Should mental health records be part of the NICS background check?

Should mental health records be part of the NICS check?

  • Yes

    Votes: 101 45.3%
  • No

    Votes: 122 54.7%

  • Total voters
    223
Status
Not open for further replies.
Art,

It is not that clear cut. Taken from discussion of the current NRA backed bill:

Bartholomew Roberts:

However, if you look at Section 102(c)(1)(A), it says "shall make electronically available to the Attorney General records relevant to a determination of whether a person is disqualified from possessing or receiving a firearm" - you could interpret this to mean that anything that helps the state determine whether or not you are a prohibited person must be included.


David
 
We currently live...

under these very conditions here in Hawaii.

In order to acquire a handgun in Hawaii you have to obtain a Permit to Acquire. The application for this permit consist of a questionaire very similiar to the 7743 (or whatever the number is), a form giving the police permission to contact your doctor to see if he/she knows of any reason you shouldn't be allowed to buy a firearm, and a form giving the the police permission to contact the mental health agency (don't remember the exact title) to see if you have had any contacts with them.

This last form seems to allow them to deny your permit for any contact. I've hear reliable reports of people being denied for visiting a therapist when they were 12 to help with incidents of bedwetting (the person was in their 40's at time of denial, had only seen the therapist 3 times, with no other mental health interactions) and for seeing a therapist after the death of a spouse of 35 years (person was nowhere near a danger, just needed someone to talk out his feelings with and didn't want to burden his friends by being the 'guy that won't shut up about his dead wife'). The denial is not permanent and can be reversed with a letter from an MD saying you are no longer affected by the condition that caused you to seek mental health assistance.

As you might guess, most doctors are reluctant to sign such a letter.

To the poster worried if they are out to deny him... yes they are, any way they can figure to deny one more person they will take it.

To the poster who has a bug up his nose about non-citizens and the RKBA: does this "rights are only for citizens" apply to the other nine also?

migoi
 
No but if you have been judged a danger to yourself or others the information should be sent to the authorities so you can not purchase anything that needs a legal check.
There should also be a legal way to get this changed if you are considered cured.
 
Which of the currently defined diagnoses that are criteria for mental health detention do you feel are invalid?
I'm absolutely not qualified to answer that question. But then again, neither are many mental health practicioners, and certainly nobody that sits on a bench is qualified make that determination. That's my point.

You mentioned phantom pain as an indication that other 'sciences', such as medicine, are inexact as well. That's absolutely true, but we generally don't disqualify someone from owning a firearm because they have Restless Legs Syndrome. ;)

Yet so many people oppose parole for violent offenders, support sex offender registry, etc. Go figure.
You're mixing apples and oranges. Criminal punishment is reserved for those that have demonstrably acted in a manner considered anti-social and unacceptable. The criminal has ostensibly predated upon society in some fashion (don't get me started on drug laws) and needs to serve some time in the penalty box as a result. As a general rule, most criminals are capable of discerning our societal/cultural differences between right and wrong.

That has nothing to do with involuntary committment due to an inability to discern right from wrong. If you're not ready to be left unsupervised in our society, well - you shouldn't be left unsupervised in our society.

Many individuals who are diagnosed with pervasive mental health disorders are in fact restricted from having a driver's license.
Forever, or are they allowed to regain their privledge to drive? How does that line up with the way that the F Troop handles stripping an individual of the RKBA? Heard of anyone successfully petitioning the .gov for a restoration of gun rights? It doesn't happen, and as I understand things the .gov has successfully ensured that it CAN'T happen by removing the funding for that little exercise. This is actually the crux of my concerns over mental health records being used as a basis for removal of an individuals RKBA. The system is stacked so heavily in terms of not readmitting the outcast that I'm very gunshy (if you'll forgive the pun) about making pariahs of people who at one point in their life were in need of help.

Cho could have just as easily (and probably more effectively) employed a few gallons of gas and a book of matches. Why do you suppose he did not Rbernie?
Probably because he wanted to inflict pain, to exact some revenge in a very personal manner and in a manner that was far more precise than simply starting a fire and hoping for the best. But I don't know for sure, and neither does anybody else.

