2. Shoot small animals out of the air and off tree limbs without having to worry about endangering people miles away.
If I didn't live in a place where hunting and pest control were a possibility, my firearms choices would be dictated by what I could afford and what I enjoyed taking to the range the most.
What I like about shotguns is that by simply changing up ammo and choke tubes, I can defend myself, shoot small game, eliminate vermin, and kill all North American hoofed game out to about 100 yards. To top it all off, the above can be accomplished with an investment of well under what most ARs cost.
Sauer Grapes
Member
I shot an IDPA match last year. One station involved kneeling down, pick up a Mossberg pump and firing one shot at a steel popper at about 30 feet. I was amazed how many people missed that 2 1/2 foot tall popper. Aiming is required with a shotgun at close range.
That said, I'm so comfortable with shotguns and handguns, a rifle would be my last choice.
That said, I'm so comfortable with shotguns and handguns, a rifle would be my last choice.
Dirty Bob
Member
That stage at the match wasn't that far-fetched, though. All of us should know how to run the major types of rifles, shotguns and handguns, if only for the sake of safety. By the way, in the AR or shotgun question for HD, why can't I choose both?
All my best,
Dirty Bob
All my best,
Dirty Bob
allaroundhunter
Member
At 3 gun matches I see more people miss with shotgun than with their AR at defensive ranges....and that is using #7 1/2 birdshot...
I think the recoil with a 12, while potentially an issue when addressing multiple targets, is more a problem with shooters learning and wanting to learn how to use a HD firearm. I've had an inexperienced 12 y/o happily shooting an AR15. I know for certain that if he'd fired one full-power Foster slug (the reduced recoil overpenetrate for HD use) or one round of buckshot, he would have been through. And very angry at me, possibly to the point of never trusting my advice about firearms again.
There is a MAJOR difference between #2 and 7 1/2 shot. #2 is approaching a size that I would use without complaint for HD, if I had nothing larger. I would only be certain 7 1/2 would work within 5', IF the attacker wasn't large, wearing heavy clothing, or on any intoxicants.
John
There is a MAJOR difference between #2 and 7 1/2 shot. #2 is approaching a size that I would use without complaint for HD, if I had nothing larger. I would only be certain 7 1/2 would work within 5', IF the attacker wasn't large, wearing heavy clothing, or on any intoxicants.
John
allaroundhunter
Member
If you think small statured women have problems with 12 gauges, go google Katie Francis and watch a video...
She is quite the shooter and handles a 12 ga well.
She is quite the shooter and handles a 12 ga well.
The only blanket statement I intended was that learning to shoot a 12 gauge with effective HD ammunition was a considerably more painful experience than shooting a .223, and that recoil challenge could lead to a lack of practice or outright rejection of the shotgun. I in no way meant to impugn the abilities of any professional athletes of any sex or age.
allaroundhunter
Member
I wasn't responding directly to you John... To be honest I kinda ignored your post because I figured it wasn't one to argue with.
I was saying that in general, small stature and 12 ga shotguns are not mutually exclusive terms
I was saying that in general, small stature and 12 ga shotguns are not mutually exclusive terms
Dirty Bob
Member
One easy answer to 12 ga. recoil is to go with either the low-recoil buckshot, or to switch to the 20 ga. I'm very happy with the 20 ga: my Mossberg 500 is light and quick, yet I find it kicks less than my 12 ga. with buckshot. If I add one or two accessories, it should still handle well (unlike some overloaded shotguns I've tried -- come on, two sidesaddles?), while the recoil will be even tamer.
I've shot ARs and like them, but I can't choose one, because I went with my favorite defensive rifle caliber: .303 Brit. In my sporterized No.4 Mk1* (sporterized before I bought it cheap), it does not kick less than the shotgun! It cost less, though!
I still say there's really no bad choice between an AR and a good shotgun for HD. As long as you are trained with it, either will serve superlatively.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
I've shot ARs and like them, but I can't choose one, because I went with my favorite defensive rifle caliber: .303 Brit. In my sporterized No.4 Mk1* (sporterized before I bought it cheap), it does not kick less than the shotgun! It cost less, though!
I still say there's really no bad choice between an AR and a good shotgun for HD. As long as you are trained with it, either will serve superlatively.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
- Status