My point was (and you've yet to chime in on this) that I suspect more folk kill themselves by driving the wrong way on a freeway and taking out Susie SoccerMom and her brood in a head-on collision than achieve equal results by going on a shootin' spree. Does that imply that cars and (to your example) matches and gascans should be prohibited items to anyone who would be currently prohibited from owning a firearm? If not - why not?

Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.
Adjudicated as a mental defective. (a) A determination by a court,
board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result
of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency,
condition, or disease:
(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or
(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.
(b) The term shall include--
(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not
guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles
50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a,
876b.
I know many people who, at some instant in time during their life, fit this legal description by virtue of being momentarily incapable of managing their own affairs. All, save one, in due time regained their center and have lived violence-free lives as successful members of their community. All of 'em have worth and value, and have the inelienable right to keep and bear arms for any lawful purpose.

If someone can't be trusted to own a firearm, they shouldn't be walking the street unsupervised.
 
In a past career, I worked as a licensed therapist. I will say that records shoud generally not be made part of an NICS check (I'd also favor getting rid of NICS, but that wasn't the question).

I don't think that having a mental illness is a good predictor of future violent behavior. Therefore, it is a poor reason to deny someone a basic right. It is easy to look back after an incident and say what should have been done, but it is hard to predict what someone will do.
 
I'm pretty much a fence sitter on this issue. On the one hand, I do believe that if a person has been "involuntarily committed" to an institution and judged to be a danger to others, than those records should be transferred to the states so that the person will be denied under NICS. However, if said person can prove that the condition is cured, then I don't think the firearms prohibition should last forever.

I also believe that if this policy becomes law, there MUST BE STRICT GUIDELINES AND PROCEDURES for disqualifying people, the potential for abuse must be minimized. Things like A-D-D should not be a disqualifyer under any circumstance. Conditions like schitzophrenia absolutely should be a disqualifyer.

On the other hand, the arguments about denying people's rights based on trivial conditions or technicalities holds merit and is a legitimate concern. Part of me thinks that this is just another way for the anti's to chip away at who is legally qualified to buy a gun.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, this issue is a can of worms.
 
Redneck with a 40 and other people feeling conflicted,

I have a simple rule that might help decide the issue.

Err on the side of freedom.

Evil men and those with afflicted minds will find a way to do the terrible things that they do. Gun owners need not feel any shame or guilt nor suffer under the current restrictions much less have our burdens increased.

Err on the side of freedom.

The costs of freedom are eventually felt by most of us. Don't let anyone convince you that giving up your rights piecemeal is the cure.

David
 
Last edited:
"Many individuals who are diagnosed with pervasive mental health disorders are in fact restricted from having a driver's license."

That's something I've never seen in 30+ years of working with individuals with disabilities.

John
 
A blanket approval of psych records, HE77 NO. However in cases like the whakjob at VT, he was legally declared a danger to himself and others in a court of law. That legal finding should play a roll in the "C" part of NICS.
 
This last form seems to allow them to deny your permit for any contact. I've hear reliable reports of people being denied for visiting a therapist when they were 12 to help with incidents of bedwetting (the person was in their 40's at time of denial, had only seen the therapist 3 times, with no other mental health interactions) and for seeing a therapist after the death of a spouse of 35 years (person was nowhere near a danger, just needed someone to talk out his feelings with and didn't want to burden his friends by being the 'guy that won't shut up about his dead wife'). The denial is not permanent and can be reversed with a letter from an MD saying you are no longer affected by the condition that caused you to seek mental health assistance.
This absolutely asinine and discriminatory. Tell me, does Hawaii only allow white people to possess firearms? Because their policies regarding what you have outlined make about as much sense. Why would these people need to see MDs? Being bereaved or wetting the bed when you were 12 doesn't have any bearing on whether or not a person is dangerous around guns.

What an absolutely mean-spirited, spiteful, and unethical law.
 
I'm absolutely not qualified to answer that question. But then again, neither are many mental health practicioners, and certainly nobody that sits on a bench is qualified make that determination. That's my point.

You do however, despite your lack of knowledge regarding the issue, feel qualified to denigrate the ability of all and sundry to speak to it. Those "on the bench" do not make the decision of their on accord. They are simply part of a larger system of decision making.

You mentioned phantom pain as an indication that other 'sciences', such as medicine, are inexact as well. That's absolutely true, but we generally don't disqualify someone from owning a firearm because they have Restless Legs Syndrome.

Nor do (did) we detain nor restrict one's rights for homosexuality, female arousal disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, agoraphobia, etc.


Quote:
Yet so many people oppose parole for violent offenders, support sex offender registry, etc. Go figure.

You're mixing apples and oranges. Criminal punishment is reserved for those that have demonstrably acted in a manner considered anti-social and unacceptable. The criminal has ostensibly predated upon society in some fashion (don't get me started on drug laws) and needs to serve some time in the penalty box as a result. As a general rule, most criminals are capable of discerning our societal/cultural differences between right and wrong.

It was your generalization firstly.

Secondly, the mentally ill are not?


That has nothing to do with involuntary committment due to an inability to discern right from wrong.

The overwhelming majority of commitals contain no such circumstances, yet the individual presents profound risk nonetheless. It is a tremendous bit of mythology that mental illness results in an inherent disability in the capacity to discern right and wrong.

If you're not ready to be left unsupervised in our society, well - you shouldn't be left unsupervised in our society.

As noted, the condition of instability is not static. A mentaly ill person's appropriateness for inependence today may not be so defineable in three months.

Beyond that, there are any number of individuals walking about society quite placidly in a state of complete independence who have absolutely no business with a firearm whatsoever; my mentally retarded adult neighbor comes to mind.



Forever, or are they allowed to regain their privledge to drive?

In the case of a mental health restriction it is typically permanent unless proven to be inappropriate by the subject of the restriction, viz., it is incumbent upon the patient.

How does that line up with the way that the F Troop handles stripping an individual of the RKBA? Heard of anyone successfully petitioning the .gov for a restoration of gun rights? It doesn't happen, and as I understand things the .gov has successfully ensured that it CAN'T happen by removing the funding for that little exercise. This is actually the crux of my concerns over mental health records being used as a basis for removal of an individuals RKBA. The system is stacked so heavily in terms of not readmitting the outcast that I'm very gunshy (if you'll forgive the pun) about making pariahs of people who at one point in their life were in need of help.

And I fully understand that concern. But by the same token there is absolutely no shortage of individuals suffering transient mental illness in any given society that I would wager would make you exceptionally uncomfortable were they armed. I am not talking about people "having a little trouble". I am talking about people who present real and persistent threat to the community; people who cannot by law be kept behind locked doors as suggested, and who do not exhibit these traits 100% of the time.



My point was (and you've yet to chime in on this) that I suspect more folk kill themselves by driving the wrong way on a freeway and taking out Susie SoccerMom and her brood in a head-on collision than achieve equal results by going on a shootin' spree. Does that imply that cars and (to your example) matches and gascans should be prohibited items to anyone who would be currently prohibited from owning a firearm? If not - why not?

Unlike a shooting spree, the nature of the act you've described makes it impossible to know for certain if there was intent. I have no idea of the answer to your question, and I suspect no one else does either. As I stated, most persons suffering persistent mental illness are limited in their ability to own and access vehicles regularly due to financial reasons. I would suggest that it is primarily a moot point, but if one is not sufficiently trustworthy to lawfully own a firearm due to mental illness, there is a pretty reasonable argument that they should not be licensed to drive.

Quote:
Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.
Adjudicated as a mental defective. (a) A determination by a court,
board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result
of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency,
condition, or disease:
(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or
(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.
(b) The term shall include--
(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not
guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles
50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a,
876b.

I know many people who, at some instant in time during their life, fit this legal description by virtue of being momentarily incapable of managing their own affairs. All, save one, in due time regained their center and have lived violence-free lives as successful members of their community. All of 'em have worth and value, and have the inelienable right to keep and bear arms for any lawful purpose.

Everyone has worth and value as far as I'm concerned, including many of those typically relegated to the status of subhuman by many of the members of this forum. As I stated, I don't believe the restriction should be inherent or automatic. There are specific instances however where I believe it is appropriate.

If someone can't be trusted to own a firearm, they shouldn't be walking the street unsupervised.

I fundamentally agree, but the process of intercepting them, where mental illness is concerned, is difficult due to the transient nature of the condition(s), and keeping them contained is legally impossible at this juncture in history.

It's just not that simple.
 
You do however, despite your lack of knowledge regarding the issue, feel qualified to denigrate the ability of all and sundry to speak to it.
Please show me where I did that.

You're taking my poke at the DSM and how it tends to track against social mores moreso than most other medical professions and extrapolating that into a dismissal and dengration of the entire mental health profession. Not only did I not do that nor have any intention of doing that, I've been far more restrained than most in dealing with the mental health profession. About the strongest thing I posted was:
Mental health is too inexacting in many ways to be used as an objective criteria for denying a person the right to self-defense.
From this I "denigrate the ability of all and sundry to speak to it"? I did no such thing.

I DO denigrate the ability of the .gov to use this information on an objective basis to render judgement as to who is allowed to retain their right to keep and bear arms.

Nor do (did) we detain nor restrict one's rights for homosexuality, female arousal disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, agoraphobia, etc.
But what's acting as the brake on that? The minute that mental health records (all records are included in the current legislation under study, not just involuntary committals) are allowed to bear upon an individual's 'suitability' to own a firearm, what's to stop the inclusion of these disorders in the list of disqualifying items? Think this is far-fetched? Look no further than the Lautenberg Amendment. Get caught in a nasty divorce and lose you temper in an argument over child custody, and (without ever having raised your hand) you find yourself slapped with a restraining order, accused of being an abusive spouse, and POOF! there go your gun rights for the rest of your life. That happens TODAY. I shudder to think about what could be done with more expansive mental health records.

But by the same token there is absolutely no shortage of individuals suffering transient mental illness in any given society that I would wager would make you exceptionally uncomfortable were they armed. I am not talking about people "having a little trouble". I am talking about people who present real and persistent threat to the community; people who cannot by law be kept behind locked doors as suggested, and who do not exhibit these traits 100% of the time.
That's life, in a nutshell. You're worried about the 1% extreme and I'm worried about the vast majority of folk who avail themselves of the mental health profession in good faith and with no long-term prognosis that would render them unsuitable for firearms ownership.

I would suggest that if is primarily a moot point, but if one is not sufficiently trustworthy to lawfully own a firearm due to mental illness, there is a pretty reasonable argument that they should not be licensed to drive.
We agree. So if legislation precludes one, why does it not preclude the other?

I fundamentally agree, but the process of intercepting them, where mental illness is concerned, is difficult due to the transient nature of the condition(s), and keeping them contained is legally impossible at this juncture in history.

It's just not that simple.
And that's my point. It's just not that simple. And yet legislators are trying to make it that simple, by linking mental health records to an individual right to keep and bear arms.

That's simply the wrong answer.

As OnlyOneAsterisk pointed out - we simply have to
ERR ON THE SIDE OF FREEDOM.
 
I'm going to make this short........ NO they should NOT be part of NICS. They are PRIVATE RECORDS. Cho wasn't picked up because the judge in his case didn't order him to involuntary treatment. That was the fault of the judge not the "system" Opening up health records to the buying of firearms will inevitably lead to further restrictions on 2A rights as well as major invasions of privacy.

Like ive said before, who determines "mental illness" and what medical records will be used to determine eligibility to excersize rights? my fear is that this could be used in a highly restrictive manner.
 
I'm voting no on this one, after reading all of the replies so far. My first impulse was to say no, but I figured I'd at least hear the arguments. The problem is that the underlying intent of denying someone self-protection because they've had contact with a mental health professional is a nannyesque impulse. If a person is sufficiently dangerous to themselves or others to be automatically denied, then they're dangerous enough to be in a hospital. Giving in to the impulse to restrict indulges it, and ensures that it'll be just one more step toward the kind of confiscation that took place in the UK after Dunblane. Weapons were even confiscated without compensation, but the process really began back in the 1920s. The UK public is now completely disarmed.

I have a friend with a PhD in psychology who has been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the BBC that he feels that anyone who even suggests that concealed carry on the VT campus might have been a good idea is "mentally deranged", and he assures me that this opinion is widespread.

If the NRA is backing such a law then they'll not get any more dues from me, no matter how finely nuanced their argument is.

If you oppose this law then the place to write is Congressman Dingell's office, and the NRA.
 
Please show me where I did that.

I'm absolutely not qualified to answer that question. But then again, neither are many mental health practicioners, and certainly nobody that sits on a bench is qualified make that determination. That's my point.

Given your acknowledged lack of qualification to speak to issues of mental health, what is it precisely that qualifies you to render decisive evaluative judgments as to the ability of mental health clinicians to determine risk secondary to mental illness, or judges to render appropriately informed decisions within the context of a multidisciplinary environment? Surely Rbernie not the fact that you have been exposed to anecdote… stories of the system’s failures?

Let me explain something to you; the mental health system in this country is taxed to its absolute outer limit. There is no room, not one linear inch, for decisions of opportunity or nebulous political benefit. It is virtually impossible to obtain interventive services in any other than a dire and emergent context (read serious suicide attempt where there are no family supports to offer supervision, erratic behavior to the point that imminent death is likely, etc.). Law enforcement and Mental Health regularly come into conflict with one another because MH is legally unable to detain persons who LE feel strongly are about to kill themselves or someone else. People do not get committed “just because”. It is difficult and expensive to accomplish, and the likely outcome is that the patient will be released LONG before anyone feels that they are actually ready in order to make room for the next patient, and in order to comply with the laws that protect their rights.

Walk down the street in the downtown area of any major city and take a hard look at who IS NOT being detained. If you are being seriously considered for Emergency Detention in this country in this day and age, you are a mess.


I DO denigrate the ability of the .gov to use this information on an objective basis to render judgement as to who is allowed to retain their right to keep and bear arms.

So do I. And there are bound to be problems, as in any and every other system operated by the agents of the people. But I submit to you that this in and of itself is not sufficient justification to simply look the other way whilst proven mentally unstable persons arm themselves.

Quote:
Nor do (did) we detain nor restrict one's rights for homosexuality, female arousal disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, agoraphobia, etc.
But what's acting as the brake on that?

The MH system is becoming generally less restrictive, not more. The system is overburdened as it is. No one is looking to drum up business. The criteria for detention is plausible and demonstrated imminent danger to self or others. There is realistically no way to demonstrate imminent danger to self or others through Transvestic Fetishism, OCD (unless you obsessively and compulsively attempt to slash your wrists), etc.

The minute that mental health records (all records are included in the current legislation under study, not just involuntary committals) are allowed to bear upon an individual's 'suitability' to own a firearm, what's to stop the inclusion of these disorders in the list of disqualifying items?

I agree. I don’t believe that records in and of themselves should be automatically subject to review. I believe that it should be a process of active endeavor on the part of law enforcement, MH, etc. See my prior post on the matter.

That's life, in a nutshell. You're worried about the 1% extreme and I'm worried about the vast majority of folk who avail themselves of the mental health profession in good faith and with no long-term prognosis that would render them unsuitable for firearms ownership.

In the situation I advocated, viz., an active petition of the Court by LE, MH, etc., there is exceptionally little likelihood that those majority of good folk going through a little spell would have any issue whatsoever. It is the long-term and persistent problem children that repeatedly come to the attention of police and MH that are likely to be identified.

And yes I worry about the “1%”; the 1% of mental health patients, the 1% of violent criminals, the 1% of sex offenders, etc. They are not the biggest problem by far, but they do need to be addressed.

Quote:
I would suggest that if is primarily a moot point, but if one is not sufficiently trustworthy to lawfully own a firearm due to mental illness, there is a pretty reasonable argument that they should not be licensed to drive.
We agree. So if legislation precludes one, why does it not preclude the other?

I does in many circumstances. In most states one’s d/l application asks the question of mental stability. Enforcement is generally lax however. Should it be an issue, normatively speaking? Yes, I believe so.

Quote:
I fundamentally agree, but the process of intercepting them, where mental illness is concerned, is difficult due to the transient nature of the condition(s), and keeping them contained is legally impossible at this juncture in history.

It's just not that simple.
And that's my point. It's just not that simple. And yet legislators are trying to make it that simple, by linking mental health records to an individual right to keep and bear arms.

That's simply the wrong answer.

I agree. But that is not to say that there are no other alternatives.
 
Should "mental health records" be part of NICS? Not in my opinion. Should a court finding where you are able to present evidence in your defense and have counsel that finds you are a danger to yourself or others or a court-ordered involuntary commitment be part of NICS records? Yes.
 
I also think that the best defense is offense. Someone ought to introduce a bill, at least in VA, that blocks universities from preventing permit holders to carry. That, at least, would compel the opposition to do more than name call, and people could hear arguments like those of Eugene Volokh in favor of CCW on campus. Otherwise people will just get the impression that the only possible reaction to these kinds of events are more restrictive laws, and the process will continue until we reach our Dunblane.
 
I voted 'yes', but I agree with the poster who said, very early on,
'define mental health records'. Clearly there are privacy concerns in such a situation, and they're not trumped by a background check that your average brain-dead can circumvent.

If you are committed to a mental health facility by court order, or are found to be mentally unstable by a competent medical authority and it is affirmed by legal authority, it should absolutely come up on NICS and bar you from purchase.

That said, there needs to be a method of release from disability for those who are wrongly committed or who are genuinely healed (for instance, brain tumors can cause bizarre psychological problems and can be removed, sometimes with the effect of a complete alleviation of symptoms). You have to work pretty hard to get committed involuntarily, but I'm sure that some people are put there wrongly. So long as they actually are sane, that incident should not bar them from possession of firearms.

Mike
 
Should "mental health records" be part of NICS? Not in my opinion. Should a court finding where you are able to present evidence in your defense and have counsel that finds you are a danger to yourself or others or a court-ordered involuntary commitment be part of NICS records? Yes.

+1

And, while many will undoubtedly disagree, IMHO there should be a facility in place whereby LE, MH, et al have the ability to petition the Court for a competency hearing and firearm restriction based upon repeated and persistent contact and demonstrations of danger to self and/or others due to uncontrolled (if transient) mental illness, regardless of whether the individual currently resides independently in the community, in a secure facility... or drives a car, rides a bike, or glides to his destination in a Radio Flyer.
 
Excerpt from SF Chronicle / SFGATE; April 22, 2007.

PATIENTS' RIGHTS VS. PUBLIC SAFETY
Virginia Tech shootings highlight how mental health laws that prohibit forced treatment make it difficult to intervene

Victoria Colliver, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, April 22, 2007


Even after Rae Belle Gambs' son held a gun to her head, he was not considered an imminent enough threat to himself or others to be forced into treatment for schizophrenia.

After years of trying to get help for her adult son, the woman from Atascadero (San Luis Obispo County) thought she had no choice other than to pursue criminal charges that ultimately landed him in jail in 1998, where he received treatment for four months.

For Gambs, last week's shootings at Virginia Tech highlight major failings in our nation's mental health laws: Long-standing laws protecting patients' rights make it difficult for authorities and family members to intervene and order a loved one to receive treatment.

"It absolutely breaks my heart and makes me so sad that so many people died because we, as a society, didn't treat this man," said Gambs, San Luis Obispo County's president of the National Alliance on Mental Illness of California. Her son, now 34, lives in community housing and is successfully stabilized on medication.

Emerging details about Seung-Hui Cho's interactions with the mental health system more than two years before the shootings have stirred up long-standing debate around how state and local authorities should handle mentally ill people who refuse treatment but show signs of potentially dangerous behavior.

Some experts and family members say scarce resources combined with well-intentioned laws that reversed decades of inhumane treatment of the mentally ill give them few options to prevent patients from hurting themselves or others. Other mental health advocates say involuntary treatment frightens away people who might otherwise seek help.

"If there's any one issue that polarizes the mental health community, it's forced treatment," said Sally Zinman, executive director of the California Network of Mental Health Clients, an advocacy group vehemently opposed to imposing treatment on the mentally ill and linking the disease with violence.

While experts say Cho showed signs of a mental illness -- possibly paranoia and psychosis -- they are quick to point out that the vast majority of people with emotional diseases are not violent or are more likely to harm themselves than others.

Concern over potential suicide led an acquaintance of Cho's, in December 2005, to contact police, who referred Cho to a mental health center. Counselors petitioned a local magistrate for a temporary detention order based on an initial assessment that Cho might be a danger to himself or others.

The order required that Cho be evaluated further at an off-campus psychiatric hospital, but he was released after a brief stay and ordered to receive outpatient treatment. Officials have not confirmed whether Cho received further treatment.

California has a historic role in establishing the laws that restrict involuntary treatment. The law behind Cho's temporary hold and subsequent release was modeled after a bill passed in this state almost 40 years ago to stop the abuse of people who were labeled mentally ill and thrown indefinitely into state hospitals.

The Lanterman-Petris-Short Act, a product of the civil rights movement signed by California's then-Gov. Ronald Reagan in 1967, required that a judge determine a patient to be an immediate threat before ordering an involuntarily commitment. Such commitments are limited to 72 hours, with a subsequent evaluation and court order needed to justify a longer stay.

The law coincided with the closure of state hospitals. Later, funding and support for community psychiatric services and board-and-care were severely curtailed, leaving many mentally ill people with fewer places to go. With insufficient outpatient resources, many people with serious illnesses ended up on the streets or in jail. Even with the passage of recent reforms, the problem persists.

Some health experts argue the pendulum has swung too far in favor of protecting patient rights, giving authorities and family members few options to protect potentially violent individuals.

"Being completely and absolutely overcome with illness -- walking around and thinking you're on Mars and that everyone is a Venusian -- is not enough to get someone into treatment. They have to be in physical danger at the time," said Jonathan Stanley, assistant director of the Treatment Advocacy Center, a national group based in Arlington, Va., that supports forced treatment.

That standard often prevents authorities from stepping in until after something terrible has happened.

"A person has to commit a crime -- there has to be blood on the ground -- before we can act," said Randall Hagar, director of governmental relations for the California Psychiatric Association. "That's a pretty darn high bar."

Hagar said the requirement of imminent danger is too strict because people are generally being observed for a short period of time.

"The person who can hold it together for 20 minutes while they're being interviewed by a police officer on a street corner may be highly dangerous," he said, "but they can evade detention."

As a mother, Gambs said she was mystified by a system that encouraged her to allow her adult son to become homeless and ultimately jailed before he could be hospitalized against his will. She said police officers actually encouraged her to let her son live on the streets in hopes he would be arrested and get help.

"My personal opinion is it costs too much money, and we don't want to treat them," she said of the mentally ill. "It is cheaper to keep them in jail."

The unintended consequence of patient rights laws, such as the criminalization of the mentally ill, is a growing movement among states to find a middle ground.

In 2003, California passed a forced outpatient law known as "Laura's Law," after Laura Wilcox, a 19-year-old college student from Nevada County. She was shot to death by a man with paranoid delusions who refused his family's efforts to get help.

The law, fashioned after one in New York called "Kendra's Law," which is named after a 32-year-old woman who was pushed in front of a subway train in 1999 by a schizophrenic man who was off his medications, requires those deemed likely to become dangerous if left untreated to receive outpatient care.

But the California law, now more than 3 years old, is not being enforced because it requires that counties show that they are not cutting back on voluntary services to pay for involuntary care.

Forty-two states now have some ability to require outpatient treatment with varying degrees of effectiveness.

But forcing outpatient care isn't acceptable to some mental health advocates.

"The threat of that forced treatment turns people away from the system and causes them to choose not to engage in mental health services," said Zinman, of the California Network of Mental Health Clients.

A recent California reform that seems to draw wider support from mental health experts is Proposition 63, which was passed by voters in 2004.

Known as the "millionaire's tax," Prop. 63 collects almost $1 billion a year for mental health programs by placing a 1 percent tax on Californians with incomes greater than $1 million. Supporters view it as a way to provide funding for community-based mental health services, thus making up for the broken promises made almost 40 years ago.

"Clearly, something is happening in California," said Dr. Ken Duckworth, medical director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness, who described the new law as "awesome." "The voters of California somehow assessed the care system in California was inadequate for poor people."

Because the law is new, its effects are unclear, but mental health advocates say it gives them hope.

"California is unique in that there's this opportunity to put in place a whole system that would support people where they're at in a preventive way," Zinman said, "and avoid people escalating and getting worse and worse."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How California treats mentally ill
-- More than 50,000 mentally ill people live on the streets and 20,000 are imprisoned.

-- An estimated 300,000 adults with serious mental illnesses don't have access to needed services.

-- The state spends about $4 billion annually on services, most of any state.

-- The state has lost 30 percent of its inpatient hospital beds over 10 years.

Sources: California Psychiatric Association; California Mental Health Planning Council; National Alliance on Mental Illness; California Hospital Association

E-mail Victoria Colliver at [email protected].
 
Pretty easy to go with "Err on the side of Freedom". At this point, I'm inclined to say that any infringement (i.e. please abolish NICS) is bad.

If a person is known evil (i.e. already a multiple murderer, etc.) or is obviously dangerous to others but not sane, why are they free to move among the flock?

[and yes, most of the flock are sheep, not sheepdogs; just IMO]
 
Given your acknowledged lack of qualification to speak to issues of mental health, what is it precisely that qualifies you to render decisive evaluative judgments as to the ability of mental health clinicians to determine risk secondary to mental illness, or judges to render appropriately informed decisions within the context of a multidisciplinary environment? Surely Rbernie not the fact that you have been exposed to anecdote… stories of the system’s failures?
Direct and personal experience, starting in 1973 or thereabouts. I have a copy of the DSM-IV on a bookshelf around here somewhere just in case I need to refresh my memory. :)

Just as engineering has specialties, so does the mental health community. I no more expect the average mental health practicioner to be able to discuss the relative goodness of each and every section in the DSM-IV than I expect an embedded realtime software engineer to be able to discuss the relative merits of a Controller pattern vs. a Chain of Authority pattern. While design patterns (e.g. Controller, Chain of Authority) are as much a part of Software Engineering in general as MOV operations, they are simply not a notion that is germane to a realtime assembly-language programmer.

You challenged me with the following:
Which of the currently defined diagnoses that are criteria for mental health detention do you feel are invalid?
I pleaded honest ignorance - my experiences and a copy of the DSM-IV does not make me qualified, only opinionated. I then stated that many in the mental health community were also incapable of addressing that question. Do you really wish to maintain that I was incorrect in that statement?

This speaks volumes to why I've been disagreeing with you. I do not want mental health RECORDS (created by folk who may or may not have subject matter expertise in the specifics at hand) made a part of NICS. That's not to say that I want to place a loaded pistol in the hand of someone who has clearly demonstrated a desire or inability to NOT harm themselves or others.

Let me explain something to you; the mental health system in this country is taxed to its absolute outer limit. There is no room, not one linear inch, for decisions of opportunity or nebulous political benefit.
I do not doubt this to be true. From your responses, I gather that you are fighting in this battle. Good luck, and all that.

But that is tangential to the question at hand. The issue being debated (I thought) was whether mental health RECORDS should be made a part of the NICS database and ostensibly used to approve or deny authorization to buy a firearm. This has little to do with involuntary detention, and a lot to do with all sorts of far more mundane issues that *could* be used to deny authorization to purchase a firearm.

Should "mental health records" be part of NICS? Not in my opinion. Should a court finding where you are able to present evidence in your defense and have counsel that finds you are a danger to yourself or others or a court-ordered involuntary commitment be part of NICS records? Yes.
I can live with that.
 
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